Is widespred citizen survellence that way to sort out driving in the UK?

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  • Is widespred citizen survellence that way to sort out driving in the UK?
  • I think its a good idea, the number of people who get so offended by me filtering past on a motorbike that they try and knock me off is shocking.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I suspect a lot of people would be quite happy to film and report others, but would be up in arms at the suggestion that they might be filmed 🙂

    Personally I’d be all for it and I find the “it’s up to the police to enforce the law, not you” attitude a bit sad. It suggests that people have no morals and the only thing preventing them from robbing or murdering is the possibility of being caught by the police.

    Premier Icon imnotverygood
    Subscriber

    It’s a sad reflection on the way we are, but I tend to agree that if you look at the numbers of KSI it is probably not a bad idea.

    Premier Icon hot_fiat
    Subscriber

    Hmm, doesn’t seem to stop the Russians from driving like complete and utter nutters. The gauge on my “oh shit we’re dead-omiter” has never gone so high as when I’ve been ferried around Moscow and everyone has dash cams there.

    Premier Icon Del
    Subscriber

    great idea. come to mention it, my neighbour has been looking a bit shifty lately, reckon he might be some sort of subversive. I’ve known him for 10 years but i think i’m going to call the security services.
    🙄

    if the road is that dangerous contact your police commissioner and request increased traffic patrols. it’s ( supposedly ) what they’re there for, to listen to the concerns of the public, and encourage the police to respond.

    lodious
    Member

    In fairness, In Russia don’t think they have the police angle on it, I think they have them for insurance claims?

    I’ve only spent 6 weeks in Russia, amd my “oh shit we’re dead-omiter” was pretty high the whole time…not just driving 😉

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    By the way, this already happens to a degree. The Met have Roadsafe London which accepts video footage from dash/helmet cams, though only as corroboration to a witness statement.

    Video footage

    Occasionally, people refer us to video footage in the public domain e.g. YouTube or similar sites. In the course of dealing with your information we may direct others to any material that has been openly posted, to raise road user awareness and to promote safety.

    Some points to bear in mind regarding video submissions: Videos should be submitted within 48 hours of the event. Footage should be of high quality and include at least two minutes before and two minutes after any incident. For prosecution purposes, video evidence can only act as corroboration. This means that you will need to attend a police station and give a written statement and must be prepared to attend court to give evidence in person.

    Videos should not be edited in any way. They must not rely on a perception of distance such as a close pass as the apparent distance will vary according to the type camera and settings. There are other issues with video evidence, such as parallax error, which makes objects appear close together when they are seen in line. In general, evidence of provocation or disproportionate reaction will mean that no action is taken.

    brooess
    Member

    Data shows the number of people dying on UK roads falling massively since 70s and 80’s which would indicate we don’t really have a problem.

    But I’d like to see a study which shows what the causality is – is it people driving better or is it cars being so strong and with so many features to protect the occupants?

    Anecdotal experience as a driver, pedestrian and cyclist suggests there’s a generalised level of aggression, dozyness and lawlessness which is getting worse. Surveys of people who’d like to cycle but are too scared to do so provides some evidence for this.

    From a cyclist’s point of view in particular I’d like to see a massive clampdown on lousy driving – it’s spoiling my riding and stopping cycling from becoming a mass-transit option.

    But I don’t think we can put in mass surveillance without some data showing a massive increase in law-breaking and injury to justify it first

    willard
    Member

    The Russians also use dash-cams to prevent, or at least limit, police corruption. If you have video evidence, then there is substantially less chance of someone in blue trying to get you for something that you have not done.

    Despite the recent revelations, our police force is nowhere near being that bad.

    Premier Icon woody2000
    Subscriber

    Simple “black box” journey recorder in every vehicle, bet it wouldn’t be too[/u] expensive to implement – all the tech required is already in modern mobile phones (accelerometers/gps etc) and it’s the kind of thing insurance companies are offering to drivers to reduce premiums. In the event of an accident, the data could be analysed and the at fault driver(s) determined & punished accordingly.

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    Ridiculous number of cameras watching what we do already.

    What we actually need is proper human policing, pulling people over for breaking the rules, and some friendly advice for first offenders.

    Then some proper penalties for subsequent offences. 3 points, speed or driving awareness course. 6 points and a one week driving ban, no excuses. 9 points and a one month ban, with employers made to keep your job open and treat it as unpaid leave if you really cannot get there any other way. 12 points and a 12 month ban and a retest.

