Against my better judgement I got sucked into a political thread (I try not to honestly, I think it’s an illness)which started off reasonably humoured, due to Boris content, but as always degenerated into Right v Left rhetoric, demonisation and argument, which is OK it’s a forum after all, but at the time of this the thread culminated into a pretty fair summing up of what’s wrong with our current system of politics by this quote from binners

“binners – Member
Both parties are now stuffed with people who got there via exactly the same route

(Predominently Private) School > Oxbridge to study PPE > Party Press Office/Westminster Think Tank > Private Secretary > Parachuted into a safe seat against the wishes of the local party > Junior Minister

Nobody has had anything remotely resembling what most of us recognise as a ‘job’. And we wonder why the country is absolutely ****ed!!!
“

So my question is how could it all be changed, is it not in our gift these days to start new movements? Is there a solution, should it be mandatory for politicians to have spent time generating the Tax they accuse others of dodging?

Would we be better of with technocrats (it could be argued the civil service pretty much does that anyway).

We keep having what we think are a new flavour, for it only to be pretty much the same ole same ole TV friendly figure chasing their perception of the centre ground.

So how would you change things without reverting to the Left/Right, worker/management, public/private sector stereotypical discussion?

Do we as an allegedly democratic society not deserve better than that which we are currently having to deal with?

There are an incredibly unhappy bunch of people in all walks of life right now, could they not be galvanised into instigating some sort of change short of a revolution or it there just too much apathy?

I find it difficult that we as a nation actually put up with some of the crap that goes on in the name of politics.

Anyway, be interested in bike folks views there’s quite a broad spectrum of types here.

Ban unions .sterilize a generation of scum to stop them breeding ,bring back the 11 +and grammar schools ,bring back national service ,stop automatic bus passes, fuel allowances free telly licenses for old people .Means test child benefit.How much more Daily Mail would you like it ?

My personal view of how we should change things, political leaning excluded:

Must be over the age of 35 to stand for election to parliament
Must be able to demonstrate at least 10, verifiable, years work experience outside politics
Fully elected Upper House or second house
Fixed Term 4 or 5 (undecided on which) year Parliaments
Devolution for England (i don’t think asymetric devolution works)
Smaller Federal Parliament for the UK

I’d look at the press rather than the politicians. If the press was seeking to present the best available version of the truth we’d have an informed electorate making informed choices. And that would be a democracy. Instead we have a feedback loop between the press, politicians and the public in which misapprehensions are created and intrenched.

I’d like to see and end to party politics too. Your MP is your committee if the real sense of the word (a committee is a person not a group of people) he represents his whole constituency, not just the people who voted for him. They should stand for election on the basis of their competency to do that, not on the basis of the allegiance they hold or on the basis of any opinions of values of their own.

Proportional Representation: this would make it easier for smaller parties to “break through” whereas no one will currently vote for them thinking it is a wasted vote.

Parties to be taxpayer funded: again, this would help the smaller parties, restricting other “interested parties” throwing cash at the big boys.

Compulsory Voting: given a wider choice, the whole electorate should be forced to express an opinion, even if that is “none of the above”.

mainly what Druidh said I prefer PR and compulsory voting

I dont think the party system helps democracy as they tow the line to get promotion- not sure how you would replace it though or what with

Druidh, What sort of PR are you advocating, there are a number of choices I believe?

Not sure about compulsory voting its a bit “Nanny knows best”, and Australian.

How would you allocate tax money to the parties, based on seats after an election under some form of PR?

Proportional Representation

+1, and full PR, with bigger constituencies.

Where I live, it’ll be a long long time before a Tory gets voted in, so when our Labour MP swans in again, all the Tories feel that they have no MP at the Commons (of course they do, but the feeling is understandable). With bigger consttituencies, we’d have more MPs representing each one of us – and you’d be more likely to feel a connect if the person you voted for, even as a 2nd or 3rd preference got in. It would also allow people to evaluate how good a “constituency MP” their favoured MP had been.

I dont think the party system helps democracy as they tow the line to get promotion-

[pedant] politicians ‘Toe’ the line [/pedant] as in stand behind a line in the chamber – not lunge across the floor. (I thought you’d like that)

If we have party politics I’d like to see PR and coalition as the typical, expected outcome. And for those coalitions to be fluid. Its tiresome to see two major parties taking turns to try and shape the country in their own image as if they could rule unchallenged forever. Each term of office seems mostly to be spent undoing the work of a previous administration.

Candidates shouldn’t be able to state their political allegiance on any election material and instead have elections on policy, remove whips and make MP’s vote according to their views/ those of their constituents. Should do away with dumbasses that vote according to colour on the badge rather than what benefits them and MPs being forced to vote for something they may not agree with.

