Why do you think the majority of funding for Palestinain refugees comes from the US ? Many wealthy Arab countries won’t get involved and certainly not when it comes to putting their hands in their pockets.

What does that prove? That wealthy Arab countries (meaning – oil-rich autocratic monarchies) aren’t in the altruism industry, especially when it comes to building constitutional nonsectarian democratic-ish republics^? Well, that’s not a surprise, and it doesn’t show that the Palestinians are a reprehensible people that deserve what they get.

I don’t think that the demonisation of either Israelis or Palestinians as a less worthy group of people than any other people on the planet does anyone any good. A passing familiarity with 20th century history will explain why. I happen to think that people everywhere are more or less the same: a few very good people, a few complete scumbags, and the majority in the middle who are mostly worried about trying to have a nice little house, a decent job, a good future for their kids, and just maybe some time on the weekend to play dominos/argue in cafes/be rad to the power of sick at a trail centre. The institutions and environments in which people have to live and work are what makes the difference.

^ like what the Palestinian Constitution provides for the State of Palestine.

Hammas and a significant portion of the Palestinians rejected the Oslo agreement for a two state solution. They are only interested in a single Palestinian state and the destruction of Isreal via armed Jihad, this being exactly what it says in their written constitution. The naivety of so many so far away is quite stunning

This is the second time that you have posted something to that effect on this thread.

It is untrue that the Palestinian constitution calls for the destruction of Israel via armed Jihad. I think you know that this is untrue, which makes it a lie.

he was lying?

Well Mr 100 % never gets things wrong – have you noticed how he has been asked about this what is four times and not once answered it – head in sand action to facts is unconvincing

Jamba – your contempt for the truth is well known and documented but this re-writing of history is mind-boggling. You do realise it was Arafat who participated in the Oslo process, don’t you?

Its amusing that he ignore the Israeli admitting it still blames the Palestinains and then manages to get the participants wrong

Given his utter contempt/disregard for reality/facts whatTF is the point engaging with him?

When the rockets stop the air strikes stop, it’s quite a simple correlation.

Respectfully you are so challenged you cannot even say what you mean 😀

Correlation NEVER implies causality and you are clearly trying to say that the air strikes are directly related to the bombing and if they stop bombing they will stop air strikes – its not a correlation its causality. WHy have i had to explain this to you? Its very basic stuff.
Its like watching a slow motion car crash watching you do this but it was gems like that that made me think were just taking the piss.
Alas I was wrong you actually cannot even say what you mean to say and you ignore him clearly saying he stopped it and then blame the wrong Palestinains. Given this engaging with someone so far away from the facts is pointless
You really should be embarrassed by this because if you aint trolling then well really.

Junkyard – lazarus
He is going the way of chewk for me in that I have stopped reading their posts as I dont think you can actually have a debate, intelligent or otherwise, with either of them.
Its just someone stating what they think without any reference to reality or the facts
JHJ without the humour or the awareness basically

Hey JY are you using user blocker? Please use it to block yourself out. 😆

I offer completely different views from you because you are wrong that’s why … Ya, you know you are wrong.

Logic wise you can present as many references as you like but at the end of the day they still don’t stack up … it still does not make sense to anyone on the street to try to influence a tiny bit of desert sand that is Israel or Palestine … 😆

You are so distance from reality of normal people that it is worth challenging your views.

“You Shall Not Pass!” said Gandalf the grey …

Humour? You have one? 😆

DrJ and JY, well I was on the wrong side of the Greek argument as the EU caved in as I suspected they would and poured good money after bad in granting Greece further gifts that they’ll never pay back. I was correct in predicting this outcome.

On the Middle East I’m a supporter of UK, EU policy and most importantly US policy. Those in a position of authority see things just as I do. Keep on ranting though, you seem to get something out of it.

The US has pursueded Jordan who are the agreed authority over the site to accept Israels long stated position that they have no plans to allow Jews to pray at the Jewish holy site that is Temple Mount.

re the greece thread you are reinterpreting it to fit with your filter but we did all that on that thread. Interestingly you make no mention of your prediction over what would happen to the left wing govt at the recent election where you predicted their defeat and they won….interestingly selective as you were on the thread when folk kept mention it – bit lie you have failed to comment on the video despite invites. .
FFS on this thread you have the PM involved contradicting your view as you blame a group that did not participate in the process. Honestly I are not ranting just standing their with a dropped jaw staring incredulously
FWiw my personal favourite was when you cited 9/11 as the cause of the Irish peace process despite happening nearly a decade afterwards. Respectfully its like debating with JHJ and to save offence I shall decline form engaging safe to say I disagree.

