"If cyclists are jumping red lights the road design is wrong"

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  • "If cyclists are jumping red lights the road design is wrong"
  • brakes
    Member

    Rubbish. Cyclists go through reds at pedestrian crossings more than any other red lights and they’re the shortest.
    People are just too lazy to stop.

    rocketman
    Member

    Send them to Wolverhampton – traffic signals are purely advisory

    mrmo
    Member

    there is an element of truth, i know a few lights that don’t respond to bikes. What choice is there? wait for a car or jump the light?

    There is also a group who just don’t care, the ones you see racing through pedestrian zones on the pavement etc.

    Premier Icon stilltortoise
    Subscriber

    There is probably something in this. For those of you who live near Longnor, you will know there is a set of lights on the hill climbing out of Glutton Bridge. I realise I’m no Chris Froome on the climbs but the green phase is nowhere near long enough for a “normal” cyclist to get through. Since the risk of meeting an oncoming car is there whether you go on green or jump on red, why wait at the red light?

    That said, most RLJing I see though is pure laziness and pig-ignorance.

    Premier Icon Hooter
    Subscriber

    I agree with the OP. Never felt the need to jump lights living in Manchester, but recently started taking a folding bike to London. There are soooo many traffic lights in central London and they aren’t timed for cyclists whatsoever. So guess what, red light jumping is an epidemic there, you feel weird for not doing it.

    Premier Icon unklehomered
    Subscriber

    stilltortoise +1

    Traffic joining from the right with no interuption to cycle lane was one I got a few times on my commute in Leeds, always a bit irritating, it was a long wait, that was always tempting. But likeise most of what I saw by way of RLJ seemed idle, unthinking, laziness rather than considered acts.

    I didn’t mean that to be the only topic of conversation on this. So should probably have given it a different title. Hmm. Worth reading the whole interview. Promising.

    There’s definitely too many traffic lights in some places. I don’t think its helpful for anyone, bus users, pedestrians, cyclists or motorists.

    My commute in London had 43 sets in 3.5 miles and *everyone* jumps them, cyclists more than others (because its easier for them to do) but if theres nothing in front, motorists, busses and lorries will do it as well, its all the same people after all.

    I think stuff just been added to the roads for a number of years seemingly without any overall strategy.

    bommer
    Member

    Turning left on red lights would be a start

    m1kea
    Member

    bommer – Member

    Turning left on red lights would be a start

    +1 If the Yanks can cope with such things, we should be able to.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    bommer – Member

    Turning left on red lights would be a start

    Yup. And doing something about traffic sensor lights that don’t detect bikes! As soon as you’ve got some situations where the cyclist has little choice but to ride through/round a red light, it gets harder to complain when they do it elsewhere.

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Subscriber

    Junctions seem to rely too much on traffic lights.

    In lots of places a Give Way would be a better option.

    Traffic flow needs to be more cooperative rather then obsessed with “right of way”

    Look at what happens at most junctions when the lights have failed, they tend to work better not worse

    PeterPoddy
    Member

    Rubbish. Cyclists go through reds at pedestrian crossings more than any other red lights and they’re the shortest.
    People are just too lazy to stop.

    Absolute twaddle. I do simply because I can. And because it annoys people.

    theflatboy
    Member

    richmtb – Member

    In lots of places a Give Way would be a better option.

    That’s how I interpret all red lights that hinder my path on my bike. 🙂

    I remember saying to Dutch engineers: “Well cyclists don’t stop at the lights.” And they said: “Well what’s the matter with your design?” They meant what was I doing in the way of designing road infrastructure that is making cyclists feel it’s better to break the rules. Or “is the signal timing too long?” — if you come up to a signal and you are waiting 120 seconds to cross you are more likely to jump it, not like in Holland or Denmark where the most you wait is 40 seconds. So now I ask myself ‘what am I designing that’s making people go wrong?’.

