We live in a democracy right?

So why is it that demonsrators are coralled and contained for hours on end every time they decide to make a stand?

Would I be wrong in thinking that the Police in these situations are just looking to provoke a bit of “action”?

Is it acceptable to put pressure on legitimate demonstarators by pushing them into a corner and not allowing them to leave their chosen venue of protest?

In every demonstration there’s always an element violent out of control people, who don’t really care about the cause, they are thugs who just get off by aggitating a situation. These people are idots and need to be taken out of legitimate protests!

As modern technology is readily at the disposal of the Police and given they have considerable “physical resources” at their disposal, why can’t they use this to go in and intelligently take out the trouble makers before things turn really ugly?

It has worked in football stadia for a the last few decades, so why haven’t the Police learned from these football clubs on how to deal with violent demonstrations?

Would I be playing devil’s avocate if i suggested that your average PC Plod is thick as two short planks, doesn’t give a damn about justice, loves a good punch up and is there, “in for a penny in for a pound” to notch up some overtime? Nobody in command of these people has managed to up the game. Typical public sector workers with a can;’t do attitude!!

In my humble opinion, troublemakers could and should be plucked from the crowd, so legitimate peaceful demonstration can continue.

Scrub that idea, let us continue with giving these legitimised well paid thugs the right to bear down on and intimidate those who naively think they still have the right to make a peaceful protest!

Police intimidation is the main tool politicians use to deter the passive majority into submission, so let the message continue: Make a stand and we’ll give you a good kicking and you won’t have a leg to stand on! Put up and shut up!

If you earn enough money, you will tolerate the crap which is thrown at you. This is why most of us are armchair anarchists!

HAPPY DAYS!

should post this at 10 am monday morning or something. people are sleeping or riding bikes on a weekend. god knows why

I think it’s marvellous how here in Britain at the first sign of trouble the police put the kettle on.

There’s nothing better than sorting out what’s what over a nice cup of tea.

ernie_lynch – Member

I think it’s marvellous how here in Britain at the first sign of trouble the police put the kettle on.

There’s nothing better than sorting out what’s what over a nice cup of tea.

C’mon ernie, i’m pandering to your left wing tendencies. Is this the best you can do?

Don’t you pander my tendencies.

Cheeky fecker.

bacon flavour crisps

i’ll put the kettle on but it’s stictlty cocoa, we’re losing an hours sleep you know.

ermmm, isn’t what has worked in/around football stadiums huge police escorts surrounding the travelling fans and marching them between transport links and the ground, and “containing” trouble?
Certainly what happens in Sheffield anyway.
p.s. was there a kettle on during today? I thought there was a bit of a demo down London way…

i’ll put the kettle on but it’s stictlty cocoa, we’re losing an hours sleep you know.

But they got an extra hour’s pay for nowt!

EDIT Changed my mind.

Would I be playing devil’s avocate if i suggested that your average PC Plod is thick as two short planks, doesn’t give a damn about justice, loves a good punch up and is there, “in for a penny in for a pound” to notch up some overtime?

I don’t think you’d be playing devil’s advocate as much as talking nonsense.

I’m sure among low-level officers there’s a mix of responses: some will like the overtime, some’ll be on the lookout for a bit of macho action, some would much rather be out riding bikes/eating curry/alphabetising their record collection than at work and some will think that if you’re going to be working, there are better things to be doing than this shit.

But in any case, none of the decision to kettle at the moment, the strategy for the event on the day and the entire approach to policing demonstrations and political events is made at a much higher pay grade than any PC Plod who wants extra overtime.

PS – is kettling morally wrong? It depends on its use. If it’s a proportional response to a genuinely apprehended public order problem, for example, then no. If it’s merely intended to disrupt legal activity or is used disproportionately, then yes.

http://www.urban75.org/mayday01/s60.html (legal background, possibly superseded by legislation in the last decade)

You talk some pish.So some people will be plucked from the demo, who decides who gets lifted; You?…Anyway,as a can’t do public servant,I am away out to train a DoE group in my own time.