There was a thread recently which again pointed out that our elections are actually decided by a small minority of swing voters in marginal constituencies. So yes, some variation on PR please: my vote in my extremely safe constituency currently means absolutely naff all.

What druidh said (but I’m not sure about compulsory voting either).

There was a thread recently which again pointed out that our elections are actually decided by a small minority of swing voters in marginal constituencies. So yes, some variation on PR please: my vote in my extremely safe constituency currently means absolutely naff all.

Thats the seesaw back and forth that I don’t like – turning something quite subtle and fluid into a completely binary result. Our political landscape should only have been subtly remodelled at the last election.

Its a shame that the press made such a muddled and uninformed mire of the AV vote, although its was deliberately rushed to make sure the electorate voted without thinking.

That said I think a lot of voters support parties like they support football teams and like feeling like a winner sometimes.

the only possible thing to change is your self. if you want to change things on a national level, try and identify what it is and see how you can do something to affect that change on a local level. mp’s? government? waste of time.

Its tiresome to see two major parties taking turns to try and shape the country in their own image as if they could rule unchallenged forever. Each term of office seems mostly to be spent undoing the work of a previous administration.

A relative used to be fairly senior in regional NHS/Health Department, she said whoever was in power had no interest in successful policies/schemes unless they set them up themselves and could take the credit. Didn’t even matter if it had been set up by someone in their own party, unless they could get the credit they just weren’t interested. 😐

Compulsory Voting: I don’t know how it could be made to work but I do feel that it would force more people (by no means all) to give the whole thing a bit more thought.

The PR system used for the Scottish Parliament (regional top-up) has allowed some smaller parties to obtain representation (though we are also in danger of ending up with a binary system).

Smaller parties would allow prospective MPs to find people they share more in common with whereas the current system often means having to compromise on too many individual beliefs in order to get into a grouping that can have any effect.

Significant don’t you think that there’s not a dissenting voice suggesting the system as it is is just fine.

I’m not so sure about compulsory voting, that smacks of votes being paid for, although it could be argued there’s an element of that already with the Taxi services and alleged postal vote fixing by certain ethical groups, then there’s Gerrymandering and even now the boundary fixing.

I live in a hopeless constituency, we had to rely on the MP for another constituency to make our protests against the devastation the Channel Tunnel wrought on our community and Port from which it never recovered, including the removal of the Town name from signposts, our MP was a Thatcher toady wannabe called Michael Howard who didn’t want to rock the boat. My every vote has been wasted, so PR might have helped, but not the watered down hotch potch they voted out last time.

But even so, how can a population so disenfranchised, ever make itself heard without resorting to strife. Short of a total strike by everyone or refusal to pay tax unless certain terms are met, but that would take some organisation and a cohesive plan and set of demands.

Centralised funding for election campaigns. No funding by big business or unions. I don’t know how this can be seen as acceptable.

as I think politicians have moved away from bettering the country to bettering themsleves (at the expense of the country) and that the confrontational/sucks yah-boo/desperation to get elected means that parties deliberately and maliciously engineer problems for the next party I think a longer term solution is required, so I’d either go management committee (with pensions etc, salary clawback etc linked to country wellbeing) or for national lottery selection (everybody in country forcibly entered – they can either do 5 years as an mp or 5 years in prison)

The system as it is just fine. The fundamental issue with politics today is that the big idealogical debates have been “won” and so there is a cigarette paper between the parties in reality. The difference between Labour’s and the Coalition’s spending plans are tiny but it is in both their interest to exaggerate the difference for public consumption. Most of the Tories’ education and NHS reforms are what Labour were planning anyway, albeit faster. All a PR system would do is cement the power of the centre further and there would be even less room for radical alternatives to be debated.

Compulsory Voting: I don’t know how it could be made to work but I do feel that it would force more people (by no means all) to give the whole thing a bit more thought.

I don’t think making it achieves that at all. If half the population (frinstance) don’t vote now compulsory voting would mean half the votes would be thoughtless/random/arbitrary.

No MPs under 35 is a good one….may actually result in some who have done a days work and not just known the bubble that is Oxbridge PPE and on to Westminster.

No more than 2 terms for a PM, the yanks have got this one spot on.

An English parliament.

PR voting.

Has to be full PR based on Multi-Member Areas and Party lists. Not this alternative vote load of cock favored by the Lib Dems.

Sadly my preferred version of PR seems to be in use in 80% of democracies using PR systems in the world are based. Those up for election based on party lists in multi member areas. Apparently…. so the google machine said

and that was the worst post i’ve ever made lol

Lose the tribal party element, and short term governments.

Agreed no MP’s under 35, that young Sarah Teather what does she know ffs, straight from education to jnr minister families via a party nobody really wants in power then re shuffled presumably back to the benches for being a know nothing.