ANy chance you could put in a little effort to learn what this fallacy is? I am tired of citing it – though at least time you did not just cite yourself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Junkyard – lazarus
ANy chance you could put in a little effort to learn what this fallacy is? I am tired of citing it – though at least time you did not just cite yourself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Yours are definitely biases … 😆

You do like to bombard people with your “logic” and “references” don’t you? 😆

Let me try to explain and describe your logic … this is how you come across …

For example, it’s like saying statistically there is a significant relationship between this variables and that etc … yes, your argument is logical and yes statistically you are right. However, you completely missed the point because statistically you are correct but you are doing the wrong test/study whatever … 😆

Okay might be poor example from me but I like reading your comments.

I cannot put a finger on it but something is not right with your logic and consistency … you know when something is not right but you don’t know what but it is … ya, your arguments are exactly like that.

Like I said before … Why bother with a piece of land that is desert sand? Ya, that! 😯 The logic does not stack up even when you can present some sort of “statistical significance” in them … 😆

This ^^^ is what happens when the actual big-hitters get banned.

On the Middle East I’m a supporter of UK, EU policy and most importantly US policy. Those in a position of authority see things just as I do. Keep on ranting though, you seem to get something out of it.

I notice that you have simply ignored the occasions on this thread on which you have been identified as trading in things that are untrue. As debating tactics go, ploughing on regardless isn’t a bad one. However, it does undermine your ceaseless appeals to authority (“I read top secret geopolitical analysis all day, hobnob with MI5 and am better informed than anyone here”) when you’re seen making schoolboy howlers on basic facts.

Yes obviously the governments of the US, UK and the EU are getting those facts wrong too on which they are basing their policy. For every Netanyahu quote I’ll show you a suicide bombing on a bus or a Tel Aviv nightclub or a written constitution calling for the destruction of Isreal. The two state solution is dead, the Palestinians wanted to literally kill it off and they’ve succeeded.

The US has supported an agreement between the Isrealis and the Jordanians who administer the site to reaffirm Isreals long held position that it will prevent Jews from praying at the Temple Mount. The US also welcomes Isreals suggestion to install CCTV at the site. The Palestinains are against CCTV as they think it’s a trick. It will be a “trick” as it will show people what really goes on, ie no praying by Jews, hardly any Jewish visitors and frequent mobs of Palestinians throwing rocks from the square

It will be a “trick” as it will show people what really goes on, ie no praying by Jews, hardly any Jewish visitors and frequent mobs of Palestinians throwing rocks from the square

So,people don’t know what goes on…except you obviously!

Is Palestinian violence all based on a desire to wipe out Isreal or is any of it justified in your opinion Jambalaya?

Pretty sure that is exactly what Hamas calls for, article 7 of their Charter iirc.

President Abbas – partner in peace no less, reported to have said:
““We welcome every drop of blood spilled in Jerusalem. This is pure blood, clean blood, blood on its way to Allah. With the help of Allah, every martyr will be in heaven, and every wounded will get his reward.”
link

duplicate

For every Netanyahu quote I’ll show you a suicide bombing on a bus or a Tel Aviv nightclub or a written constitution calling for the destruction of Isreal.

Aye cause that’s the comparison that should be made…

How about comparing like for like.

. As debating tactics go, ploughing on regardless isn’t a bad one. However, it does undermine your ceaseless appeals to authority (“I read top secret geopolitical analysis all day, hobnob with MI5 and am better informed than anyone here”) when you’re seen making schoolboy howlers on basic facts.

then he posts underneath again and makes no mention again of being factually wrong again whilst making another appeal to authority – he literally cannot learn basic stuff.

the Palestinians wanted to literally kill it off and they’ve succeeded.

Yet the person who admits to killing it off was the Israel leader and yet again you are still blaming them – on the plus side at least you did not call them Hamas – small steps for the stupid eh
SO then appeals to authority then – is it to hard for you to grasp – WHY DO YOU DO THEM THEY ARE FALLACIOUS – WHY OH WHY CAN YOU NOT LEARN THIS ?

Thankfully there are no bad quotes from any Israeli about the Palestinians and killing them.
No one is that one sides – well except the two zionists on this thread – to fail to acknowledge that BOTH sides do bad things
A long list from the one sided ignoring the zionist shortcomings is a bit pointless

that page glitch thingy post

Junkyard, by the same token there seems to be lack of acknowledgement on the STW threads I’ve seen that the violence is two sided as it appears only Israel is ever painted in a negative light.

