Is the UK university system broken ?

What’s happened to the UK University system . When I left school , albeit 50 years ago , things were different and IMO way better . I went to a Grammar school, which statistically contained the top 10% of the academic age group plus me . Of these probably 25% went on to go to university. So that says that probably no more than 10% of all students went to university . But those students generally did a degree that followed on from the A levels that they did , and had a vision of what job would follow if they got their degrees . They also left university without incurring crippling debt .The rest of us got a good education without needing to go to university. Contrast that to today where almost anybody has the opportunity to go to university so long as they can afford it. Universities are struggling to survive, and are forecasting having to put fees up substantially despite having more students than ever before. Where did it all go wrong?

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But those students generally did a degree that followed on from the A levels that they did , and had a vision of what job would follow if they got their degrees .

Not necessarily. There has always been a much wider choice of course available than there are GCSE / A Level subjects.

And degree level study isnt necessarily job training. I’d say less now than ever because the realities of work are much more dynamic. At the point when I went to college the idea of ‘a job for life’ was dying out. I think now it would be naive to think theres even a career for life. Even back then most of my peers at school went on, after university,  to work in IT. We’d not had any computers in our classrooms at school, they didn’t study computing related courses at university. They wouldn’t have had a vision of a job in IT, because IT as a career didn’t exist.

I didn’t go to university with a vision of a job at the end of it, and for most or the last 35 years I haven’t had a job. In that respect University worked out very well for me – its put me in a position where I can confidently and successfully not have a job.

Universities are struggling to survive, and are forecasting having to put fees up substantially despite having more students than ever before. Where did it all go wrong?

“State support for universities has a longer history than is often supposed, and allowed student fees to be kept low. Even before 1914, outside Oxford and Cambridge, fees usually only made up well below half of university income. Making students pay the full cost of their education is a radical innovation.”

I changed schools age 9 and got put into a non-11 plus class in a primary school. Non of my class got the 11 plus as we weren’t prepared for it so the selection had been made in the first year of that primary school based on infants schools’ reports. So that part of the sytem was a waste of talent.

I then went to a secondary mod. A few of us got the grades to go to a sixth form college, the other 200 odd didn’t. So that part of the system was a waste of talent.

In sixth form I got the grades to do the uni course I wanted and so did some of the others from the secondary mod, 4 from over 200

I can’t see a downside to more people going to uni if they have the entry requirements. I’d just like to see a means tested grant system so even the poorest can aford to live and means tested fees so the poorest don’t pay.

I would argue that part of the shit Britain is in now is because not enough of my and my parents’ generation went to uni. Among those who went to uni almost none of my contemporaries voted for Brexit and none overtly support extreme political parties. On the Facebook page of my cohort from that secondary mod it’s clear that education has a significant influence on what people contribute to society and how they vote.

A lot of degrees have certainly been watered down, so that less then average Students pass. One Woman I know was not in the front of the queue for brains, but she did a mature degree, and passed, which I found remarkable, as I wouldnt trust her to open a milk bottle on her own.
Add in that a degree does not give you any monetary advantage in the work place, at least for the first two years, and I cannot see why Youngsters really want to go to do their Business Studies etc degrees.
I can see the point in the STEM subjects, which are still as difficult to obtain as they have always been according to a friend, but the lesser ones are marginal in their importance in life. If finishing a degree shows you can actually sit and do something for 3 years, then that is an advantage in the workplace. But I really struggle to see why you would get into such debt for so little advantage with many degrees.
Considering that we have a big shortage of working trade workers, that is something that I would encourage my children (if I had any) to do, electrics and plumbing will always be with us, so there will be jobs for life.
As for some Universitys struggling, good.I’ve worked at two in the Midlands, if they were a Company, they’d be bust in short time. One paid their Vice Chancellor (in effect, the managing Director) £600k a year. He had massive benefits too, easily £200k a year. They even rented 2 places in a NCP car park for his 2 cars, as there wasnt any parking at his University residence. His yearly total package would be around £1m. Yet the University was virtually bankrupt, my pal worked there in an office, he said they were running Insolvent, if it was a Ltd. Co. the Directors would be prosecuted and barred from running a Company again.
Considering the Students were only getting up to 10 hours a week tuition, I think its a scandal.

I think you can’t look at the university system without looking at what else is on offer. The thing that has disappeared is proper apprenticeships

The short version is yes. There are too many students doing too many degrees I subjects that are either useless or would be better as apprenticeships. The problem is compounded by many universities having to tak as many students as they can to balance the books. The better universities such as Russell Group ones have become dependent on attracting overseas students and that isn’t as reliable as it was as it’s dependent on them staying in the top 100 universities in the world which is tough

Turning the polytechnics into universities was a mistake IMO. A lot of students going to uni now would probably be better off doing something more vocational.

 it’s clear that education has a significant influence on what people contribute to society and how they vote.