    I don’t care if you lose your job and your family suffers. You have shown that you cannot and or will not drive safely, and you are too stupid and/or arrogant to learn from your mistakes.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Data shows the number of people dying on UK roads falling massively since 70s and 80’s which would indicate we don’t really have a problem.

    Vehicle crash safety has improved a lot since the 70s with seatbelts, airbags, ABS, skid control, side impacts bars, roll bars, compulsory child seats etc etc

    Roads have been made safer (and faster) with widespread installation of Armco barriers and flood lighting.

    And of course less and less people are risking going near a road on foot or bicycle. Children don’t play in the streets like they used to.

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-VuB131sFo[/video]

    I think all the safety features in cars mean people have actually got much worse at driving, because there are less consequences for them if they get it wrong (the old “steering wheel spike” theory).

    grantway
    Member

    Never the best way. Police presence is always the best.

    With the increase of speeding fines and with the normal assholes
    whom can’t afford the fines, then selling there cars to pay the fines.
    Will keep the Dick Heads of the roads.

    Premier Icon seadog101
    Subscriber

    Why can’t we just have some system of reporting poor drivers actions? Then, if someone is involved in an accident or offence, and the police see that their vehicle has been reported for shoddy driving many times in the in the past year, they might have to ask a few more probing questions about the offenders driving habits…?

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Subscriber

    The reason driving is so bad is we focus on the wrong things.

    Speed is easy to measure and can be caught my a machine.

    Tailgating, lane discipline and generally driving like an incompetent dick can’t be captured by a camera so aren’t enforced at all.

    Thats why its becoming the norm.

    Put more actual human police on the roads and punish bad driving not just speeding

    surfer
    Member

    I drive a lot and (as my friends and family tell me) I drive like an “old woman” I dont see it as failing as I am generally a very safe and courteous driver.
    I am experienced and confident so am not fased by much and confident driving most things anywhere.
    I am teaching my daughter to drive and as she is naturally driving more slowly and making a number of errors such as not moving off quickly at junctions/lights etc and the number of people who drive very close or overtake aggressively etc is staggering, even to me. Drop a few mph below the typical and people become very impatient, L plates or not.
    Anything that improves the falling standard of driving gets my vote.

    surfer
    Member

    Put more actual human police on the roads and punish bad driving not just speeding

    Too many cars, too many journeys and increasing number of roads makes this waste of resources. I am happy to film and be filmed.

    surfer
    Member

    I think all the safety features in cars mean people have actually got much worse at driving, because there are less consequences for them if they get it wrong (the old “steering wheel spike” theory).

    +1. I learned to drive in a Mk1 Escort Van. It was hand painted and cost me £60. It had drums all round so forward planning was a must 😀

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Drop a few mph below the typical and people become very impatient, L plates or not.

    Yep there are a couple of bits of my car commute where it actually feels quite dangerous to observe the speed limit, mostly due to people tailgating or approaching from behind at speed then slamming on their brakes.

    When it becomes more dangerous to drive legally than illegally then something is definitely wrong.

    sbob
    Member

    If we started prosecuting people for shit driving, it would definitely help.
    It is a ridiculous situation that the state is more likely to prosecute you for not causing an accident, than for causing one!

    Dickyboy
    Member

    I think dash cams would be a good idea if only to ensure that bad drivers do actually get properly prosecuted when things do eventually go wrong – rather than having one persons word / view on what happened presented in the court & also to greater inform the courts* of the details of any road layout etc.

    * near fatal accident that I witnessed, best piece of evidence presented in court was print off of google map location of accident, the injured party had no recollection of accident, his girlfriend was a nervous wreck but luckily my mate & I were able to present effective evidence to stop the driver from worming out of it – driver got 9pts & £2500 fine, process would have been a whole lot easier on all concerned if drivers/riders had had dashcam footage of what actually had happened.

    klumpy
    Member

    I learned to drive in a Mk1 Escort Van. It was hand painted and cost me £60. It had drums all round so forward planning was a must

    “Can you stop within the distance you can see?”
    “Well, I can see to the horizon, so, just about…”

    edlong
    Member

    Simple “black box” journey recorder in every vehicle…

    …wouldn’t react if you were steadily doing just under the speed limit, four inches from the rear of the car in front, or changing lanes into a gap that doesn’t exist, or passing a cyclist with inches of clearance.

