HS2 spiralling costs

Not sure I’d fancy my chances on the upper deck on a train from Sheffield to London. It goes through the first tunnel after a few miles which is barely high enough for a standard carriage.

The world’s moved on a lot since HS2 started, or even since it started going badly, costs are spiraling, and no real sign that they’ll come down, with even a simple assessment pointing to further increases.

The big thing was to link the two large hubs London and Birmingham, but not exactly a huge saving in terms of time if they’d put it up against cheaper options, same with capacity, we’re now in a world where business want to do most meetings over skype/teams/etc, i know our work and supporting companies have jumped into online meetings big style, and i can’t see them going back, the savings in time and cost are huge, COVID actually had a few benefits for business, it forced them to change archaic processes and suddenly management have bought right into it. Supporting this approach would be good and probably allow the same level of internal business for the UK.

It would be interesting to see an assessment now of what we will get at the current plan, forecast the cost of tickets and so on, then see what the uptake would be, i still struggle to work out how going back up to scotland for me is cheaper via the plane than on a train, and how much UK PLC pay the railways to make it the most expensive form of travel!

they could whack double-decker trains in on longer routes to increase capacity. It doesn’t double capacity, but it would add around 50% with no changes to infrastructure needed at all.

You’d need to raise every bridge, rebore every tunnel and double the height of all the overhead electric wiring not to mention rebuild half the stations – anything with a roof on it would need complete overhaul.

Next?

errr. Height of bridges?

Double deckers do come up every now and again but just not realistic in this country. Also because you’d probably have to have the doors at the end access and egress would be slower, so any capacity increase you might gain could well be lost in extra time waiting at stations..

They were tried briefly in 1946 or so though if you want to Google it..!

Double deckers

Too many low bridges/tunnels, the british rail network hasn’t really been updated since the industial revoloution.

You’d need to raise every bridge, rebore every tunnel and double the height of all the overhead electric wiring not to mention rebuild half the stations – anything with a roof on it would need complete overhaul.

yes, this.

Next?

Make every train half the interior height so still get a double decker but without any change in carriage height? People would need to crawl to their seats though. Or remove all seating and make carriages standing only? (All tongue in cheek suggestion I hasten to add).

Take 2 lanes of the M1 & M6 and build 2 tracks in each direction. Freight on one and fast trains on the other. Stupid expensive road charging on those roads subsidising cheap freight and tickets.

Or my preferred option, bore 2 tunnels under every motorway and make a container conveyor. Charge lorries off the road to pay for it. Delivery hubs at entry points to big cities that only allow zero emissions vehicles.

You can’t add longer trains without upgrading every major station in the UK to accommodate them.

round here and I think the transpennine routes the old platforms are much longer than most trains. Investment in new rolling stock would have given much more bang for the buck

You can’t convert to electric running without massive disruption, probably over weekends/bank holidays, for the next 10-15 years and the travelling public would never go for that.

Managed it on the main Edinburgh / Glasgow line – one of the few 21st century services I know of

Its really was not HS2 or nothing – the amount of money spent could have got much greater benefits. Cross pennine and the rest of the north of England in particular but also in Scotland.

You can’t add longer trains without upgrading every major station in the UK

You can and we do, but there’s an anouncement on the train saying, next station has a small platform, so get to the middle carridge if you want to to get off 😀

Capacity is over 100% at peak times.

I used to get the train into Leeds, about 4 stops out, quite often the train would be well over maximum capacity once the train was 2 stops out.

Luckily, I’m 4 stops out, so I can usually get a seat rather than standing.

us folk up here dont want to come to london

I agree. But some of us want to be able to travel between cities here as if we were part of a 21st century country, and to travel to other places South of us, and to many North of us. Today’s decision basically means new rail is only for the South East and places very close to it. The rest of us can go hang. Or join the traffic. Or fly. Levelling down.

Its really was not HS2 or nothing – the amount of money spent could have got much greater benefits.

90% of the money “saved” by this abandonment of new rail in this region is gone… as if by magic… only 10% is to go to alternative projects. This was also going to happen if the core infrastructure investment was withdrawn. We’re being completely **** over while investment continues in the South East and its satellite regions. Levelling down.

kelvin, your continued repetition of ‘levelling down’ reduces your posts to meaninglessness.

