Evening Morning all! 😀

Another point of his and one I would imagine shared by a lot of the police.”I have never seen many working class people with such nice sports jackets.”

So, your mate what is a police inspector has made some massive assumptions as to the character of all those protestors, based on the fashion choices of a few? And you suggest that a lot of coppers would also make instant judgements of individuals based on very little actual information?

Is your mate really in the right job?

I reckon the police had orders from Up On High to make significant arrests if there was any trouble at all, and saw the F+M lot as an opportunity to bag a load of ‘villains’ in one go. Trouble is, that most of those charges will simply warrant a caution in many cases, I’d imagine, and even if folk are prosecuted, it’s hardly a major crime, like, say, for instance, murdering innocent people in Tube stations…

Far from being the wonderful, perfect institution some may see the police as, they are all part of a fairly flawed, far less than perfect, mis-managed and at times corrupt organisation in need of more effective resources, better training and education for their members, and far more public accountability.

A necessary evil, no more no less.

They will knock seven bells of poo out of them as they always do. Brixton/Toxtieth/Miners strike/Poll tax riots.

You just enjoy revelling in people whose views you don’t agree with getting a hiding from uniformed thugs. Probbly satisfies some deep insecurity within you, a way of offsetting your own impotence.

In Brixton, the police took a battering. As they did in Toxteth. At the miners strike, they had to draft in a bunch of hired thugs with no numbers (Army?). And the Poll Tax Riots was a real police success, wasn’t it?

In fact, it seems whenever the police do come up against a really tough mob, they don’t respond the same way as against a ‘bunch of upper-middle class types’: Manchester town centre a couple of years ago; hundreds of football hooligans rampaging through the streets, causing untold damage (an event which any fool could’ve seen coming, let’s be honest). Police din’t seem so tough then, did they?

Couple of points,

It would appear the first rule is to get the demonstrators out of the shop without causing any damage,in that case a pretty successful police action

Am I missing something here? They could’ve done that quite easily by getting out of the way and going “off you go then, lads.” Granted, we see a one-sided view in the video footage, but they don’t strike me as hellraisers.

A few people have mentioned the F&M protesters being ‘kettled’ (both here and on the video) – either this simply isn’t true or the definition of kettling is somewhat broader than I’d previously believed.

Apparently they’re being charged with trespass. How does one trespass in a publicly accessible shop?

I reckon the police had orders from Up On High to make significant arrests if there was any trouble at all, and saw the F+M lot as an opportunity to bag a load of ‘villains’ in one go.

That is, of course, pure speculation.

However, I wouldn’t be surprised if you were right.

Apparently they’re being charged with trespass. How does one trespass in a publicly accessible shop?

Once you have been asked to leave a publicly accessable but privately owned premises (and they probably were asked by the manager, one would have thought) then you are then trespassing if you refuse to go. The implied permission to enter the premises has been revoked (and by implied permission I mean that it is widely accepted that people are expected and allowed to enter shops etc, as opposed to express permission such as you opening your front door to a visitor).

So now you have a trespass, and the circumstances would likely raise this from the civil matter of ‘normal’ trespass to the criminal offence of aggravated trespass, if they were hindering staff or customers and so on. Any charges from the police would be for agg trespass, normal trespass is a civil matter.

Gotcha. Thanks.

You just enjoy revelling in people whose views you don’t agree with getting a hiding from uniformed thugs. Probbly satisfies some deep insecurity within you, a way of offsetting your own impotence.

Aww did I upset you Fred?
HMMM..I think if I was ever banned from here, creating muliple log ins to get back would be a far greater sign of a deep insecurity than finding the FM arrests ironic. Did any of the F&M protesters get a hiding? Not on the video posted by RPRT. Did I state anywhere that I approved of the police course of action? I gave an opinion I had solicited.
As I said before I like the irony of people who set off on a course of breaking the law BUT seem to think there should be no consequence,being amazed when they get lifted by the police.My recollections of the Poll-tax riots is obviously different to yours as well.
RPRT, plenty banners in the mob creating the serious disturbance outside that is mentioned to suggest there were meant to be far more people inside.

Feel free to post any pithy or personal remark you like Fred.At the end of the day,I think that they should not have entered the building if they were not willing to face any consequences.I would give you holding the people as an adequate measure,(keeping them from going somewhere else and doing the same thing)and the police lied to them.I don’t think charges were propotionate,or will ever see court,but why did they enter if they were not willing to face whatever happened?

Aww did I upset you Fred?

Not at all; you’ve upset yourself. 😀

Did any of the F&M protesters get a hiding? Not on the video posted by RPRT.

