How the hell do you deal with Jehovah’s

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1415267/uk-belief-in-god/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/369080/church-of-england-attendance-by-service-uk/

Lie damn lies and statistics

That’s amazing.

So belief is highest amongst the senile, the indoctrinated, the thick, the racists and the anti-vaxers

That’s one way of putting it. Perhaps you might like to edit the Wiki page accordingly? ;-)

That’s Britian and England TJ, you said “Europe”.

And you don’t trust official EU statistics? You are not a very loyal rejoiner!

It’s OK, the Christian church is getting some high quality new converts to bolster the numbers:

My life has changed. Praise Jesus. pic.twitter.com/E7ePECmrqR

— Russell Brand (@rustyrockets) September 6, 2024

All of european stats are there – its just an example – the difference between folk who say that are of a certain religion, the number who actually believe in the god and the number who actually practice are very differnt

So even in the most irreligious country in Europe (France surprisingly) only 40% say they are of no faith.

It’s quite interesting… I wonder how many just tick the closest ‘christian’ box, as they were baptised and are white skinned, for example.

Can you really call yourself a christian just because you were raised in a pseudo-christian society? I think a lot of it is semantics, or rather, people assuming they are christian just because they celebrate the birth of santa-claus and buy excessive volumes of chocalate in April.

the number who actually believe in the god and the number who actually practice are very differnt

Er, yeah . But that’s not what you were saying.

And I was simply pointing out that most Europeans are not atheists.

In England folk put CoE down as their religion even if they do not practice it

England I suspect (I don’t know) is something of an outlier here.

England’s take on Christianity is mostly a wet lettuce of a faith.  As a kid I once asked my mum what religion we were, she replied “Christian”; the only time I’ve ever set foot inside a church is weddings, funerals and tourism.  I know people who call themselves good Christians because they attend Midnight Mass every year.  I’m sure we have our properly devout but I’d hazard that for many it’s a box-ticking exercise on the census form (which loops back into what I was talking about earlier).

Compare and contrast say, Islam in the UK which is very definitely actively practised.  Or Christianity outside of the UK, go have a wander around the “Bible Belt” states of the US, they have 1/3rd scale models of Mary in their front gardens (and also, shotguns).

For all that we may complain about non-secular interference, we have it quite lightly in the grand scheme of things.

That’s one way of putting it. Perhaps you might like to edit the Wiki page accordingly? ;-)

I mean, I wasn’t suggesting exclusivity. I have friends of faith who I’d consider more intelligent than I am, I was merely commenting on the posted statistic.

That will be among 80% of EU citizens then.

Well.  QED?  I dunno, I don’t have statistics to hand.

Is that what you’re asserting, that 80% of EU citizens identify as religious in some form and the other 20% as atheist?  Where do the agnostics fit in?  You didn’t show your working so it’s difficult to discuss.

To be honest I’m surprised the multiple gods model hasn’t really survived. They would have far more trinkets to sell to the gullible.

It’s OK, the Christian church is getting some high quality new converts to bolster the numbers:

Rapists for Jesus?

pic.twitter.com/FUjZbbdh6u

— Cold War Steve (@coldwarsteve) September 7, 2024

Ah, so you’re a frying pantheist?

You didn’t show your working

I mentioned that apparently 20% don’t believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force so I am assuming that 80% do. I am excluding any don’t knows as Eurostat doesn’t mention them.

20% v 80% isn’t close so even if you wanted to tinkle with the figures I think it is safe to say that most Europeans are not atheists, which was the claim that was being made.

It’s a badly phrased question though…it seems to be basically, are you religous or not?

There doesn’t seems to be any differentiation between say, agnostics, athiests and anti-theists. And I suspect that, a question that specific, would be lost on most people, who would simply think ‘I put a tree and some lights up in December, so I must be a christian’.