You can’t add longer trains without upgrading every major station in the UK to accommodate them

This is nonsense, most of the trains people want to be longer are at the moment 2 carriages long.

Boris will probs be fvoted back in though;

Leaders should lead from the front… it doesn’t send out a good message to younger gererations though if your’e a slipperly lying ****.

Levelling down

HS2 paid my wages for a couple of years. Trust me it’s a waste it money. 😀

HS2 paid my wages for a couple of years. Trust me it’s a waste it money

I’ve done some NHS suff back in the day, the rule of thumb is drag it out, as it’s a cash cow.. drag it out and put costs.
frigging bullshit.

Lots of discussion passengers here… but I assume rail freight has no future in Britain now, or is everything to go by lorry? Levelling up in any real way is out the window now as industrially the north of england is no mans land

Honestly, what is the bloody point (unless you are on the board of a major civils firm)?

they could whack double-decker trains in on longer routes to increase capacity.

The new triple decker ‘coffin trains’ are the answer. Everyone lying flat in a 2ft high slot.

kelvin, your continued repetition of ‘levelling down’ reduces your posts to meaninglessness

The government have just scrapped all new rail projects in my region. A region that returned lots of Tory MPs promising a “levelling up” programme for us. The reality is we’re getting **** all, while projects continue in London, the South East, and areas close to it. I’ll make fun of that deceitful bullshit phrase as often as I want while we’re talking about this abandonment of our area, our businesses and our families. West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and Manchester all having the brakes put on their future development. Levelling down.

Levelling down is an appropriate phrase. Given the investment in Crossrail etc, unless the north is given the means to keep pace, that is exactly what is happening.

Rail timetables around here have been slashed to bits since covid. Admittedly this is a rural area, but I see no evidence that those resources have been sent to the commuter or cross-pennine routes.

Levelling down is an appropriate phrase. Given the investment in Crossrail etc, unless the north is given the means to keep pace, that is exactly what is happening.

Exactly.

The public purse spend per head on public transport in the south east is huge compared with the rest of the UK.

The projects that are proposed (and/or funded) often focus on the access to London and benefit to South East.

When are people going to realise the whole ‘levelling up’ thing was b***hit right from the start – it was nothing more than a catchphrase.

I’ll make fun of that deceitful bullshit phrase as often as I want while we’re talking about this abandonment of our area, our businesses and our families. West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and Manchester all having the brakes put on their future development. Levelling down

It’s just kind of pointless to keep adding it to the end of your posts on here, you are preaching to the (mostly) converted

the 4 miles from my house to Bank Quay station, finding somewhere to park and walking the last bit took 45 min

Herm, now let me see, I’m sure there must be an easier way of travelling that 4miles.. 😃

Apologies, I wasn’t trying to change anyone’s mind, just venting. My only real point is that this isn’t just some fast trains to London that won’t happen (and I would be unlikely to use), it wrecks all the new rail programmes up here in an area where the service in normal years is failing and packed to bursting. No building back better for us. And definitely not for Bradford.

Kelvin absolutely sympathise with that view but look at the title of this thread – spiralling costs. I guarantee that even the Western leg will still go massively over budget, and once all the money is gone there will be no more left for other improvements…. Transpennine route upgrade, electrification schemes, parkway stations – all these things have been around for years – not dependent on HS2 but still haven’t happened…

I guarantee that even the Western leg will still go massively over budget, and once all the money is gone there will be no more left for other improvements….

This argument gets used a lot in very expensive / very controversial projects, that the money would be better spent [insert anything else that you feel is more deserving].

HS2 is funded by grant-in-aid from the government, the sponsoring department being DfT. There aren’t really detailed controls over exactly what the money gets spent on (as there would be with a general grant which is often extremely specific) however it’s basically ring-fenced “for the aims of that organisation” (the “organisation” in this case being HS2 which is operating as an executive non-departmental public body).

You have to go into a fair bit more detail of how Governments generate money and income (most of which is beyond me) but the basic thrust is that it’s money “generated” for the specific purpose of HS2. It’s not like a household budget where there’s a set amount of savings and you’re deciding on whether to spend it on a new bike or a redecorating the lounge.

It exists solely for the purpose of building HS2.