Did you actually watch the video ? Right to the end? to the part where the police are forcibly prising the protesters apart and pining them to the ground whilst arresting them?

The police have made a rod for their own backs off the back of this protest.

Elfin

“At the miners strike, they had to draft in a bunch of hired thugs with no numbers (Army?).”

If your were old enough to have been there you would know that they imported the MET (to wave rolls of cash) up here to do the dirty work. It underminds your arguments when write conspiracy rubbish. You’ll be telling us next that you believe aliens shot John Lennon.

Please keep the thread going though it’s pretty impressive so far. Oh and Phillip Green for President.

The worst I saw was the guy being dragged off by two coppers,legs dragging.You also had the knocked over photographer snapping away as he falls.Depends what you term as a hiding;for me it would be the police leathering the crap out of somebody on the ground with sticks. You can see 10 times worse outside any nightclub on a Sat.*

* I come from Dundee.

I’m not sure comparing the actions of the police to those of some nightclub patrons in Dundee helps justify the actions of either party.

duckman – Member

As I said before I like the irony of people who set off on a course of breaking the law BUT seem to think there should be no consequence

With the amount of interest you’ve shown on subject duckman, I would have thought that by now you had got a grip of the facts.

UK Uncut does not “set off on a course of breaking the law”. Their protests are both peaceful and lawful.

thegreatape has already pointed out that entering publicly accessible but privately owned premises is lawful, and only ceases to be so when asked to leave by the management.

I see no evidence that they failed to comply with the law or that it was not their intention to do so. There is however considerable evidence that the police prohibited them from leaving the shop.

“On a slightly different note, I think the protestors are all a bit daft actually. If you want to bring down a system everyone knows you do it quietly and from within.”

Certainly worked a treat in Egypt …

I see no evidence that they failed to comply with the law or that it was not their intention to do so. There is however considerable evidence that the police prohibited them from leaving the shop.

And the Police know that how? Seems to me they had a legitimate street protest of some 1/4 of a million people to deal with alongside two hijack protests one of which was extremely violent, the other less so. So you’ve got an extremely stretched resource having to deal with serious riot conditions and you seem to expect them to treat everyone breaking the law on the day with a cup of tea and a nice chat over a biscuit to ascertain whether they are going to torch the place or not. Personally whenever this stuff goes off I thank the Lord we live where we do and have the policing we now have.

Serious riot conditions? Did you watch the video? There was more chance of a sudden outbreak of Jammie Dodgers.

Were the dudes on the balcony of F&M from Uk-uncut or just hangers on ? (the ones who had sprayed grafitti/obscene slogans on the shopfront)

“At the miners strike, they had to draft in a bunch of hired thugs with no numbers (Army?).”

I’m pretty certain I remember a family friend who was one of the armed forces personnel drafted in..

I might be wrong though.. got a mind like a seive

HTH

There was more chance of a sudden outbreak of Jammie Dodgers.

Not in the Deli, my dear old thing! They’d never have such base confections in there! 😉

There was more chance of a sudden outbreak of Jammie Dodgers.

Read the post you are responding to, try to comprehend it, then write your response before hitting send is generally sound advice in my experience.

thegreatape has already pointed out that entering publicly accessible but privately owned premises is lawful, and only ceases to be so when asked to leave by the management.

I see no evidence that they failed to comply with the law or that it was not their intention to do so. There is however considerable evidence that the police prohibited them from leaving the shop.

REALLY? There is plenty footage of them entering and taking over the building,unlikely something the management of the shop would have been in support of,which then constitutes trespass.

Facts Ernie,so subjective are they not? (depending on your argument)

Ernie’s facts;Group out for a stroll,get collective desire for a posh picnic hamper, get kettled within the shop,lied to,wrongfully arrested then beaten by plod.Sheesh,how awful.

Quite entertaining. But watching lots of ill-informed, knee jerk ranting always is. Trouble is, most people are incapable of listening to the other side of a story. Much easier to interpret events according to your own ideology or particular political leaning. Not sure why so many people enjoy getting angry about so many things, based on so little information? Must be exhausting.

Read the post you are responding to, try to comprehend it, then write your response before hitting send is generally sound advice in my experience.

he did he said you were talking crap , he has a point.

he did he said you were talking crap , he has a point.

As above read etc

yunki – Member

“At the miners strike, they had to draft in a bunch of hired thugs with no numbers (Army?).”

