Is the UK a Christian Country?

v8 – Your second group there Poly, strikes me that’s the vast majority, and where I would put myself. Would you count them as Christian or non Christian? I would count myself as non Christian, but only because I have thought about it. I suspect that many in that group would tick the c of e box, just because they haven’t thought about it and because of the afformentioned gentle indoctrination we are mostly all exposed to.

yes I’m in the same camp. I’ve probably never been in the “Christian” camp (I remember being asked on a medical form at about 12 what my religion was, and I said “I don’t know” and the nurse saying “Well are you catholic?” NO, “Well you must be protestant then!”). I guess many people are “in” the Christian camp because they have been “raised” that way and have never bothered to make a conscious decision to leave. They are part of the reason this IS a Christian country though – because by default our society raises people on the assumption that they are Christian and if you don’t like that then opt out. Don’t think that is the case? Nativity plays, Gideon Bibles, Christmas and Easter services in Schools, Church involvement in University Graduation ceremonies etc, all reinforce that the default assumption is you are Christian. There is also an assumption which I don’t like but I think anyone claiming this is not a christian country is probably ignoring: if you were from another religion people would probably manage that situation delicately and invite you to “opt out” of some of these things. If you have no religion then its generally assumed that oh well Christianity is so innocuous it will be fine!

i refer the honorable gentleman to the answer i gave some moments ago.

it’s the christian things we do without being christians ourselves that are testimony to it’s intrinsic influence

oops double post

TJ, read the words of the national anthem.

so the detail that 35% of weddings are still religious is a minor detail. and clear evidence that the religion is of no concern.

mrmo – Member

TJ, read the words of the national anthem.

“Those days are past now
And in the past they must remain”
❓

so the detail that 35% of weddings are still religious

In my experience of weddings, that’s more to do with a church looking nicer in photos than a registry office in town.

To which I say- When we get married in christian churches without belief; when we swear on the bible and it means nothing to us; when we sing songs to a christian god just because they’re good songs- we have stopped being a christian society.

So you’re singing the songs, following the traditions, using the symbols, following the moral code. How do you tell the difference?

Is it called CHRISTMAS or saturnalia, or……

Have you ever sung a christmas carol?

have you ever sent a christmas card?

have you ever attended a nativity play?

Yes the country is moving away from christianity, but it has not left it behind. People still get married in churches, because it is what you do, it is actually a part of the fabric of the society, something that is done without thought.

“Those days are past now
And in the past they must remain”

Not quite yet, look at football or rugby, look at the olympic medal ceremony, we may not be religious but the way we behave and think still shows religion hasn’t been abandoned yet.

dd i agree and part of the reason that i got married in church but at the end of the day it still signifies the part played by the church in or everyday lives. for me the fact that we accept it without acknowledging the significance, does nothing to diminish its effect within society and if anything, reinforces it.

Many Christmas carols are prechristian, I have no idea what a chrstmas card has to do with christinanity as they usual have pagan symbols on them.

YOu can call a cat a dog and keep it in a kennel – its still a cat. The Christmas we celebrate remains the pagan midwinter feast with a thin veneer of chistianity pasted over it. Its got far more pagan links that Christian

aracer – Member

So you’re singing the songs, following the traditions, using the symbols, following the moral code. How do you tell the difference?

I think God comes into it somewhere?

Also, again; I’m not following the moral code of christianity. Christianity and I just have a similiar set of morals. And marriage is not a christian tradition; rather christianity has a tradition of marriage.

mrmo – Member

Not quite yet, look at football or rugby

Sorry, I was having a bit of fun there- that was from Flower of Scotland, we don’t sing God Save the Queen at the rugby. But if we did I imagine we’d take the God and Queen stuff as seriously as we’d take the crushing of rebellious scots 😉

Northwind – Member
mrmo – Member
When we no longer marry in churches, when we no longer swear on the bible, when we no longer sing songs to a christian god then we will not be a christian society, until that day we are.

To which I say- When we get married in christian churches without belief; when we swear on the bible and it means nothing to us; when we sing songs to a christian god just because they’re good songs- we have stopped being a christian society.

mrmo – Member
when the core is no longer about Christ then you can argue about it not being Christian.