Is the politicisation of the police morally wrong?

Without it there would be no kettle….

You talk some pish.So some people will be plucked from the demo, who decides who gets lifted; You?…Anyway,as a can’t do public servant,I am away out to train a DoE group in my own time.

I have no idea what the bit in bold means.

I don’t think you’d be playing devil’s advocate as much as talking nonsense.

I’m sure among low-level officers there’s a mix of responses: some will like the overtime, some’ll be on the lookout for a bit of macho action, some would much rather be out riding bikes/eating curry/alphabetising their record collection than at work and some will think that if you’re going to be working, there are better things to be doing than this shit.

But in any case, none of the decision to kettle at the moment, the strategy for the event on the day and the entire approach to policing demonstrations and political events is made at a much higher pay grade than any PC Plod who wants extra overtime.

Far and away the most sensible thing to appear on this thread thus far. Some will also (believe it or not), sympathise with the views of the protesters but simply be getting on with their job.

I think it’s more morally wrong to join what was meant to be a peaceful protest and kick off, thus causing more cost to be incurred and reducing the already tight budgets. Normal short sightedness really.

So some people will be plucked from the demo, who decides who gets lifted; You?…Anyway,as a can’t do public servant

if we are going to remove individual people from a demo who exactly will decide which ones we remove will it be you? As a lazy public servant who does no work [certainly less that the vibrant efficeint private sector] but I am off on a Sunday to do work for free to help young people achieve their D of E award. It is a shame your teachers were not as good as this one 😉

Kettling may be an appropriate response to circumstances. However it is the rossers modus operandi to any protest these days which strikes me as anti democratic and it is likely to provoke a reaction from the trapped majority rather than actually prevent the minority [who are there just to cuase trouble] from causing trouble.

but I am off on a Sunday to do work for free to help young people achieve their D of E award.

this is also done by people employed in the private sector

in fact companies such as TNT actively support thr scheme with practical aspects including the big truck/ trailer

hopefully this won’t discourage your valuable contribution and the DofE scheme can continue for many years to come with everyone supporting it 🙂

The containment seems intended to prevent the uncontrolled spread of the protesters, to protect the streets. But, as the name “kettling” suggests, it causes crowding and mild agitating to reach boiling point. Violence seems inevitable.

So it’s moral in that it protects property, and immoral since is promotes harm to protesters and policemen. Since I value people higher than property, I think it might be immoral.

Conspiracy theory: provoking violence discredits the legitimacy of the protests, and serves the status quo. Don’t blame the policemen – they are merely the instrument, not the hand that wields authority.

My own thoughts are that the kettling of protesters is illegal (no reference and echo the comment above about the possibility of that notion’s suspension by new, probably anti-terror, legislation).

I’d also make a distincion here between ‘The Police’ and ‘The Metropolitan Police’. The Met have something of a history of being rather heavy handed when it comes to public order issues so the fact that they employ this tactic comes as no surprise to me.

Finally, following conversation with a senior police officer of my acquaintance, I discovered that ‘kettling’ flies in the face of normally accepted public order tactics: I am told that when the police, for whatever reason, deploy to break up and disperse a body of people, it is imperative that they are given a route of escape. The reason for this is simple, if you charge anyone, the normal reaction is to flee. If you deny them this, then their only remaining action is to turn and face you and fight.

So…in a nutshell…morally wrong, yes. Lacking in common sense? Yes.

Far and away the most sensible thing to appear on this thread thus far.

Thanks. I am by the way one of those yoghurt-weaving do-gooders whose instinct is usually to disbelieve anything a police officer says. But all the same, if there’s a conspiracy to criminalise dissent, it doesn’t come from the bottom up just so someone can get some overtime!

Fortunately the Libyans are going to enforce a no-fly zone on the UK to allow our people’s protest to continue unhindered…

The Met have something of a history of being rather heavy handed when it comes to public order issues …….

I won’t dispute that. But the important word here is “history”. Yesterday’s demo was by far the most lightly policed demo I have ever seen. Basically the march and rally was not policed at all – all that was done by TUC stewards. There was no trouble on the march and at the rally.