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Is widespred citizen survellence that way to sort out driving in the UK?

    No. This is:

    lodious
    Member

    I should have a pretty easy commute. It’s about 25 miles on dual carriageway A roads. I generally start early / finish late, so I’m not travelling at peak times. The commutes basically come in two flavours:

    Without accidents – traffic moving at average 60mpg with some people trying to drive at 90.

    With Accidents – Traffic at standstill because someone trying to drive at 90 has crashed into another car.

    Yesterday the road was closed, because there had been a crash between two cars. It turned out, one of the cars involved was one of my neighbours. I’ve seen him driving like a tool many times (he often overtakes me, tailgating somebody, driving at 80+), and this time he managed to hit someone in his white 4×4 (other drivers fault, apparently). He got a 4×4 because he didn’t feel safe in his previous saloon after he ‘took out the bus stop’ (not his fault either).

    In the context of my commute, these drivers do not get to work any quicker, as the general flow of traffic won’t allow it. Most of the tailgaters are tailgating the last car in a row of traffic 10 cars long. It’s totally pointless.

    I recon at least twice a week, I see someone driving in a way which could result in a fatal crash (to the extent it makes you feel sick to see it). If a significant number of the UK population carried dashcams which were certified by the police and admissible as evidence, wouldn’t all this stop? If you see some driving badly, upload it to a police website, police have a team to review it, issue fine / points if it’s warranted.

    This would benefit the general public, and the ‘pressing on’ brigade, because they would have to clean up their driving and stop crashing into people. My neighbour probably wouldn’t have crashed yesterday if he knew there was a good chance of getting prosecuted for tailgating.

    Probably be legal chaos for the first year, but very soon, people would stop endangering lives by using their cars as weapons.

    Good idea or not? Society turning itself into a police state? I don’t care…I’m just getting really, really sick of it.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    …wouldn’t react if you were steadily doing just under the speed limit, four inches from the rear of the car in front, or changing lanes into a gap that doesn’t exist, or passing a cyclist with inches of clearance.

    In theory it could use the parking sensors to record how far you are from a car in front or behind whilst moving. (Clearance to the cyclist is a bit more tricky)

    brooess
    Member

    In terms of real-world-ready solutions, self-driving cars are the closest option to becoming reality IMO

    All those drivers using their phones/shaving/doing makeup/reading/Facebooking etc are already demonstrating they’d rather not have to do the driving themselves…

    Dickyboy
    Member

    All those drivers using their phones/shaving/doing makeup/reading/Facebooking etc are already demonstrating they’d rather not have to do the driving themselves…

    +1 hadn’t really thought of that

    sbob
    Member

    The great thing about humans is that they can react to any situation they come across.
    The problem with computers is that they can only react to the things they’ve been programmed to, by a human.

    People forget that driving is actually quite safe, and the chances are that you will never be in a serious accident.

    Premier Icon midlifecrashes
    Subscriber

    Should be pretty straightforward to fit a black box to any car belonging to a household or business address where any driver has six points for speeding. Box has GPS, maps and a database of speed limit on each road. Vehicle is restricted to the speed limit.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    The UK is one of the safest places to drive in the world. We can of course make improvements but it’s important to recognise the relatively good place we are in.

    Dashcams are quite widely used in the US where road deaths are far higher.

    Most accidents are caused by bad driving not speed as the OP suggests. Speed is a factor but is commonly overplayed. Distraction within the vehicle is a material and growing risk, eg playing with he gps, on the phone, even texting these days.

    edlong
    Member

    Should be pretty straightforward to fit a black box to any car belonging to a household or business address where any driver has six points for speeding. Box has GPS, maps and a database of speed limit on each road. Vehicle is restricted to the speed limit.

    Great, that stops people speeding (or busts them when they do). Doesn’t really address all the other ways people drive dangerously while not exceeding speed limits though.

    sbob
    Member

    Vehicle is restricted to the speed limit.

    You are aware that we already have speed restricted vehicles on our roads?
    Now tell me if you have ever seen one of these speed restricted vehicles driven badly?
    Driving in excess of the speed limit is the major causal factor in only 4% of accidents.
    Limiting a vehicle’s speed will only encourage the driver to drive at that speed, no matter if appropriate or not, the evidence for this is on the roads right now.

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Subscriber

    The great thing about humans is that they can react to any situation they come across.
    The problem with computers is that they can only react to the things they’ve been programmed to, by a human.