I’m pretty certain I remember a family friend who was one of the armed forces personnel drafted in..
I might be wrong though.. got a mind like a seive
HTH

Well it’s all getting a bit vague for me now to be honest but some of the shit I see written about the period by wannabee’s and history rewriters (left and right) does get on my tits. They were tough times for many but the MET who loved all the overtime.

Seems to me they had a legitimate street protest of some 1/4 of a million people to deal with alongside two hijack protests one of which was extremely violent, the other less so. So you’ve got an extremely stretched resource having to deal with serious riot conditions

Someone else who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

First of all the police did not to steward the march or rally on Saturday, that was all done by the TUC and in agreement with the Met. An unprecedented situation for a march in central London in my experience. I have certainly never seen a march with so lightly policed before.

The strategy worked perfectly, then were no incidents or trouble on either the march or the rally.

Nevertheless the police had drafted over 4,500 officers in case they were needed.

There were however incidents which were not associated with the march that required a police presence. The police put the numbers involved in these incidents at about 500, of which over 200 were arrested.

Bearing in mind that the police had at their disposal over 4,500 officers which up until that point had not been needed, to deal with 500 individuals, you can hardly talk about “an extremely stretched resource” ffs.

And since you are obviously clueless, let me explain about the tactics of the Black Bloc. The are the semi-intellectual equivalent of football hooligans. They use these events to satisfy their testosterone-fuelled urges for excitement and adrenaline kicks.

So whilst they may be at these events they are not part of them. On Saturday they exploited both the TUC march and the UK Uncut protests. They organise, to a degree, through Globalise Resistance. They had what they described as “unofficial” feeder marches :

Globalise Resistance “unofficial” feeder marches

So you see they don’t even describe themselves as being part of the “official” march.

You’ll also note in the link that they had fully planned in advance to occupy Trafalgar Square at the end of the day. The Met would have seen their website before the event and would have known of their plans – and would have been prepared for them with their extremely “unstretched” resources.

UK Uncut are as different to the Black Bloc as the Black Bloc is to the TUC. The Black Bloc exploits both the TUC and UK Uncut for its own personal needs.

For as long as I can remember the “anarchists” have turned up at demos to cause trouble (although I never saw them at Wapping where there was real bother) They appear to have become more violent recently because, I suspect, they have been inspired by what they have seen happening in other countries on their tellies.

Despite their claim and their compulsory red and black flags, they are not anarchists. They are just middle-class tossers who are clueless about politics and want to play at being revolutionaries at the week-end. One thing I noticed about them on Saturday is how they are all like Peter Pan…….they never get any older. So despite me having aged since my first demo, they have all remained exactly the same age.

They are in fact, what I describe as “transient revolutionaries”…….when they eventually the finish their degrees many will land themselves nice well paid jobs and will become model Tory voters. A bit like the chairman of the Tory Party Eric Pickles :

Eric Pickles tells of communist past as Eric the Red

As above read etc

Being obnoxious doesn’t add any weight to your argument, you know.

so there is now three of us who cant read then? Perhaps you are poor at expressing yourself except when being patronising?
here let me do the bit ernie omitted

and you seem to expect them to treat everyone breaking the law on the day with a cup of tea and a nice chat over a biscuit to ascertain whether they are going to torch the place or not.

Nor really I expect them to employ some intelligence, honesty and integrity to a situation. They seem to have decided to arrest the nice polite trespassing ones [surely the worst offences committed that day] who were doing nothing in particular riotous and appeared to be going to great lengths to avoid getting involved or caught up in it.

Personally whenever this stuff goes off I thank the Lord we live where we do and have the policing we now have.

I agree we have an excellent police service who are generally honest, trusthworthy and do a great job. They are not infallible and when they use underhand duplicitous tactics against the least “rioty” protest we can legitimately ask WTF they were thinking off. As ernie notes why not target anarchists who are best misguided.
Oppsoing this action by the police on this incident does not mean support for lawlesness in general.

WRT “anarchists”,

I know an actual anarchist or two (if so far as one can be an ‘official’ anarchist without being oxymoronic). I haven’t spoken to them about it, but I’d expect them to be appalled at seeing their logo sprayed all over the place in association with the thuggery that was going on.

Precisely Cougar, that’s why I’m loathed to call them “anarchists”.

that’s why I’m loathed

Do you set these up on purpose to see who bites?

(-:

duckman – Member

My best mate is of the same rank,he thinks the female Inspector wants the protesters out the shop asap,without any damage,therefore took the decision to say “Whatever she had to” to get them out of the shop.

OK, I know it’s been said already but it didn’t seem to sink in- the protestors had already tried to leave, and the video shows the Police asking them to stay in the shop. Doing “whatever she had to” would mean just stepping out of the way. This argument could not possibly be more wrong.

