I think my weight’s too far back

Back in the day, moving one’s weight back for descending and central for single-track was the thing, and it worked really well. I considered myself technically good although risk averse. But now, with a modern bike I think I am doing it wrong. I feel like I should be really leaning forward and putting more weight over the bars but this seems rather hard to do. My bike might be too big – it is a little on the large side.

Is weight forward the done thing these days?

Couldn’t you just have continued this in the other thread? Anyway, yes with modern geometry and decent forks you don’t need the back tyre to be scropring your bum hole.

The pedal spindle should be under the middle of the arch of your foot. This means that you can keep your heels down whilst your knees are extended but not locked out. Pelvis should be back, hips should be flexed (bent), elbows should be out laterally, and your breastbone should be over your stem. Head should be up and looking ahead. This keeps the front weighted without putting you in a position to throw you over the bars. Flats and a hardtail give the best feedback about being in the correct position.

Was expecting this thread to be about your Cube Attain GTC disk, you’ve got a more recent version of my ’16 model iirc, on the flat I reckon weight over the rear is closer to ~65% than a racier geo being more like ~55%!

your breastbone should be over your stem

That’s much further forward than I am used to. The increased reach seems to require this.

Back in the day, moving one’s weight back for descending and central for single-track was the thing, and it worked really well.

Mostly because people were riding bikes far too small for them, with hideous geometry, so the only way to create space was to ride off the back of the bike.

Is weight forward the done thing these days?/

The challenge, was then translating that to a modern bike. If you hang off the back of a longer & slacker bike, you will literally have no front end grip.

Assuming you are referring to a Reactor (which is still pretty conservative in terms of geometry, for a modern bike) it will be significantly bigger than 99% of the old 26” abominations we used to ride, so you style needs to adapt, to get the most out of it.

So yes, in short, move forward, hinge at the hips, drop the heels, elbows up & chin over the stem is a decent starting point, which will feel alien for quite a while. Try and force yourself forward when descending- it’s such a classic on really steep techy stuff you see unconfident riders going further & further back off the bike & it’s literally the worst thing you can do.

Even the pro riders who ride in a style of ‘swinging off the back of it’ (Fairclough/Moir, etc) are so aggressively over the front of the bike compared to the average rider, it’s a totally different position.

Yes, with older geometry we were halfway over the bars anyway, so had to work hard to keep back and stop that from happening.

Try and force yourself forward when descending- it’s such a classic on really steep techy stuff

On gentler steep stuff I find it quite a useful exercise to play around with weight distribution and brake control. It’s amazing how much more effectively I can control my speed and even stop on nasty terrain by keeping my heels down and putting weight over the front of the bike. Which then gives me the freedom to unweight the front wheel when I need to too.

I rode my buddy’s Spur last week. My regular FS is an original Jeffsy (2016), and compared to that I was really struck by how much further forward my weight was, to the extent that I had the back wheel come up because I shifted my weight forward as I would have done on the Jeffsy and it was clearly too far forward. The other thing I noticed was how well the Spur steered, it was so easy to change your line mid corner. Lovely bike.

your breastbone should be over your stem

That would be a bonkers riding position for anything, other than maybe climbing the steepest of winchiest climbs. You’d be straight otb at the first bump.

The whole heels down thing is more of a mental shift than a bodyweight one.

@5lab, you’re right, I should have said chin.

your breastbone should be over your stem

I should have said chin.

Both can be true if you have the chin for it.

with older geometry we were halfway over the bars anyway

I think way back in the day, pre 2010 or so, we were over the front wheel.  This is what I noticed when going back to 26 for a ride after having ridden 29 for a while.  My XC 29er from er 2013 or so can be ridden more or less as I was used to but with much better results as the wheel was further away; but the Reactor seems to have a learning curve. The reason I put it in trail mode was that it was easier to do this, but yesterday I felt the need for slacker angles so I put it back into rail mode.

I had been considering an angle adjust headset to help with steep stuff but I think this would make it even harder to get weight over the front wheel.  Should I remove some spacers and lower the bars?  I’ve already got a lower rise bar because it was in the CRC sail, but I could drop some spacers.

I’m not sure what the difference between this and a Mega would have been. The chainstay length is the same on both bikes but the front centre is 20mm longer on the Mega, so presumably you’d need to lean forward even more.

EDIT looking at some vids, these people seem to still be somewhat rearwards, but they are a lot lower than I am with arms still bent, so perhaps being “lower” is the key and that will bring my weight forward if I am going downhill.

Practice some endos to help get used to how far forward you can go over the bars without going fully over the bars. For bonus points practice bailing after going fully over the bars.

This is a good video to watch on body position.

Slacker head tubes, longer forks, and shorter stems means the front wheel is further away from the bars than older bikes, so you need to put more of your weight on the bars to compensate.