    Interview with new TFL Chief Engineer for Cycling

    DrP
    Member

    That said, most RLJing I see though is pure laziness and pig-ignorance.[b]strava win[/b]

    FTFY

    DrP

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    I’m not going to try and put together some complex moral justification for this, but to me, the roads are designed for cars not bikes, we’re at best an afterthought. And so lots of things like, for example ped crossings stop all traffic because that’s the only way to handle cars in that situation, but bikes can proceed perfectly safely. So I look at the reason for the feature- in this case, to let pedestrians cross safely- and then I act accordingly rather than worrying too much about the car-centric implementation. The whys not the hows.

    I am sure this makes me a bad human being.

    Premier Icon andytherocketeer
    Subscriber

    i know a few lights that don’t respond to bikes

    Every set of lights here* with an induction loop detection works fine with bikes. I’ve never had one fail to detect, but on a Sunday afternoon, with no cars, some do give the impression that they’re not going to change.

    Most RLJers I see are those that arrive just at the wrong point in the phase, and go straight for the ped crossing. Either because they think they won’t trigger and want to press a button, or because they think they’ll get a headstart (which they won’t since the ped crossing phase is usually coincident with the next traffic phase anyway).

    (*here = Germany)

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Subscriber

    On my previous commute there was a short section of segregated cycle lane with a cycle specific light at the end of it.

    The light was to control you joining a one way street.

    It took 3 minutes to change. If they had made it a give way I could quite easily have filtered into gaps in the traffic.

    Which is what I did anyway

    What northwind said +1

    If a junction is trafic lighted to help two streams of car’s filter into a 4 lane roundabout (kings road, IDR junction in Reading), then there’s very little point in stopping at them at 8:30 on a sunday morning just because I’m out of sync with the trafic lights. Even if it’s busy it’s often safe enough to filter into the trafic by bike as your natural isntict is to give way (as not doing so would hurt a lot!), where as car’s would just plough into the space and cause gridlock.

    Maybe the law needs changeing to soemthing similar to turning right on a red in the States? I.e. the red is just a give way signal.

    nikk
    Member

    The UK is obsessed with road furniture, including traffic lights, signs, road markings etc. TBH it is a joke now, there are WAY too many signs and road markings. The painted on cycle lanes in the gutters are my pet hate, but so much of the rest of it is redundant OTT OCD nonsense as well, designed by do-gooders, implemented by jobsworths.

    Switzerland parking principle is that you can ONLY park where indicated. Roads end up really clean – no need for yellow/double yellow lines, only for parking bays.

    wobbliscott
    Member

    Turning left on read wouldn’t work in this country as pedestrians have ultimate right of way and can cross anywhere, so it would result in more pedestrians being knocked down. People just need to observe the rules of the road better and the police need to stop being so obsessed with catching speeders and focusing on bad drivers running red lights, not using their indicators, driving too close to the car in front, using their mobile phones etc.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    wobbliscott – Member

    Turning left on read wouldn’t work in this country as pedestrians have ultimate right of way and can cross anywhere, so it would result in more pedestrians being knocked down.

    That’s a bit of a logical leap… Pedestrians that step into traffic get knocked down, whether it’s by someone turning left at a red or someone just driving through a green, that’s no different… And for the road user turning left, the requirement to observe pedestrians would be the same.

    sambuka
    Member

    I believe red lights should be treated as give way for cyclists. It’s all about having respect for other road users and giving way accordingly.

    simons_nicolai-uk – Member
    Switzerland parking principle is that you can ONLY park where indicated.

    Unless you’re in a Bugatti, or similar, in which case you park where you want and the parking attendants will look at your car, smile, and then keep an eye on it for you! 😉

    steviecapt
    Member

    what about the cycle lanes, that suddenly stop for no logical reason,you have a 300m long road and after about 120m the cycle lane stops, at that very moment the car drivers start to pull in closer to the kerb, thus pushing cyclists into the kerbs, which lunatic thought that one up, it would be safer with out the cycle lane, than have one that suddenly just stops, again council logic.

    mattsccm
    Member

    Frankly there is no excuse not to wait. After all we expect cars to wait for a sensible place to pass us cyclists.
    What’s wrong with hanging about a bit?
    Nothing apart from selfish impatience!