I’d have agreed with this part of your statement but I see things much differently in that the Tories/Brexiteers I know all have a university education.

An electrician who would encourage his kids to be plumbers or electricians – for life. That’s a bit limiting for the kids and seriously limiting for the British economy.

I hadn’t considered the Tory party an extreme party when I typed that, Scotroutes, but some of the people I know who went to uni are indeed Tories, and there’s at least one, possibly two Brexiteers.

If the university system is seen as broken then is that not just part of a larger problem in society with inequality / technology impacting careers and businesses / soggy chips / everybody acting like they’re omniscient because they can access wikipedia on their phone?

Add in that a degree does not give you any monetary advantage in the work place, at least for the first two years, and I cannot see why Youngsters really want to go to do their Business Studies etc degrees.

Because for any half-decent job nowadays employees now demand a degree level education before they’ll even give you an interview. No degree? Your CV is getting filed under B

It’s insane! In a lot of cases it’s absolutely preposterous and you have to ask why the hell you’d need a degree for that, but unfortunately that’s just the way it is.

Blame employers

Yes.
Having been up close and personal to a few young people taking degrees the last few years, it’s got really serious issues.
It’s difficult because like the NHS many front line staff work hard and are great.
But the system feels like a Ponzi scheme and some of the delivery / front line are utter shite.

Not just the people I know it turns out and your aquaintances aren’t representative, Scotroutes:

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/educational-attainment-referendum-voting/

Like much of ****-up-Britain, a lot of today’s ills stem from the early 1980s Thatcherite Britain.

In the 60s and 70s, many who left education at 16 went into proper apprenticeships – whether into engineering, or manufacturing, or building, or clerical apprenticeships,  or hair dressing, or whatever.

A huge swathe of those youth jobs went (for good) in the 80s and 90s as the traditional jobs disappeared.

Then to reduce the otherwise mahoosive youth unemployment to just ‘woefully bad’, lots of mickey mouse degrees were conjoured up in the 90s and 2000s and those who would traditionally take those early years jobs in industry or building or hairdressing etc went to university to study… fhecknowswhat + applied toilet dressing.

Polytechnics and HE centres all clamouring to turn into Universities, and the leadership in each got a bloated misplaced sense of their own importance, taking pay at £200k or £300k pay + whacking bonuses (or more) at what should just be a local HE college.

Se we end up with Unis doing lots of BS degrees that should not be degrees.  Decent degrees becoming devalued.  A financial need to let students  in who are honestly not good enough, and keep passing them for their £9k a year into the coffers.

And so the bloated unis are now finally at a point where they are unsustainable and in many cases don’t deliver what is actually needed in society half the time – quality engineers, chemist’s, biologists, doctors, nurses, etc.  Instead half those graduating have waste-of-time-and-money useless degrees that don’t do anything for society or the former students.  Ask the question here – of those who did degrees, how many actually use the stuff they studied in their day to day working lives. I reckon at least half won’t

(Said as someone who DID do a degree – but a worthwhile one in engineering and I’m still in engineering today – albeit not using the uber-hard maths any more.)

Turning the polytechnics into universities was a mistake IMO. A lot of students going to uni now would probably be better off doing something more vocational.

the only thing that changed was the names. The courses / types of courses that polytechnics offered are still offered. Becuase the polytechnics haven’t vanished…. they’re just called universities now. I went to a polytechnic and 3 years later left a university. And as a university it still offers the same course now.

The better universities such as Russell Group ones have become dependent on attracting overseas students

Foreign students at Russell Group unis should be capped at 15%.

“Because for any half-decent job nowadays employees now demand a degree level education before they’ll even give you an interview”

I think that’s begining to change binners. Wal-Mart (a huge employer) recently announced that a large number of roles that previously required applicants to have a degree are now open to any applicants. Other employers are begining to follow suit.

Employers are begining to realise that wider catchment and grade inflation have degraded the quality and value of degrees considerably.

Another aspect, particularly in non STEM subjects is that employers recruited applicants with a degree level education in the belief that they had developed critical thinking skills, skills that could be applied to different roles that may not be immediately relevant to the subject studied.

There is now a perception that the teaching of critical thinking has been replaced with the teaching of ‘critical consciousness’, (nnot teaching you how to think but rather what to think).

Consequently, a lot of graduates are entering the workforce thinking their role is to change the way the company (and society at large) operates, rather than actually fulfilling the job description and employers are begining to tire of it and would rather recruit A level students and train them up themselves.

Foreign students at Russell Group unis should be capped at 15%.

Problem is the books don’t balance – with cost inflation and falls in research income (both UK and EU). However, the high number of international students, often with poor English, is a really teaching challenge.