Northern regional newspapers expressing what must be a pretty much universal opinion up here about this latest in a very very long list of grubby broken promises about investment in the north

Northern newspapers unite to urge government to honour rail promiseshttps://t.co/IsoghECc9x

— ITV News (@itvnews) November 16, 2021

It exists solely for the purpose of building HS2.

its still got to be paid for in some form and it still would have been better value to spend it elsewhere

The magic money tree exists for london based transport projects and a bit of the old porkbarrel but magically disappears when the north or Scotland needs anything

It’s not just about the vast sums of money that’s being spent to benefit a specific part of the country that always benefits from a hugely disproportionate level of funding in areas like transport

It’s the political message that this lot care no more for the north than any other Tory administration, and that phrases like ‘Levelling Up’ and ‘NorthernPowerhouse’ were never anything more than sound bites

We all knew that anyway, but this latest betrayal just hammers it home

I just hope it’s at the forefront of everyone’s mind at the next election

You’d need to raise every bridge, rebore every tunnel and double the height of all the overhead electric wiring not to mention rebuild half the stations

Raising the height of the electric wiring on the east midlands line isn’t going to take long, it barely makes it out of the south east at the moment.

We’re basing all the economics on the current ticket pricing at the moment, which currently means that if you are travelling from Sheffield or Chesterfield with a family using a railcard booking in advance the price is pretty much the same as traveling by taxi. The trains on the line are currently pretty busy although you stand a pretty good chance of getting a seat at the moment which beats standing till Leicester or Derby.

It exists solely for the purpose of building HS2.

So it’s Schroedinger’s money then?

Herm, now let me see, I’m sure there must be an easier way of travelling that 4miles

Go on then, tell me. The bus took 36 min plus a 10 min walk to the station, and the first bus didn’t get me there before the train left. There’s nowhere secure to leave a bike at the station, and my employers forbid cycling on business journeys on safety grounds (although they encouraged commuting by bike).

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/4fa440b9-bf4a-43cb-a6a8-374a7008b084

Grant Shapps on the Integrated Rail Plan now.

So, how long do you reckon they’ll carry on with the ridiculous pretence that the Birmingham to Manchester leg is still going to be built, honest. No, really, it is… definitely!

They’ve got to leave it a reasonable amount of time, I suppose, or they might as well have got it all out of the way in one hit

But they can’t leave it so long so that people actually start to make real-life decisions based on it?

18 months?

And what do we reckon the final outcome will be?

I’m going for 150 billion quid spent and what will effectively be a commuter line from Birmingham to London will be opened by Prime Minister Carrie Johnson in 2035

York Leeds Manchester Liverpool

This needs a highspeed/capacity line.

Indeed. It’s not going to get one though. Or anything else, for that matter. Just some old buses running on Victorian infrastructure

It looks like even the northern Tories aren’t prepared to stick their necks out and defend this one

"This is the danger in selling perpetual sunlight and then leaving it for others to explain the arrival of moonlight"

Conservative MP Huw Merriman says those in Leeds and Bradford may see rail plan as "neither" HS2 or Northern Powerhouse Railhttps://t.co/OlIYXeNnIk pic.twitter.com/8trMfoyx7r

— BBC Politics (@BBCPolitics) November 18, 2021

?Tory MP Sir Edward Leigh: "HS2 was always a white elephant. Now… it's a white elephant missing a leg. Where's that promise?"

?Tory MP Kevin Hollinrake: "A new station would have given (Bradford) a KX-style regen opportunity. The economic price will be paid for generations".

— Pippa Crerar (@PippaCrerar) November 18, 2021

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/north-to-be-given-pie-instead-20211118214402

Don’t worry about the Northern Tories.
They’re still Tories. They’ve not been there too long but they will be doing Tory stuff like dirty hooker sex or gambling or wife-bashing or something.
Soon the Tory whips will have the dirt on them and they’ll shut their wee mouths.

I guess “The North” can consider this another step in Scotland’s footsteps to devolution and possibly more.

But they can’t leave it so long so that people actually start to make real-life decisions based on it?

Why not? Homes have already been compulsory purchased in Yorkshire, and huge amounts of money sunk on preparations here, despite all new lines now stopping at or before its boundaries.

Today is good news for Yorkshire, in the same was as another £40billion being spent on public transport in London (and connecting it to the honorary southern county of Cheshire) is always good for Yorkshire… we get to experience the joys of a modern country on the rare occasions we head down to the capital. Which of course we do less and less now due to being priced off all lines South to help mitigate the packed services.