    Driving isn’t actually that hard, it can’t be look at some of the half wits who manage it. Computers are far better at dealing with mononotous or repetitive tasks than humans, they are never distracted and never break the rules they are programmed to follow.

    crankboy
    Member

    sbob the thing about humans is they are actually really bad at driving and also justify and rationalise their errors rather than accept fault . Self driving cars can be well programmed and are not subject to external pressures or distractions or an ego. As I understand it in thousands of miles Google’s self drive cars have only had one accident and that was when the human occupant took over control.
    I don’t think self driving cars will catch on any time soon. Personally I like my independence to travel anywhere on a whim I am an excellent driver and can chose a safe speed for my journey matching the road and traffic conditions to my abilities and my vehicle without reference to some artificial number on a sign so I will not be using one unless it works out to be more practical than tying £7000 up in a depreciating asset that spends about 21 out of 24 hours a day sat still, empty while I pay for the privilege of leaving it there.

    Premier Icon midlifecrashes
    Subscriber

    Oh and give make the speed limited cars have a “P” plate denoting their probationary status. It could stand for something else of course. Social pressure might soon see a change in attitude. Yes, I’m aware that speed isn’t the only issue, and have driven many speed limited vans and minibuses, but not solving one problem just because you’re not solving all the problems seems like a bad idea too.

    brooess
    Member

    unless it works out to be more practical than tying £7000 up in a depreciating asset that spends about 21 out of 24 hours a day sat still, empty while I pay for the privilege of leaving it there.

    When a decent alternative (self-driving car which you can book to turn up at your house when you need it) becomes a real-life proposition I think you’ll see a lot of people realise how utterly lunatic the private car is as a financial proposition – as per ^^^

    let alone the benefits of being able to sleep, work, eat, chat etc etc whilst you travel

    sbob
    Member

    Computers are far better at dealing with mononotous or repetitive tasks than humans, they are never distracted and never break the rules they are programmed to follow.

    That isn’t the problem!

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Driving in excess of the speed limit is the major causal factor in only 4% of accidents.

    4% of all accidents, but 12% of all fatal accidents.

    Along with related factors like:
    Travelling too fast for conditions: 11% of fatals
    Driver/Rider careless, reckless or in a hurry: 19% of fatals
    Loss of Control: 31% of fatals

    Also don’t forget that this is based on police reports of accidents. The police will not always have evidence that a driver was exceeding the speed limit before a crash.

    sbob
    Member

    crankboy – Member

    sbob the thing about humans is they are actually really bad at driving

    This is where I disagree.
    I think we are getting worse, but only because there is a current trend to stop relying on the things us humans do well.

    surfer
    Member

    Personally I like my independence to travel anywhere on a whim I am an excellent driver and can chose a safe speed for my journey matching the road and traffic conditions to my abilities and my vehicle without reference to some artificial number on a sign

    I may be wrong but I read this as you choose to “speed” when you see fit. If driver-less cars remove peoples ability to do this then I think that is a good thing. People make mistakes and you will too.
    I dont think driver-less cars reduce independence you still get in it when you want to and it takes you where you want to go.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    Speed restricting boxes will infuriate drivers and make them drive more dangerously, eg by refusing to slow down at all costs.

    surfer
    Member

    Speed restricting boxes will infuriate drivers and make them drive more dangerously, eg by refusing to slow down at all costs.

    Thats not a good reason not to do it IMO.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    One argument I’ve heard against speed restricting boxes is that “sometimes you need to speed to avoid an accident”

    So why not design the boxes so that excessive speed creates an annoying beep (and shuts off power to the stereo)?

    It can allow a few minutes of this before it also reduces speed.

    Obviously scrotes will try to bypass the box, so you’d have to add it into the MOT checks and accident investigations.

    b r
    Member

    Most accidents are caused by bad driving not speed as the OP suggests. Speed is a factor but is commonly overplayed. Distraction within the vehicle is a material and growing risk, eg playing with he gps, on the phone, even texting these days.

    This.

    Speeding is an easy thing to focus on – it’s crap driving (by at least one party) that normally (and that element that is crap is usually poor observation) is the cause in 100% of accidents I’d suggest.

    I’ve driven for +30 years (car and motorcycle) and not had an accident since in my teens. Riding a motorcycle teaches you pretty early on that any failure to observe, by anyone on the road, can easily hurt – therefore I drive assuming that everyone else is an idiot who hasn’t seen me. Worked so far.

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