Couple of illustrations of some of the problems:

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2023/jul/29/top-universities-will-turn-away-more-uk-students-as-fees-fail-to-match-costs

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/may/28/i-see-little-point-uk-university-students-on-why-attendance-has-plummeted

It’s not a great place to work at times. On top, I strongly believe not everyone should go to Uni, and we should be getting away from that narrative.

Back when i were a lad, you left school and went to uni if your family had the money to do so, so in many ways it’s better from that perspective, as my old man’s a dustman (yes, he did wear the hat) i got an apprenticeship, was very lucky to get it as well, and i learnt a decent trade, earned well and moved onwards and upwards.

I did also do a masters within my job, and have to say i did enjoy a lot of it, there is still a hell of a lot of pointlessness in those degrees, it was a STEM one, so having some of the courses covering maths and chemistry at a high level and having exams based on solving problems using theories and equations was at best antiquated, as someone who had been in the industry 20 years, you just used computers to do that for you, same with the thesis, it was underwhelming to do, the literary review was meh, you’re doing a project that many others have done before, the hardest part is trying to pass the plagiarism test in turnitin, same with the many project in many ways, i just think a lot of even the best courses could do with some modernising and making them more useful, and as others state, more apprenticeships, maybe even break up the whole structure of further education, do we really need 2, 3 or 4 years at uni to attain a certain level of knowledge, could it be done more efficiently and cheaper, without just butchering it to just be cheaper.

There are some innovations starting to come through. For example, degree apprenticeships which gives you the opportunity to gain a paid-for degree while getting industry experience and earning a salary. In some cases, dissertations are being replaced by Capstone projects which are more like a real-world team research task (these are challenging though as students don’t like group work).

I wouldnt trust her to open a milk bottle on her own.

Off the top of my head i think there are 3 maybe 4 doctors in my office.

Hydrology, engineering, coastal process, economics, some very very very bright people.

I can assure that opening bottles of milk is not an indication of academic intelligence.

Back when I were a lad in the early 80s even sixth form was beyond most kids reach. Unless you were near the top of the class it didn’t even come into your thinking. University was purely for the very bright kids.

You did your O level or CSEs and  just left. Some even left before the exams.

Part of what changed is that more people want/expect to do more intellectually challenging jobs and not so many work down the pit.

Conversely a lot of wanna-be barristers end up as baristas instead. I’m thankful to have been a generation or two earlier, when there was a rapid expansion of uni education but a pretty good chance of a decent career afterwards.

We had to make changes to raise the education level of our young people (not necessarily academic level, plenty of other sorts of education) as we were falling well behind other modern economy countries. We’re still behind the best. Renaming polys, and raising the status of the qualifications gained at them, was absolutely key to this. “Straight down pit, or on the unemployed list at 16” is not a history to be proud off, or wish was still around.

Oh, by the way, this made me genuinely laugh out loud, well done…

I went to a Grammar school, which statistically contained the top 10% of the academic age group plus me.

There’s more than one university system in the UK , but yes

Foreign students at Russell Group unis should be capped at 15%.

Pourquoi?

This was quite interesting…

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/02/05/265-john-skrentny-on-how-the-economy-mistreats-stem-workers/

Large companies eg Google complain of a stem shortage, encourage more funding for education, then mistreat the workers with poor conditions and job security

Turning the polytechnics into universities was a mistake IMO. A lot of students going to uni now would probably be better off doing something more vocational.

I work at an ex-poly and most of the courses ARE vocational. Our biggest faculty is nursing and healthcare. Since 2013 you need a degree to become a nurse, and you can’t really blame the uni’s for that.  There has been discussion that police forces will go the same way, although it hasn’t happened yet.

for any half-decent job nowadays employees now demand a degree level education before they’ll even give you an interview. No degree?

This is my experience too – it just feeds in to the climate. Where I work, a degree is a pre-requisite for an alarming amount of jobs, (although when I’m recruiting I tend to disregard that where possible)

I work at an ex-poly and most of the courses ARE vocational. Our biggest faculty is nursing and healthcare. Since 2013 you need a degree to become a nurse, and you can’t really blame the uni’s for that.  There has been discussion that police forces will go the same way, although it hasn’t happened yet.

Same as the primary route for paramedics (though a few on the job routes still exist they are very hard to get into). As a Professor in a Russel Group uni, I know the last thing I need @p20, my paramedic husband, to do, is write a dissertation.

“Renaming polys, and raising the status of the qualifications gained at them, was absolutely key to this.”

I think that’s key to the PROBLEM .  Raising the status ? That’s the wrong way around. What was needed was a raising in the QUALITY of the education – the improved status would follow.   Instead it’s devalued the good degrees by dragging the average lower. As an example- 30 years ago an Hons degree BEng or BSc was the required academic level to become a Chartered Engineer.  Now so this century – it’s now an MEng.or MSc. And it’s absolutely NOT thst the Engineering Council or IMechE or IEE etc have raised the actual bar. They’ve just had to raise the level of the piece of paper in order to maintain the entry stand.