I think TJ would agree with me when I say I believe it already has.
Northwind – I think those are great points, but I come to a different conclusion. We are a Christian society, but its about time some of those anachronism were removed so we could stop being a Christian society and out customs and practices could more on from outdated and irrelevant nonsense. And although it will never happen – the Churches are probably the people to lead that revolution!

A small minority of the population are Christians,
The major “Christian festivals” actually have almost nothing to do with Christianity

TJ – You are of course right in your assertion that most of the symbols of Christmas are not traditionally Christian, but most of the population aren’t as well educated as you. If they believe it is a Chirstian festival and still celebrate it – does that mean it is not a christian festival?

You suggested Father Christmas isn’t traditionally Christian, I’m not clear if there is a generally agreed origin, but I’ve always understood there to be an association with Saint Nicolaus, who gives his “Status” as a “Saint” I presumed to be a Christian figure.

I’m intrigued, I guess there is probably a tree in TandemTowers at present; which is obviously not a traditional Christian emblem – but what is at the top of it? When public buildings, schools, etc put a tree up do you write and complain if they put a star or angel at the top? As you are clearly in the “non-religious camp” do you bin any religious christmas cards you get (ones with angels on the front etc?).

ok TJ please give me a pre christian Christmas carol?

As for Pagan midwinter festival, which pagan are we talking about? Wiccanism, Buddahism, Shinto, Zoroastranism, etc.

Do you call it CHRIST-mas or how about midwinter festival?

“Those days are past now
And in the past they must remain”

😕

No :

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the Queen

I think God comes into it somewhere?

Also, again; I’m not following the moral code of christianity. Christianity and I just have a similiar set of morals. And marriage is not a christian tradition; rather christianity has a tradition of marriage.

Yes, but to all intents and purposes that still makes us a Christian country, even if people no longer believe.

I pointed it out earlier, but it’s worth repeating – the level of atheism on the STW forum is in no way representative of that in the country as a whole.

mrmo – Member

ok TJ please give me a pre christian Christmas carol?

The holly and the ivy

Yes, but to all intents and purposes that still makes us a Christian country, even if people no longer believe.

eh? fantastic logic.

As you are clearly in the “non-religious camp” do you bin any religious christmas cards you get

Has anybody got an address for TJ so I can send him the most religious card I can find?

I pointed it out earlier, but it’s worth repeating – the level of atheism on the STW forum is in no way representative of that in the country as a whole.

Even by the most generous estimates a minority of the countries population believe in the christian god and a tiny minority are practicing christians

The holly and the ivy

Google says no.

aracer – Member

Yes, but to all intents and purposes that still makes us a Christian country, even if people no longer believe.

What do you call religion without faith? Nothing.

eh? fantastic logic.

Right TJ (and Northwind) so you’re living in a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people believe in God. You move to a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people don’t believe in God. What fundamental differences do you notice?

You suggested Father Christmas isn’t traditionally Christian, I’m not clear if there is a generally agreed origin, but I’ve always understood there to be an association with Saint Nicolaus, who gives his “Status” as a “Saint” I presumed to be a Christian figure.

He is the “green man” – a pagan symbol

I’m intrigued, I guess there is probably a tree in TandemTowers at present

Nope – no decorations at all

TJ, and what are the words to the current version? i am assuming you don’t sing it in old english after all.

What do you call religion without faith?

We weren’t discussing whether the country is religious – that’s the fundamental point you and TJ are missing.

Aracer – I do not accept your basic premise

Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people believe in God.

Thre “christian traditions” are far more to do with pagan rituals, the moral code preexists Christianity and it little to do with christianity anyway, its only a minority who believe in god

ernie_lynch – Member

“The holly and the ivy”

Google says no.