It’s a badly phrased question though

Eurostat is a Directorate-General of the European Commission :

“Eurostat’s main responsibilities are to provide statistical information to the institutions of the European Union”

I suggest a strongly worded letter highlighting that they are rubbish at their job.

i once invited them in :0(, i thought they were the local charity who had come to pickup a sofa/settee

thankfully, they looked shocked and i asked them if they’d come for the sofa, appologised for the misunderstanding and shut the door

Contrary to Ernies assertion above less than half of all french folk believe in a god,  The number of folk who believe in god is a minority and is decreasing every year as the older believers die off and the younger non belivers increase in number

https://www.statista.com/statistics/998058/belief-in-god-france/

This is all of course lies damn lies and statistics and on this question in particular its all about how you ask the question.  Ask “what religion you are” and you get a higher number than “do you believe in god”

Is it plausible that there is some sort of god?  My own personal feelings aside, sure, it’s unlikely but possible.

This is my position. Some scientists think that we’re living in a simulation, I put the possibility of a deity in the same category. I’m fine with the ambiguity, others less so.

Contrary to Ernies assertion above less than half of all french folk believe in a god,

I haven’t asserted anything, why do you say that?

The assertion was made by Eurostat, based apparently on their research.

I had a few dates with a Johovah Witness woman many years ago (pre online dating, this was old skool chatting someone up at work!) She was my absolute dream woman. In the end, I just couldn’t persuade her to cheat on her husband. Religious reasons eh. Pah.

The radio announced recntly that the number of regular church goers (once a week) was down to 6%. Locally that would suggest around 10 000 people between all the churches, mosques etc. In other words they’d be full every service, they aren’t.

Because thats exactly what you did and you extrapolated to a conclusion not supported by the evidence

There is a massive difference between those who answer “protestant” ( for example) and those who believe in god.  The first includes all the non believers that are culturally of that religion

Ever heard of “secular jew”? as an example

the simple fact is that actual believers in god are a falling minority

the simple fact is that actual believers in god are a falling minority

Thank God for that ! ;)

Because thats exactly what you did and you extrapolated to a conclusion not supported by the evidence

Now you are just making stuff up as you go along. I did not extrapolate anything. I provided the results of a survey carried out by Eurostat, I specifically pointed out the 20% according to Eurostat “don’t believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force”

It is you who is drawing their own conclusions from that, not me. It wasn’t even me who posted the Eurostat link.

It would appear that Europeans are more spiritual than you claimed. And it was you that brought up Europeans btw, I have no idea why – do you think that they are somehow superior to non- Europeans?

Hang on you’ve all got it wrong.  I read something once the gist of it was:

This is a CULT. They send their people out in the world to show the victims how AWFUL the world is.

The leaders are not actually trying to save your soul or convert you, they dopn’t actually want you to join and start asking questions. The victims are being manipulated.

They knock on your door, you are rude to them. Or you talk about satan. Or you invite them in to see your Ouija board.

The victims come away with an impression that’s what the world is like, full of rude, awful satan worshippers who take glee in doing things (blood transfusions) that the victims have been brainwashed into believing is terrible.

This makes the victims turn inwards even more to the cult and the safe sanctuary it provides.

The victims don’t actually like or enjoy knocking on your door, they hate it.

Remember they are victims – be nice to them and they will see the outside world is actually nice and might break out of the cult.

Whereas I provided stats that show believers in god are a falling minority

Jeepers you are good at debate.  Are you Socrates reincarnated :-)

Whereas I provided stats that show…….

I am surprised that you have so little faith in an EU government department TJ. The role of Eurostat is to provide vital and important information to an administration which governs nearly 450 million people, you would expect them to get things vaguely right.

If their claim that 20% of EU citizens  “don’t believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force” is wrong and the majority don’t then they have got things wildly wrong.

Which would make you wonder what else they got wrong.

Whereas I provided stats that show believers in god are a falling minority

And rest a fallen majority?

Next time i am going to do them a deal, i will listen to one of their bible quotes on he condition they read a quote of my choosing.

Timothy 2:12 will be my first one, i hope its a couple of women.

I will note their responses to each quote.

They send their people out in the world to show the victims how AWFUL the world is.

Their people are already out in the world. My kids went to school with JW children and we got along fine with the parents. I’m sure we’ve all encountered them at work or social situations without even realising, and found them perfectly normal and agreeable. They don’t live in a big compound at the edge of town.