In addition, Zionists come in many forms. You don’t have to be an Orthodox Jew living in the West Bank to believe that the State of Israel has a right to exist.

I don’t think there is any doubt that there is blame on both sides, and I don’t see anyone here claiming that the Palestinians are pure as snow. However, there is a huge difference between the violence of youths with stones and a state with tanks and planes, and in the context in which that violence happens – the brutal suppression of a population and flagrant disregard for their basic rights.

unkyard, by the same token there seems to be lack of acknowledgement on the STW threads I’ve seen that the violence is two sided as it appears only Israel is ever painted in a negative light.

Yes you zionist really do struggle with this everytime it comes up all the others accept this- both sides do bad things – see gonzy for an example- and you zionists just moan about the bias

Zionism is not defined as thinking israel has the right to exist is it 🙄

So your turn to condemn Israel for some of the bad stuff it does

Feel free to make a list ranging from the nukes, to assassinations abroad to controlling food, to land grabs, to illegal settlement

nim – Member
Junkyard, by the same token there seems to be lack of acknowledgement on the STW threads I’ve seen that the violence is two sided as it appears only Israel is ever painted in a negative light.

In addition, Zionists come in many forms. You don’t have to be an Orthodox Jew living in the West Bank to believe that the State of Israel has a right to exist.

There is wrong on both side, but one side is more wrong that the other.

It’s not 2 sides of the same coin. much is made of the Israeli right to resist. What about the palestinians right to exist.

FWIW, i think the 2 state solution mentioned earlier is un attainable and just adds to the deadlock. It should be 1 state, 1 man 1 vote. Call it what you will. But the important thing is equal rights and a combined democracy.

The Israeli state has proven that it is unwavering in its expansionism. Fine, you want to expand, take the people as well and extend the right to citizenship to those in the refugee camps.

such a state will still have it’s problems with extremeists, from both sides, but the moderates from both side, will be able to overcome them if they worked together without any barriers.

The 2 state solution is a busted flush.

Junkyard, by the same token there seems to be lack of acknowledgement on the STW threads I’ve seen that the violence is two sided as it appears only Israel is ever painted in a negative light.
In addition, Zionists come in many forms. You don’t have to be an Orthodox Jew living in the West Bank to believe that the State of Israel has a right to exist.

Yes the Palestinians aren’t blameless but there’s only one side holding all the cards here. One is a rich (rogue) nuclear state backed to the hilt by the US, the other isn’t. Only one side is routinely stealing land and abusing basic human rights.

It’s like people who claim the news should give equal balance to both sides of the climate change debate.

A quick look at the number of civilian casualties on each side is pretty telling.

*waits for a Zionist to explain how it’s their fault they got killed*

Dr J – you forgot the recent and ongoing stabbings and car rammings of men, women and children.

Israel is far from perfect but 20% appx are Israeli Arabs who have full democratic rights but do not have to do national service although an increasing number volunteer to do so. However if I were a Christian Arab right now, Israel is probably the safest Middle East country to be in. Same goes for gay Arabs.

Junkyard. Of course I disagree with some of the things Israel does/has done.
I also disagree with the UK govt at times.

“Yes you zionists” – Nice.

As for what Zionism is, self determination in the ancestral homeland which has gone from once being a pipe dream to now being the State of Israel.

Israel is far from perfect but 20% appx are Israeli Arabs who have full democratic rights but do not have to do national service although an increasing number volunteer to do so. However if I were a Christian Arab right now, Israel is probably the safest Middle East count

I don’t understand the point here. Yes there are some good things about Israel but does that justify their numerous and flagrant abuses of the human rights of Palestinians?

Is all of this made up?

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il

Israel likes to promote itself s a beacon of liberal democracy in the Middle East but then gets incredibly upset when it’s held to the standards of behaviour of other democracies.

nim – Member

As for what Zionism is, self determination in the ancestral homeland which has gone from once being a pipe dream to now being the State of Israel. (at the expense of the local inhabitants.)

FTFY.

@gonzy, I looked back and can’t find which are the two questions you are referring to. I’d be happy to try and give an answer or express an opinion .

Jambalaya the 2 questions i am referring to are below

Are you saying you hate Jews because of their occupation (I use the world loosely) of Palestine?

Do you have any beef with the Arab governments who instead of accepting the 1947 UN partition plan swore to wipe Israel off the map, fpand fought three wars trying to do so, before abandoning the Palestinians to their fate?

And as for Zionism – I think you could see it as an understandable response to persecution etc but if anyone believes they have a special right to live in a particular place (and kick out the people living there) because they are god’s chosen people…

Israel is far from perfect but 20% appx are Israeli Arabs who have full democratic rights

FULL – you sure about that ?