    mudmonster
    Member

    London is pretty frustrating, only have to look at a light and it turns red. I’ve started to take it personally, like there is someone waiting for me to get to the light before flicking the red light switch. It doesn’t seem to matter how fast or slowly I ride. The b’tards.

    bland
    Member

    Totally agree, why can’t you turn left in red, why wait at a pedestrian crossing when the pedestrians have crossed? It’s pedestrian first, then cyclist then car in my view! Sod the laws as they are there for cars, roads designed around cars and bloody bikes were here first.

    If drivers don’t like it its either tuff or they can also get in a bike.

    Cross roads I wouldn’t jump, or anywhere I’m putting myself at greater risk, however most light jumping removes you from the risk

    bland
    Member

    It all boils down to confidence, no confidence and you are going to end up knocked off

    Central London claimed something like40 cyclists in the last two years. And guess what, they were all female, IME the least confident road user!

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    mattsccm – Member

    Frankly there is no excuse not to wait. After all we expect cars to wait for a sensible place to pass us cyclists.

    And the key word there is “sensible”. I don’t expect cars to sit behind me when they can pass safely.

    antigee
    Member

    [policy statement]excepting red lights that don’t detect bikes – I’ll wait then again I also try to drive in a considerate way[/policy statement]

    [p…edoffbit]don’t see why I should have to wait at empty ped’ crossings / wait to left turn, wait at lights that don’t detect bikes just because we have a system that seems to think only way to improve driving is more and more rules and flow[/p…offbit]

    I do recall Sheffield City Council telling the cyclesheffield campaign that a set of lights couldn’t have longer times between sequences to allow more time for cyclists to cross safely as there was a problem with extended waits for drivers already resulting in drivers running the lights and actually this was true – badly designed junctions are badly designed and cost too much to fix as do ped’ lights with movement detectors – the answer has to be more considerate driving and cycling and less expensive technology

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Turning left on read wouldn’t work in this country as pedestrians have ultimate right of way and can cross anywhere, so it would result in more pedestrians being knocked down.

    Here in Oz the lights going green at a cross roads coincides with the green crossing for pedestrians a lot of the time. We seem to manage to cope with it. It’s more about education rather than just changing something tomorrow.

    In the end of the day you have to applaud people who are looking for the cause of problems not just sticking plasters on the symptoms.

    bland
    Member

    Totally agree mike, at present it seems we have pavements for pedestrians and roads for cars. Bikes need to be categorised with the same focus as pedestrians as they are only slightly more dangerous users but not in the same realm as motorists.

    Keva
    Member

    if there’s no traffic coming or nobody crossing the road then I’ll ride through a red light. It’s one of the advantages of being on a bicycle.

    shermer75
    Member

    In the interests of giving a bit if balance I’ve been cycling in London for as long as I’ve been cycling, stopping at red lights the whole time. It’s fine, never caused me a problem. I like to think if it as interval training 😉

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    As above. The majority of RLJing is done not for safety reasons but because the rider can’t be bothered to wait.

    Premier Icon andytherocketeer
    Subscriber

    Here in Oz the lights going green at a cross roads coincides with the green crossing for pedestrians a lot of the time. We seem to manage to cope with it. It’s more about education rather than just changing something tomorrow.

    Same in Germany, same in NL, same in several (most?) other mainland EU countries.

    Pedestrian and Bike lights often go green 2 sec before cars, though. If you’re turning right (so left in UK/Oz, etc.) in a vehicle, you always have to check that it’s clear to proceed. Always. It’ll freak out the Brits if it were introduced there, but they’re the ones that do things differently.

    Turn right/left on red has been mentioned… that will be exactly the same. You can only proceed if the road, the ped and bike crossings are all clear.

    Turn right/left on red has been mentioned… that will be exactly the same. You can only proceed if the road, the ped and bike crossings are all clear.

    Which is actually the same as any side road – pedestrians already have priority in theory.

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