What if there was a god who got by on making sure that folks thought / knew he did not exist.

angels danceing on pinheds territory

In the absence of any evidence for the existence of something the rational person concludes it does not exist

Some say that Jesus was a teacher…

Yeah yeah yeah ……and I suppose he read the Guardian 🙄

He was a builder/chippy ffs.

Ernie – people co operated all the way back thru history and into prehistory. Groups of people who cooperated survived better thus reproduced more. the ways of living that were found to be successful became our moral codes.

Son of a carpenter surely?

n the absence of any evidence for the existence of something the rational person concludes it does not exist

So a rational person would not have believed in bacteria,cells atoms,viruses,morals even and God know what else(see what I did there?)
So where does that leave the rational person and what about faith in things that there is no evidence for.
I will try harder to stop arguing myself ,honest

No seriously TJ, name me these religion-free societies which you are talking about, I’m interested. Maybe a link if you’ve got one ?

and I suppose he read the Guardian

Only the news, not the editorials.

So a rational person would not have believed in bacteria,cells atoms,viruses,morals even and God know what else(see what I did there?)

…the Higgs bosun (aka god particle)

Though TJ goes further than that – for him it’s not a belief. In the absence of evidence, he knows these things don’t exist.

Son of a carpenter surely?

A father always taught his son his own trade. JC made his own cross don’t you know ?

Mutual cooperation existed on a family and tribal/clan/village level but it was commonplace to go over to the next village and ransack it,steal the women and kill the men.

FWIW I think TJ’s walked into one of the tangles of the subject.

It’s entirely possible that there are other layers of existance that we can’t see or feel. Gods, space aliens, fairies, invisible pies, divergent parallel dimensions… But if they’re unknowable, untouchable and ineffable why would I waste my time trying to know, touch or eff them? The rules are such that their existance or nonexistance is unprovable, but also unimportant.

The fact that something is unknowable doesn’t mean you have to give it credence. It makes it sensible to just not worry about it.

Only the news, not the editorials.

The editorials in the Morning Star were a favourite. He always said first thing in the morning, “anyone seen the morning star?”

nick1962 – Member

Mutual cooperation existed on a family and tribal/clan/village level but it was commonplace to go over to the next village and ransack it,steal the women and kill the men.

Yup. But that stuff happened outwith christianity too, so I don’t think we should blame it.

nick1962 – Member

Mutual cooperation existed on a family and tribal/clan/village level but it was commonplace to go over to the next village and ransack it,steal the women and kill the men.

Yup – pretty much the same as now.

The fact that something is unknowable doesn’t mean you have to give it credence. It makes it sensible to just not worry about it.

You mean TJ?

It turns out that _faith_ is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And another thing: Christianity isn’t just about being charitable to strangers. There’s a bit more to it than that….

it was commonplace to go over to the next village and ransack it,steal the women and kill the men.

Yup – pretty much the same as now.

FFS come back down south TJ.

aracer – Member

So a rational person would not have believed in bacteria,cells atoms,viruses,morals even and God know what else(see what I did there?)

Nope = point missed – its not about belief. Its about knowledge. You cannot believe in the absence of something. Before the existence of bacteria was known about there was no concept of bacteria thus no one could have not believed in them.

I have no belief in God. there is no concept of god in my conciousness therefore to be asked ” do you believe there is no god” is meaningless

You cannot believe in the absence of something

I believe I have a complete absence of faith that this thread is going anywhere useful anytime soon.

You cannot believe in the absence of something.

I believe in the absence of air in my tyre when I get a flat 🙂

Thats for sure oldandpastit

We are definitely arguing about angels on pinheads now.

No debate about religion ever goes anywhere cos at the end of the day it comes down to faith. if you have faith in your religion that no rational debate can sway it and if you do not have the faith then it is unknowiable

You cannot believe in the absence of something.

Do you believe in this :

No one’s seen it…..it’s just a theory.

Some guys in Geneva might be interested in your opinion TJ….let them know.

Nick- you know that. No belief involved

You cannot believe in the absence of something.

I believe that an absence of sleep will make me a tiredy boy tomorrow so off to bed now.

I beleive the theory exists. I have no knowledge of it to judge it by and I neither believe or disbelieve in the Higgs boson.

ernie

That’s what Jesus saw when he necked those magic mushrooms in the desert…oh but he called it the Devil

I beleive the theory exists.

Excellent ! Next you’ll be telling me that you believe the theory of God exists!

I’ve a feeling this thread has run its course… But thanks for a good chat folks- especially CharlieMungus. Did not expect anything much out of this.

Nope = point missed – its not about belief. Its about knowledge. You cannot believe in the absence of something. Before the existence of bacteria was known about there was no concept of bacteria thus no one could have not believed in them.

Yet apparently you know there is no god. On what do you base that knowledge?

Feel free to ignore the question or claim it’s meaningless. Such a claim won’t make you look clever…

He was a builder/chippy ffs.

I reckon in between his seditionary antics and his religious cult he would have been able to knock out a good few tables and chairs. Wonder if any of them survived…

There are rumours of a cup…

…the Higgs bosun (aka god particle)

As an aside,

This is a false analogy. Scientists don’t “believe” that there is a Higgs Boson particle. It’s a theory. They’re currently running tests to see if they can find it. There’s no faith or belief involved.

In the absence of any evidence for the existence of something the rational person concludes it does not exist

Sure thats an entirely reasonable conclusion. But that is not the same as knowledge.

Vatican states certainly is not very christian

Hah! Classic!

Scientists don’t “believe” that there is a Higgs Boson particle.

Ah, so little faith. You’ll never find the Holy Grail if you lack faith you know. Helps to have faith when you go and splash out £2.5bn on a god-seeking tool too.

Srsly tj, i think scientific method gives that you can’t know that there is no god. So you are lft with a cople of options, either like northwind you have no belief about the existence of god, or you believe he doesn’t exist. Which is it?

Why is this so hard for you to answer? We always end up in these cul-de-sacs of argument as you refuse to shift from an off the cuff statement and continually evade direct questions

I am not evading direct questions. However we are in a philosophical / semantic corner.

I have no belief about god. In the absence of any evidence the only logical position to take is that there is no god. There is no belief in the matter.

Aracer – I base that knowledge on the absence of any evidence however as above its a logical / semantic / philosophical corner and it can be argued that that its not knowledge but a rational conclusion. My point is that it is not a belief.

konabunny – Member

Vatican states certainly is not very christian

Hah! Classic!

Well it doesn’t act in a very Christian way does it? From denial and cover up of child abuse to accumulation of great wealth to theresponsibility for many deaths

I do not need a tray.

I can kill you without a tray, with the power of the Force – which is strong within me – even though I could kill you with a tray if I so wished. For I would hack at your neck with the thin bit until the blood flowed across the canteen floor.

No the food is hot, you’ll need a tray to put the food on.

I have no belief about god. In the absence of any evidence the only logical position to take is that there is no god. There is no belief in the matter.

Good sensible answer.

The problem is that rather annoyingly, faith works the other way around, which of course means that this thread will keep going round in circles forever.

If _I_ was god, I would make sure there was plenty of good hard scientific evidence around so that people like TJ would not be in any doubt as to my existence.