Holly and Ivy are clear pagan symbols, the song is clearly a celebration of the pagan symbols. Your google fu is faulty. the first result I got was

The version we of the Holly and the Ivy that we are familiar with today was first published by Cecil Sharp. The Holly and the Ivy is thought to have Pagan origins and could therefore date back over 1000 years. It is most unusual for a carol like the Holly and the Ivy to have survived over the years especially during the stern protestant period of the 17th century. The Holly and the Ivy have always been taken indoors during the winter the hope being that the occupants would survive difficult conditions just like the hardy Holly and the Ivy. The colours of the Holly and Ivy, green and red are traditionally associated with Christmas. The author and composer of the Holly and the Ivy are unknown.

I do not accept your basic premise

The question is too awkward?

Thre “christian traditions” are far more to do with pagan rituals, the moral code preexists Christianity and it little to do with christianity anyway

So what characteristics would you expect to see in a Christian country (and how would that differ from what you encounter in this country)?

You can’t actually believe there’s a correlation between celebrating christmas and being christian though.

I think you probably can.

It might not be 100%, but I suspect that you actually would find a fairly good correlation between celebrating Christmas and being a Christian.

He is the “green man” – a pagan symbol

🙂 It’s amazing what people will force themselves to believe so that it fits neatly into their predetermined ideas.

Paganism…….the perfect niche religion without popular support to satisfy the needs of every self-respecting STWer.

He is the “green man” – a pagan symbol

means nothing, as has been stated clearly all religions adopt the old, look on most medieval churches and you will find the green man. Consider the celtic saints, the idea of adopting what existed is clear, Consider that Gloucester Cathedral is built on the site of the roman temple. Or how temple mount has been reused, or even more clearly consider saint sophia in istanbul.

The old is never thrown away merely twisted to fit the new.

So you’re singing the songs, following the traditions, using the symbols, following the moral code. How do you tell the difference?

I expect he had his fingers crossed.

Your question is nonsensical as the premise you base it on is wrong.

The holly and the ivy

Isn’t that the one about the blood of Christ?

Holly and Ivy are clear pagan symbols

The Holly and the Ivy is not a “pre christian Christmas carol” which you claimed it was.

You are in fact TJ, “wrong”.

TJ the words to the current version of the Holly and the Ivy,

The holly and the ivy,
When they are both full grown
Of all the trees that are in the wood
The holly bears the crown
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly bears a blossom
As white as lily flower
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
To be our sweet Saviour
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly bears a berry
As red as any blood
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
To do poor sinners good
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly bears a prickle
As sharp as any thorn;
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
On Christmas Day in the morn.
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly bears a bark
As bitter as any gall;
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
For to redeem us all.
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly and the ivy
Now both are full well grown,
Of all the trees that are in the wood,
The holly bears the crown.
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

and in the second verse see it talks about jesus… so it is christian carol NOW.

poly – Member

You suggested Father Christmas isn’t traditionally Christian, I’m not clear if there is a generally agreed origin, but I’ve always understood there to be an association with Saint Nicolaus, who gives his “Status” as a “Saint” I presumed to be a Christian figure.

The idea of a mythical, white-bearded older gent who dressed in red, flew about in a magical chariot pulled by animals (goats called Cracker and Gnasher) and who came down the chimney with presents all harks back to the Norse god Thor – who was also the god of Yule.

Ernie – not at all – Father Christmas is a mix of different traditionl bits of symbology taken from allover. A part of it is the Green Man. All that flying reindeer stuff is norse.

Where in the bible is Father Christmas?

As for the holly and the ivy – obvious and clear reference to the pagan midwinter festival..

The holly and the ivy,
When they are both full grown
Of all the trees that are in the wood
The holly bears the crown
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

Celebrating the survual of the greenery thru the winterand the return of the sun.

aracer – Member

Right TJ (and Northwind) so you’re living in a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people believe in God. You move to a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people don’t believe in God. What fundamental differences do you notice?

We live in that second country… I don’t have any experience of what the former would be like so it’s hard to say. One thing jumps to mind with current affairs- in Scotland we’re legislating for same-sex marriage just now, that would obviously be forbidden in a christian state.

I also think it’s possible I’m wearing some clothes woven of different kinds of thread.

(incidentally- still you keep up with “christian moral” rather than “morals which christianity has”- “thou shalt not murder” being an almost universal moral, for instance, not a christian moral)