Many Arab citizens feel that the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits them to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies, impacting their perception of the de jure versus de facto quality of their citizenship.[179] The joint document The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel, asserts: “Defining the Israeli State as a Jewish State and exploiting democracy in the service of its Jewishness excludes us, and creates tension between us and the nature and essence of the State.” The document explains that by definition the “Jewish State” concept is based on ethnically preferential treatment towards Jews enshrined in immigration (the Law of Return) and land policy (the Jewish National Fund), and calls for the establishment of minority rights protections enforced by an independent anti-discrimination commission.[180]
A 2004 report by Mossawa, an advocacy center for Palestinian-Arab citizens of Israel, states that since the events of October 2000, 16 Arabs had been killed by security forces, bringing the total to 29 victims of “institutional violence” in four years.[181] Ahmed Sa’adi, in his article on The Concept of Protest and its Representation by the Or Commission, states that since 1948 the only protestors to be killed by the police have been Arabs.[182]
Yousef Munayyer, an Israeli citizen and the executive director of The Jerusalem Fund, wrote that Palestinians only have varying degrees of limited rights in Israel. He states that although Palestinians make up about 20 percent of Israel’s population, less than 7 percent of the budget is allocated to Palestinian citizens. He describes the 1.5 million Arab citizens of Israel as second-class citizens while four million more are not citizens at all. He states that a Jew from any country can move to Israel but a Palestinian refugee, with a valid claim to property in Israel, cannot. Munayyer also described the difficulties he and his wife faced when visiting the country

Not really able to build houses on occupied land either are they

Of course I disagree with some of the things Israel does/has done.
I also disagree with the UK govt at times.

Oh well done you said your criticisms of it were just like your criticisms of here as all the illegal shit Israel does – including state sanctioned murders on foreign soil-= is just like the disagreement here

Perhaps you could be explicit and tell us what illegal stuff it does you most disapprove of – is it collective punishments ?

For every Netanyahu quote I’ll show you a suicide bombing on a bus or a Tel Aviv nightclub or a written constitution calling for the destruction of Isreal.

yes Jambalaya, and for each one of those i can show you a multitude of images and videos of dead Palestinian civilians….the vast majority of them are children.
you know for all the wrongs that the Palestinians have done, Israels response is massively disproportionate.

the Israeli attitude/policy is:
“if you fire one of your crude rockets at us, our Iron dome system will blow it out of the sky…we will then blow the shit out of your towns. we will give any civilians 30 seconds to vacate the building before we hit it…if you’re too slow to get out then thats your fault innit?
we will decide that we have a right to defend ourselves and in order to do that we need more land and territory so we will forcibly take/steal it from you…if you have the audacity to complain about this then we will do as above….bomb the shit out of you. if that happens you only have yourselves to blame.
we have a divine god given right to this holy land and therefore we will take what we want, how we want and when we want. you as a Palestinian have no claim to this land…even if your family has been living there for centuries…a Jew from anywhere in the world who has never set foot in Israel and has no connections to Israel has a greater right to this and than you.
and if you complain about this….well read the above as the consequences are the same whatever you Palestinians do…because the zionist state of Israel belives that the only good Palestinian is a dead one.”

Yes obviously the governments of the US, UK and the EU are getting those facts wrong too on which they are basing their policy.

This is actually a masterclass in “appeals to authority”. When challenged on his use of factually untrue statements, he says that! I do not think that the U.S., UK and EU are unaware of the facts; I think you are! And the examples of you being unaware of the facts (or, perhaps, just lying) are on this thread.

(As an aside, we could also note that according to you, the EU is 100% reliable and insightful about stuff that happens in Israel about prayers, but 100% unreliable and misguided when it comes to stuff that happens in Greece on the Euro).

I don’t see anyone here claiming that the Palestinians are pure as snow.

I don’t think it’s helpful to start assigning collective guilt to entire peoples, whether Israeli or Palestinian, because that opens the way for collective punishment and a moral hierarchy of peoples. I don’t see why an ordinary resident of Tel Aviv or Ramallah should bear responsibility for terrorist acts executed by angry hirsute men.

BigDummy – Member
This ^^^ is what happens when the actual big-hitters get banned.