Fair enough ernie. As I wasn’t there I was trying not to comment on yesterdays demo and stick to commenting purely on the tactic of kettling.

…

Shall we hug?

Fortunately the Libyans are going to enforce a no-fly zone on the UK to allow our people’s protest to continue unhindered…

I understand that Muammar Gadaffi has expressed regret for meeting with the leaders of a militaristic regime which has used heavy-handed tactics to repress its people.

Is the politicisation of the police morally wrong?

Without it there would be no kettle….

Good point. Thing is, if the police are using illegal tactics to contain a crowd, then those contained have every right to use reasonable force to prevent such illegal detention. The police have to understand, if they use provocative tactics, then they may be met with violence. At the end of the day, police officers are there to uphold Law and Order; if they are acting contrary to the Law, then the very people they are charged with protecting have the right and duty to resist.

Thing is, the police mostly get it right, at demos and that. The student demos last year, they got it wrong.

And if the police then become agents of a government, as we have seen, then their legitimacy evaporates, and they are fair game for any violent resistance. Ultimately, they are individuals capable of independent thought and judgement. If they chose to follow orders which are unlawful, then they themselves are willingly participating in criminal activity. So if they get bashed, then it’s down to the personal choices they’ve made. Everyone has the right to say no if their orders mean the subsequent action will be unlawful, in fact, it’s their legal duty.

This link was posted on another thread on the forum, but its very enlightening when it comes to “legal” issues.

It’s an illusion.

Couple of posters referring to the illegality of kettling. It is not illegal.

Margin Walker – Member
Couple of posters referring to the illegality of kettling. It is not illegal.

Aggrevated trespass and criminal damage are, however. Oh, teh irony…..

Couple of posters referring to the illegality of kettling. It is not illegal.

It is. Regardless of what the police might say. It’s illegally detaining people against their will, who have committed no crime, and denying them access to food, toilets, medical help etc. Preventing people from exercising their legal right to move freely and without hindrance, and to demonstrate publicly. That the courts have too often bin too impotent to administer Justice doesn’t make Kettling any more legal. We’ll soon see the practice outlawed. Many top coppers think it’s illegal, as do many judges, barristers, Human Rights groups etc. sadly I think it will take the death of someone contained in a kettle, to change the way the tactic is employed.

Unfortunately Elfin, kettling is not illegal.

If the urban dictionary definitions of kettling is anything to go on, then yes.

It is. Do yer research. Any action which prevents people from enjoying their legal rights, without sufficient reason, is illegal. It’s to do with the Human Rights Act of 1998, which follows Article 5 of the European Convention of Human Rights. Just because certain judgements in cases against the police have been wrong, don’t mean that Kettling is actually legal. It just means there have been Miscarriages of Justice.

Aggrevated trespass and criminal damage

Are you suggesting that every single individual kettled is commiting these offences or eeven likely to? I am sure some hunters with dogs break the law should we kettle them at the start to stop their enjoyment of a legal activity or just identify the lawless ones ?

Many top coppers think it’s illegal, as do many judges, barristers, Human Rights groups etc. sadly

do they??

Only challenge to kettling is on a HR basis, not on its legality. Last case determined a restristcion of someone’s liberty is not a deprivation of liberty and as such the case failed. House of Lords decision (must have been a day when all the barristers, judges you refer to were on holiday perhaps)

Bored now – see ya

(ps that answer was based on legal research and not google/urban dictionary definitions etc)

I am sure some hunters with dogs break the law should we kettle them at the start

Already happens. Often plenty of police around as well……Nice nip from the stirrup cup before starting out, lovely! 😉

(ps that answer was based on legal research and not google/urban dictionary definitions etc)

Yeah right course it was. 🙄

‘Detention’ under certain criteria is legal. ‘Kettling’, which involves deliberate provocation of people by aggressive police actions, is illegal.

See ya!

If the tactic is illegal then someone must have sucessfully prosecuted the police by now. Can’t seem to find any documented cases though, can you help Fred ?