Recently though ive been seeing people ride bikes far too long for them. Then pushing the saddle as far forward as possible to compensate. That combined with a modern steep seat tube just looks wrong when peddling. Longer reach is not always better.

I was trying to make the bike more like the Patriot which I really do think was a more capable descender than the Reactor.  But it was such a completely different bike I have had to gradually unlearn everything about that bike (which, to be fair, it took me many years to dial in).  I bought one of the £30 carbon bars in the CRC sale and it was a lower rise than the one it came with and it felt too low because I was thinking of my previous bike and looking for that position.

However I just slammed the stem which in this case means 20mm of spacers swapped, and surprisingly it does not feel too low when riding around, and on the steps across the road it feels a bit better when I focus on getting low.  Interestingly though my natural position, without trying, seems to have my chin area over the stem already.

I think the bigger wheels make me feel higher up and more vulnerable on steep bits so I was moving back to compensate when I should have been moving down.  I wish I had a drone to film myself on both bikes, it would have been really interesting.

The pinkbike learn to ride videos with Ben cathro sums it up well, attack position I think he calls it.

You really need to be pushing that front tyre down to find grip,  weight further forward, but still pushing down with your heels into the back tyre. I found I needed a bit more psi & rebound in the fork to help keep things sweet the forward position, means that setting sag has to be in the attack position too.

When I got my Hello Dave, I found that my front wheel could wash out on corners, I had to adapt by pushing more weight through the bars to counter this.

I also found using a slightly more swept bar helped by allowing me to took my elbows in a little bit, whilst also allowing me to move weight forward and back easier.

As for riding more over the rear of the bike, this is kinda right, but the best way I’d describe the technique that has really helped develope my riding is riding with you body in a more ‘flattened’ position. You end up with a lower centre of gravity meaning better control.

IME modern bikes need a bit more ‘body language’ when compared to the 26″ bikes I rode nigh on 20 years ago.

This article explains it better than I can.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/zeps-how-to-body-position-descending-cornering-braking-2016.html

Edit:- the side on view out the article illustrates what I mean really well

The slo-mo old vs new position side-by-side halfway through this video is enlightening:

It’s about hardtails but it’s relevant to any old vs new geometry bikes.

Recently though ive been seeing people ride bikes far too long for them. Then pushing the saddle as far forward as possible to compensate.

Too long in your opinion. I have my saddle slammed forwards as I like a roomy cockpit stood up, but my STA is a little slack, so to get the weight forwards on a relatively slack front end when climbing I don’t want to have the nose of the same on my coccyx.

so you need to put more of your weight on the bars to compensate.

I’m not a fan of this expression. It gives the impression of having to push down on the bars from above or somehow lean down on them. All that does is make people lower their bars and focus all the weight onto their hands, Which increases demands on your arms and shoulders and makes you fatigue quicker.

It’s better think of weight distribution at the axles IMO.  And you can achieve that to a fair degree by sliding your saddle forwards and having a long front centre in your frame, which can look exactly like:

Recently though ive been seeing people ride bikes far too long for them. Then pushing the saddle as far forward as possible to compensate.

Since buying into nu-skool LLS, my bar heights across three bikes have all gone up, and the longer the front centre, generally the higher they go.

That said, theres clearly a point at which LLS is too long, but this also depends on preference. Personally, I’ve rowed back a touch, because I spend a fair amount of time in the twisties. Seems to me the majority of the manufacturers are about right now.

Both heels down supposedly pushes your weight backwards (Roxy MTB has a video on the how and why). Look at the pink bike picture above. The lead foot (far side of if the bike) is dropped but the rear foot is closer to flat.

I’m also a serial weight to far back front wheel scrubber (also means I don’t use the forks travel well). Currently working on the foot positioning as per the pic above and the hinge position.

Both heels down supposedly pushes your weight backwards

That figures. Heels down is more about making sure ones feet don’t slide off no?

Training, get some.

Geo-wise and how they ride, my 2018 Cotic was in reality both one of the first with ‘modern’ geometry AND the first bike that ever properly fitted me.  An utter revelation compared to all the previous bikes I’d owned especially on the steep & knarly trails here in the Tweed Valley.

Since then I also got a better shaped HT (to replace my 456Ti) and topped up with a Kenevo SL now even the ‘conservative’ manufacturers have caught up.  All 29ers, both for their ride and that I’m tall so do feel at home on them.

Yeap. I think there are some scenarios where both are dropped (ramps down with sharp transition on a CX bike comes to mind though I might be wrong doing that as well). The position above iirc is about creating a wedge with your feet between the pedals (lower legs form a triangle from the knees).