They do outreach because it is a firm requirement of their religion (hence the name). JW HQ certainly used to collect data on the number of hours of door-knocking done by each branch. All evangelicals are supposed to do this (hence the name), but most evangelical churches skip this for the most part because it feels nicer and more comfortable not to have doors shut in their faces, although some members do seem to take pleasure in telling people they’re going to hell.

The JWs distribute literature which encourages people to attend their Kingdom Hall meetings, which strictly speaking they don’t have to do to meet the quota, so it’s not a completely closed cult as such, although it displays a lot of very culty signals when it comes to stuff like disfellowshipping and shunning.

 As society became more complex some men realised it was a good way of gathering wealth and power and control over women and that is how its been used since.

Without Christianity we wouldn’t have the secular (an invention of French medieval theologists) or democracy human rights, socialism, revolution, feminism, individualism, and science. I think just concentrating on the worst aspects of organised religion while not appreciating that rights that we take for granted were largely, if not wholly, the invention and inspiration of the religious folks of history especially from the Renaissance and the Enlightenment is missing out more than ‘some’ bits of history

Really?  some of that stuff predates christianity and some of that stuff christianity actively opposed

Feminism?  How on earth can you say that with a straight face.  all religions I know of are misogynistic  Christianity certainly with women still treated as second class even now

Who knew the ancient Athenians were Christian?

Feminism?  How on earth can you say that with a straight face.

Hildegard of Bingen and Julian of Norwich (a woman confusingly) were both writing proto-feminist texts in the middle ages, and lots of the first-wave feminists of the 19th C; Bushnell, Booth, Willard were all very Christian.

Without Christianity we wouldn’t have the secular (an invention of French medieval theologists) or democracy human rights, socialism, revolution, feminism, individualism, and science.

Well the Greeks weren’t Christian but had a democracy

L’Etat laïc in France had nothing to do with the clergy

The Inquistors weren’t too worried about human rights and nor are modern day chrisitan churches with several prosecutions for human rights violations

Socialism: many types of socialism, my prefered being socialist humanism

Revolution: eh?! the revolutionaires went around destrying anything too religious in their eyes

Feminism: You’re having a laugh now, have you ever read the Bible?

Science: Galileo was tried by the clerics and ended his life under house arrest. He was lucky, Bruno was burned alive

I think you’re forgetting that not pandering to the church was not really a possibility until quite recently whatever people really thouhgt.

The radio announced recntly that the number of regular church goers (once a week) was down to 6%. Locally that would suggest around 10 000 people between all the churches, mosques etc. In other words they’d be full every service, they aren’t.

Where on earth do you live where you class “locally” as 17 million people?

Where I live, 6% is about 500 people. We have (that I’m aware of, at least) eleven churches here.

Without Christianity we wouldn’t have the secular

Woah, hang on. You’re arguing that in order for the church not to have special privileges or interfere with politics, we first have to have the church?

Wow.

Hildegard of Bingen and Julian of Norwich (a woman confusingly) were both writing proto-feminist texts in the middle ages, and lots of the first-wave feminists of the 19th C; Bushnell, Booth, Willard were all very Christian.

Can you think of any that would also require your other hand to count them on?  The fact these women were, I assume, notable outliers does not reinforce your position but rather the opposite.  Feminism only existed – and, shamefully, continues to exist today – because of inequality.

I wonder, does history record how their church received their output at the time?  I don’t recall ever reading how tolerance and acceptance of potentially subversive views were a key feature of life in either the Middle Ages or C19.

 I don’t recall ever reading how tolerance and acceptance of potentially subversive views were a key feature of life in either the Middle Ages or C19.

Read more widely then.

“Do your own research.”

Well the Greeks weren’t Christian but had a democracy

But the democracy that we enjoy and which Nick is referring to was not handed to us by the ancient Greeks, only the word. In the same way that we don’t have to thank the Greeks for inventing “hysterectomies”

The ancient Greeks did not have representative democracy anyway and plenty of primative societies had highly democratic structures – Google “primitive communism” for examples.