Big hitter? What is that? I don’t play tennis.
I am not a big hitter but merely asking questions.
Big hitter got banned because they threaten other forum user(s).
I don’t threaten other user nor do I take offense personally.
I am no troll too because even if my questions may seen provocative, they are provocative only to those who only see things from one dimension. i.e. their perspective only and theirs is the only one “right” perspective. I like to challenge their “right” perspective because they would hijack a forum like this to forward their propaganda. I want to balance things up and to understand more so like to challenge their views… coz they sound rather illogical to me.

In relation to the topic, all I have to say is that they are illogical, inconsistent and bias in the way they present their views. I mean why want to intervene in a place full of sand that does not even have any relation to them? True human nature are never nice.

Why illogical so here are the reasons:

Do they live there – No.
Do they have any economy tie – No.
Do they advocate violence towards each other – No.
Do they encourage each other to fight – No.
Do they have relatives that live there – No. I am sure.
Are they Palestinians – No.
Are they Israelis – No, but I am not sure.
Do they owe either side a living – No.
Do they have the same religion – possibly No because most of you are non-believers anyway.

To summarise, they have no connection to that land or people and yet they trying to defend that piece of land as if their lives depend on it.

Logically I can only deduce that these people are bias towards certain people, although they consider themselves fair, their true nature is always very different. i.e. to use another form of arguments to hide their true intention and trying to influence a particular event because they think they can regardless of the end result.

The other thing that puzzle me is the fact that they seem to have some sort of euphoric empathy (new description! new term!a bit like getting addicted to legal/illegal high or something …) which I constantly witness in certain people. For example, a bit like the case of Angela Merkel where she was logical until the onset of her euphoric empathy … the result is a massive “do good” factor with unknown long term result. That is not logical. 😆

No, I am no troll nor am I trying to threaten others.

I am here to ask difficult questions perhaps in my own way but questions I shall ask.

😛

edit: ya, I like the term euphoric empathy …

People should really stop ‘debating’ with jambalaya. I’m trying to stop reading his posts (already gave up on chewkw’s a long time ago but they are longer and easier to spot).

I know it’s tempting to call jambalaya out on his routine fallacious arguments and biased nonsense but it’s utterly pointless. Rational arguments don’t work against someone with such monumental faith in how right they are about everything.

Well, this, really. Particularly in the case of this Palestine argument. Pretty much everything that anyone says is cut and pasted from the last time we discussed it (with some noble exceptions like gonzy). Easier just to pass on to discuss the Gregg’s menu.

Watch a little of the UK’s Colonel Kemp’s views on the matter.

“I believe that on the basis of everything that I’ve seen, that everything the IDF does to protect civilians and to stop the death of innocent civilians is a great deal more than any other army, and it’s more than the British and the American armies.”

Yes, well if he says it, it must be true.

Not sure I’ve seen as many appeals to authority on one thread before. I’m sure Facts from the Jambaverse will soon set me straight with plenty more.

grum – Member
People should really stop ‘debating’ with jambalaya. I’m trying to stop reading his posts (already gave up on chewkw’s a long time ago but they are longer and easier to spot).

What I don’t understand is people keep mentioning me by saying they ignore me. If you ignore me then don’t post my user name in your response.

Very simple. Let me talk to myself and let me post my views. If you disagree then either you let me be or engage with me.

What you are doing now is like trying to influence others. Why do you have to announce to the world that you ignore my comments? Is there some sort of mass euphoria in doing so? 😛

I know it’s tempting to call jambalaya out on his routine fallacious arguments and biased nonsense but it’s utterly pointless. Rational arguments don’t work against someone with such monumental faith in how right they are about everything.

The way I see it Jambalaya makes sense. On the other hand when the opposing views cannot overcome his comments they start to become highly emotional.

If you look at your comments now you will see that you are highly emotional.

Right? Who is right?

Why do you think someone should always be right?

Do you think you are right? 😯

Obviously complete and utter BS. The IRA were infinitely more effective than the PLO, Hamas et al, yet the British somehow managed to avoid bombing Irish children with white phosphorus.

Watch out chewkw!! With jhj and jambas down, you will be the only target left. Tin hat time. 😉

Indeed, the ignore claims don’t stand up to much scrutiny do they?!?

DrJ – Member
Obviously complete and utter BS. The IRA were infinitely more effective than the PLO, Hamas et al, yet the British somehow managed to avoid bombing Irish children with white phosphorus.

Crikey, now IRA is being dragged in …

teamhurtmore – Member

Watch out chewkw!! With jhj and jambas down, you will be the only target left. Tin hat time.

Indeed, the ignore claims don’t stand up to much scrutiny do they?!?

Why are they down?

“You Shall Not Pass!” Said Gandalf the grey.

My motto is I fear no ZMs! 😆

deleted post to save space.