As per that PB article, if I stay centred on the bike I find I don’t have to think about trying to load the front wheel. I also run lots of rise (40 mm stem) and recently fitted 50 mm rise bars as an experiment (I wondered if it might be a step too far); it made descending near vertical, slippy, rooty, rocky slopes even easier. I am guessing it’s because I can more comfortably stay in the centre of the bike, not because I’m deliberately putting any more pressure on the bars. It’s nuts the stuff you can let a modern bike go down, slopes you couldn’t climb up on foot and would have scoffed at the idea of riding down a decade ago.

It’s better think of weight distribution at the axles IMO.

^ this.

It becomes tiring when your C of G is far fwd of the BB because your weight will fall-pivot forwards and you need to keep yourself upright with your arms. When a bike has the correct RC:FC relationship for your height and build and the right bar position you’ll probably have your weight going through the BB (or close to it) in a balanced way.

The feeling of needing to lean fwd can be a sign of a bike that’s too long in the front, or at least is more biased towards steep descents if that feeling is mainly on the flowy flatter singletracks. A ride position that works for you is one where most of your riding feels balanced and you can go +/- to account for the range of slope angles you ride up or down.

The feeling of needing to lean fwd can be a sign of a bike that’s too long in the front

This bike feels on the long side, as I was between sizes and I sized up.  I originally fitted a shorter stem, but of course this was the wrong choice.

It does seem that the steep geo setting is better on normal woodsy trails but the long setting might be more appropriate on the big hills.

a days coaching will sort you out, did a day with Sam at Katy Kurd Coaching https://www.katycurdcoaching.com/product/trail-progression/ in FOD was great for me

I see Hobnob mentioned elbows, I was just gonna say to try sticking them out in an exaggerated way – almost like a press-up position.

I find that a good cue for getting into a more-aggressive position generally.

I’m not doing coaching, I hate it.

 I originally fitted a shorter stem, but of course this was the wrong choice.

So you now have a longer stem, making the front centre even longer?

I’m not doing coaching, I hate it.

Yet it could be a much bigger gain than marginal gains of serial bike & part swapping?

No, the stem has nothing to do with the front centre i.e. the distance between the front wheel axle and the BB.  It shifts my CoM forward though – a bit.  As does lowering the stem, and bending my arms.

Yet it could be a much bigger gain than marginal gains of serial bike & part swapping?

It’s far too generic for what I want. Unless someone is going to follow me down these specific trails with a drone, it’s not going to satisfy me. I’ve been competently for over 30 years, I just need to understand and adapt to my new bike on my own terms. I wouldn’t enjoy coaching, and a coach wouldn’t enjoy coaching me.  As a general rule I like to work things out for myself whilst asking specific questions of people who know the things,  not just go through lessons. I’d talk to an expert, ask a lot of questions, and watch them carefully (as I’m doing here – for free, and it’s been very helpful) but I don’t want lessons.

No, the stem has nothing to do with the front centre i.e. the distance between the front wheel axle and the BB.

Yes, I used the wrong terminology. My bad.

Your overall cockpit is lengthened though, unless you brought your saddle forward to compensate.

As you are, you are more ‘stretched’ between the saddle and the bars. Whether that is within tolerance only you can decide.

As does lowering the stem,

IMO you should at least experiment with bringing your saddle forward a touch and bringing your bars up. It sounds like you’re falling for the ‘lean more on the bars’ approach to managing weight distribution. Again, IMO, that would be a mistake.

I did move it forward a touch and tilted it forward which has a similar effect. However the issues I’m describing are all about descending where your saddle does not play a part, except as a reference point; and 10mm here and there does not affect that much.

I have experimented with saddle fore and aft before; I’ve had two stems and three bars on this bike already :). All these adjustments are to find the position you want; the problem was that I was chasing the wrong position.

“Both heels down supposedly pushes your weight backwards”
That figures. Heels down is more about making sure ones feet don’t slide off no?

the cranks are free to rotate (we’re talking about stood up and coasting here) so all the weight you put into your legs will be applied to the bottom bracket. there is nothing you can do to change that. You can weight the front wheel more by putting more weight through your hands through body position; or by changing the geo or fit of the bike.

On the original question about “weight back” I think the key is actually “weight down”. Tiny short bikes with no droppers (if you’ve been riding 30 years, 1/2 to 2/3 of your riding career!) meant the only way to get weight down was to go back.

However the issues I’m describing are all about descending

Ah! I see. My answer is still higher bars and possibly fork settings too. 😀

Forward weight bias needs a more supportive fork to push against compared to off the back riding too.

I think BITD you were too far forward between the wheels so you had to go back; now you are further back so you have to go forward, which seems best achieved by going low since your torso pivots.

That said, the best way to ride the Patriot on windy flatter stuff was with my bum towards the back wheel. I could turn extremely quickly like that.  The bike was far more manoeuvrable than the Reactor is.  And somehow I had plenty of front wheel grip and could corner on rails.