Is it broken? Not in the same way the NHS is broken or the transport system is broken.

A few more years of unworkable and outright hostile policies (HE freedom of speech bill, visa changes…) and endless doing down from politicians would have/could still see it get more terminal.

But with a bold new administration willing to give the sector a fee rise in exchange for (a) maintenance grants and (b) the sector policing itself much better with regards grade inflation and quality, I think it’s redeemable.

And c) spending money more carefully

University lost its meaning when every Tom, Dick and Harry needed a degree to get their foot in the door for just about every job going.

Universities are now run as businesses and not centres of education.

As an example- 30 years ago an Hons degree BEng or BSc was the required academic level to become a Chartered Engineer.  Now so this century – it’s now an MEng.orMSc.

robertajobb, I think you misunderstand what’s happened with MEng etc, the extra study and second qualification before entering practice is the norm across the world… it’s an example of us doing exactly what I described… “make changes to raise the education level of our young people (not necessarily academic level, plenty of other sorts of education) as we were falling well behind other modern economy countries.”

You don’t even have to look hard… first google suggestion was the wiki page detailing a similar situation in a string of comparable countries…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Engineering

these are challenging though as students don’t like group work

This is one area where universities don’t do enough in preparing people for work, even if it is an academic based degree.

My daughter’s at a decent Russell Group Uni, doing a semi vocational degree (Media and Creative) – producing a lot of actual content as part of the coursework, and this term has no exams and instead is on an internship with a theatre producer.

They had a big group project in Y1, and again in term 2 of Y2. They were expected to work as a group but have had no training in how to do that – basics of Project Management for example. Fortunately my daughter has some experience having produced a couple of small productions previously and when I was talking to her about them as interested Dad (basically, wasn’t sure what a theatre producer did) turns out it’s project management in a specialist area. So I told her a bit about PM and gave her some notes and she’s absolutely flown the Y2 task compared to the Y1.

It’s not the students didn’t like group work – they had no idea how to organise and work as a group and so when my daughter was able to provide a bit of structure to that they thrived having the structure to work to. It would I’m sure be the same even if a group are writing a dissertation together on a topic, still need someone to PM it overall.

[She was concerned she’d come across as overly bossy, but it suits her; out of work she’s into all the performance groups at the Uni and indeed has just ‘won’ a coveted slot at the arts centre next year to put a show on in one of their main theatres. Not sure if I can say what as I don’t think it’s announced yet]

I think you can’t look at the university system without looking at what else is on offer. The thing that has disappeared is proper apprenticeships

and the reason for that is the job for life has gone, so why would company X invest several years and thousands in your training if you will take that knowledge to work for their competitor Y.  Workforce mobility is actually a good thing, but it does mean you can’t expect employers to be keen to do the job of the education system.

the nostalgic claims that there was no need to change are in a bubble – you need to consider that the globe is getting smaller, we are competing internationally; if you don’t adapt you die.  Of course some countries have quite different systems and some of them might appear to be doing OK.  But these issues are global and cyclical so looking at say a historical German approach is not the best way to plan for the future.

i am a bit intrigued what the Mickey Mouse degrees are?  So far the only actual one mentioned was business, which is ironic given how many people go back to do an MBA to boost their career!   So anyone got any actual courses – with significant numbers of students that we would all agree are just nonsence?

I think universities are broken because culture is broken. When I left school I had the choice of going to Sixth Form or ‘The Tech’. I chose Sixth Form because The Tech was for losers. Smart people went to Sixth Form. I did an A Level on how to read books. Another one on telling the difference between different types of rocks….

I badly did a degree on Leisure Management. I do spend a lot of leisure time riding bikes so maybe that degree was a success? I also learned how to roll great spliffs.

If one judges life on wealth accumulation and skillz, I bet most people that went to The Tech are better off than me 😀

It’s not the students didn’t like group work – they had no idea how to organise and work as a group

On my courses we actually do a lot to support this, as I agree it is often a skill that is lackingl. I have run tutorials myself this year on exactly this. When I say they don’t like group work, we get feedback every single year (and I’ve been doing this nearly 20 years!) that they don’t like it because there is a perception that working as a group will bring down their grade. Trust me, I explain endlessly the power of group work – but a general rule they believe they will get a better mark (that represents their skills) working on their own. This has become worse with the isolation of the pandemic – not students fault, of course, but challenging to overcome.

I love group work.

I am a lazy shit, epic procrastinator and generally don’t give a shit aslong as i get 41%. But… I am bloody fantastic at bringing everything together, proof reading and rewriting the shit out of semi literate nonsense and staying up all night to polish a turd.

It still amazes me the lack of IT and writing skills people achieve by the end of a degree.