Cougar – Member

Apparently they’re being charged with trespass. How does one trespass in a publicly accessible shop?

It’s pretty textbook aggravated trespass tbh- the protestors wouldn’t dispute that I think.

QUOTE: yunki – Member

“At the miners strike, they had to draft in a bunch of hired thugs with no numbers (Army?).”

I’m pretty certain I remember a family friend who was one of the armed forces personnel drafted in..

I might be wrong though.. got a mind like a seive

UNQUOTE.

You’re totally correct.

About being wrong that is.

No HMF personnel were drafted in, this has been a much a loved lefty conspiracy theory for years.

The closest thing to military involvement was the fact that some police officers kipped in TA drill halls.

I suggest you read up on the Miners Strike mate, particularly the battle of Orgreave.

Adrian Simpson, a fitter at Hatfield Main colliery

I was on strike but I had never been on a picket line. One day in August 1984, I stopped by the colliery to talk to a couple of senior staff. I saw all these riot police coming. There were hundreds of them. As I left to go back to my car, all hell broke lose. I saw a police officer with a fire extinguisher in his hand, bashing a lad in the back. I tried to get closer to note down the officer’s number but they were wearing black boilersuits with no numbers. The next thing I knew, a police officer struck me from behind. I was coming in and out of consciousness as I was dragged across the road into an alleyway. They blocked off the alley and beat another lad and me with sticks until I was unconscious. I was driven to Doncaster police station in a riot van. I’ll never forget, there was a big desk sergeant where they book you in. He said: “What the f-ng hell have they done to you?”

Ninety-five picketers were charged with riot, unlawful assembly and similar offences after the battle. A number of these were put on trial in 1987, but the trials collapsed, all charges were dropped and a number of lawsuits were brought against the police for unlawful arrest. South Yorkshire Police later agreed to pay £425,000 compensation and £100,000 in legal costs to 39 pickets in an out of court settlement.

Black boilersuits, you say?

Well, that sounds like conclusive proof to me.
They must have been from the Royal Tank Regiment then.

🙄

You’re totally correct.

About being wrong that is.

well.. It’s funny that you should say that..

I was pondering this possibility earlier.. and not wanting to publish any incorrect info on the net (heaven forbid).. I called the guy in question..

Turns out that I am wrong.. it was hippies at Stonehenge and the 80s peace convoy that his lot were drafted in to disperse… dressed in mufti as security guards..

my mistake.. 😳

sorry to have caused any confusion.. but can I ask how you feel qualified to be so absolutely resolute in your assertion..?

just for interests sake..

I suspect the few anarchists I have met (not a lot and not recently tbh) couldn’t give a monkey’s about a few students spraying some paint and breaking windows one way or the other. It’s a sideshow and an irrelevance.

the video shows the Police asking them to stay in the shop

Ooh, that could turn out to be interesting.

Today’s take on events from the Grauniad:
UK Uncut arrests threaten future protests, lawyer warns

bravohotel8er where do you get your confidence from? Using the army in support of the civil power was very common in the 70’s and 80’s including sending the SAS in to prison riots. For the Miner’s strike a number of welsh miners came to Yorkshire and found themselves opposite friends and relatives who they had last heard of as being in the army and now found in police uniforms. This i read in the book “state of siege” which was a reasonably well informed exploration of the policing of the strike.

now..
I like Elfin and crankboys alleged conspiracy theory..
and then again I like bravehotel8ers anti-conspiracy theory-conspiracy theory..

but which one is best..?
there’s only one way to find out…

FIIIIIGGGGGHHT!!

There were however incidents which were not associated with the march that required a police presence. The police put the numbers involved in these incidents at about 500, of which over 200 were arrested.

I’m pretty sure thats what I said.

Bearing in mind that the police had at their disposal over 4,500 officers which up until that point had not been needed, to deal with 500 individuals, you can hardly talk about “an extremely stretched resource” ffs.

And since you are also obviously clueless, let me explain about the way policing works…..regardless of who is marshalling the march they have to have resources in place to deal with potentially volatile situations which is what they did. You then have two seperate hi jack protests, one violent and one less so….. which I’m pretty sure is what I said too. At the time they occurred the Police don’t have instant knowledge of scale, scope or outcome, or for that matter who is involved. Therefore they will take steps on the basis of the information to hand, whilst still maintaining sufficient resources to deal with the main march. Seems to me they handled it pretty well given that the obvious intent of the two hijacks was to do just that and provoke headlines.