The system as it is just fine. The fundamental issue with politics today is that the big idealogical debates have been “won” and so there is a cigarette paper between the parties in reality. The difference between Labour’s and the Coalition’s spending plans are tiny but it is in both their interest to exaggerate the difference for public consumption. Most of the Tories’ education and NHS reforms are what Labour were planning anyway, albeit faster. All a PR system would do is cement the power of the centre further and there would be even less room for radical alternatives to be debated.

That your take– the big idealogical debates have been won ?

that is a pretty cast iron, non debatable statement!

I rather think not, no ‘debates’ have even taken place– plenty of guff, fear of alternative ideologies, the labour party has all but give up any pretence of socialism, all they can do is prostrate themselves as the fairer capitalist, as opposed to the rough type, its like how do you like yer buggery, with or without lube!

Nay mate, this old world is undergoing big stresses, we live in a part that was a driving force, but is now in decline, once the city of london is usurped by shanghai, the finace sector will wither, since free marketeers have destroyed what we had of manufacturing, and related skills , we are left with a memory of importance, like many hegemonies past, we will find our future very different.

There is though a way to alter this, in the 1926 general strike ,soviets or workers councils sprang up in many parts of the uk, so its not alien that we can one day be masters of our own destiny, not some parliamentary trick show, where careerists josh for self interest.

Has to be full PR based on Multi-Member Areas and Party lists. Not this alternative vote load of cock favored by the Lib Dems.

AV wasn’t the libdem favoured option, it was the option offered by the tories to get the libdems into coalition. Glad so many were taking notice and making informed decisions.

Even though AV was a pretty poor alternative to PR, it was likely to be a stepping stone to that eventually, I now doubt I will see another opportunity in my lifetime.

Anyone who wants to be a politician should not be permitted to do so. ministers should be selected like jury service. I’m sure STW could round off the edges of that idea and make it work.

Tax pasties.

mefty – Member
The system as it is just fine. The fundamental issue with politics today is that the big idealogical debates have been “won” and so there is a cigarette paper between the parties in reality. The difference between Labour’s and the Coalition’s spending plans are tiny but it is in both their interest to exaggerate the difference for public consumption. Most of the Tories’ education and NHS reforms are what Labour were planning anyway, albeit faster. All a PR system would do is cement the power of the centre further and there would be even less room for radical alternatives to be debated.

Kind of contradicting yourself there mefty, saying the system is fine yet suggesting radical alternatives can’t be debated. It’s not fine precisely because there is no room for radical options to reach the ballot paper with any hope of support.

And anyway since when is it radical that we can’t turf out cheating politicians who support a totally corrupt financial system. Need I remind you if any of us got caught fiddling our expenses to clear the wisteria from our chimney we’d have been fired rather than being allowed to give the money back then made Prime Minister?

make being an MP an unpaid job, or at maybe pay em £25k. Attract people with the passion to make a difference rather than rich people who want to make things easier for them and their mates.

Problem with PR, is that nobody wants the BNP or any other extremist minority group to have a platform or a voice.

Problem with PR, is that nobody wants the BNP or any other extremist minority group to have a platform or a voice.

I don’t mind you and your chums having a voice Z-11, as long as you/they stay within the law. However, their voice would be very small, as not many people are actual proper racists.

Kind of contradicting yourself there mefty, saying the system is fine yet suggesting radical alternatives can’t be debated

Not at all, I think there is more chance of a radical alternative being promulgated within one of the major parties and being effective than if done by a small party in a PR world, where there are very few real power shifts over the course of time. If you look at countries that have PR, power has been dominated by one or two central parties. At present, we have the same but at least with big swings first past the post can give, there is more opportunity for change.

Unfortunately for you I don’t think there is a lot of support for what you wish for – but your best chance of achieving your goals is to join a major party and influence it.

jury service style mp’s paid at their current salary for 1 term.

Voting in a general election is like being forced to choose which is the least offensive from a selection of turds, before being informed that you’ll be taking said turd home and putting it on your mantelpiece for the next half a decade.

There’s little or no incentive for parties to stick to their election pledges, to set aside the sideshow of sniping and narrow party policy differences. They know if they manage to hoodwink a few marginals into believing that they’re a teeny bit less shite than the opposition, they’ll have carte blanche to put cronies in charge of everything and seem to collectively shrug shoulders when everything invariably becomes much more expensive and/or more rubbish.

I think the best thing we can do now is to find a way to stop the endless conveyor belt full of career politicians with little or no real world experience from being allowed to hold office. I’d also make misleading the electorate a rigorously enforced criminal offence, to be enforced retrospectively all the way back to 1979, or forfeiture of pension and estate of those found guilty.

I think Knightrider has an idea there.

If you think that any of the recommendations made so far would fundamentally change anything then you are incredibly naive.