How the hell do you deal with Jehovah’s

Do you really think you’ll convert anyone with such a childish comparison? Incredibly rude.

I don’t think TJ is trying to ‘convert’ anyone. I also don’t see anything childish or rude in what he wrote. It’s factually correct.  Could you explain why you think it’s rude?

On the face of it, it’s straightforwardly true, I suppose it depends to what extent we should be sensitive to folk whose entire identity is wrapped up in whatever belief system we’re currently dismissing.

And to what extent those beliefs have been historically allowed to impinge on the freedoms of the rest of us. Personally, I’ve not noticed followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster outlawing gay relationships, for example, or exerting undue control over female reproductive health. Which both seem somewhat ‘rude’ to me.

So, overall, I’m pretty sure that individual followers of various faiths still get a decent amount of deference and courtesy, even if their belief systems are, in many ways, a stain on history.

We don’t need any evidence that god does not exist.  There is no evidence of the existence of any gods. Thus can safely conclude there are none

By that logic planets outside the solar system sprang into existence in 1988.   I don’t doubt your findings but your logic and reasoning is a bit poor

There is a huge difference between being decent to folk as individuals and respecting them and their faith because of what it means to them which I unfailingly do and criticizing the organisations and using logic to pick apart the fallacies they have in their creed

Its is a bit of a childish argument I made – because of its very simplicity.  I could have made that argument when I was 12

Theists can also be very rude and not even realise it

I have been told I am a lessor being for not having faith

I have been told I can have no morals without faith

Its is a bit of a childish argument I made – because of its very simplicity. I could have made that argument when I was 12

But one that still holds up, whatever age you are.  I agree with you TJ (I won’t make a habit of it ;-) You can/should be polite and respectful of strongly held views you don’t agree with, if they clearly mean a great deal to someone. Acknowledge the beliefs, but don’t offer your opinions unless asked. But if you are asked what you think, you should be honest. Or if you are discussing them on a forum with a range of views. I can’t imagine anyone would expect contributors to show deference to any particular belief system on STW? Discuss it? Defend it? Challenge it? Yes to all those. Show deference to it? Nope.

Theists can also be very rude and not even realise it

I have been told I am a lessor being for not having faith

I have been told I can have no morals without faith

What has their behaviour got to do with your behaviour?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?  Judge not lest ye be judged?

:-)

What has their behaviour got to do with your behaviour?

Unless you’re some kind of automaton, the way you interact with another human irl is very much influenced by their behaviour towards you.

Its actually a fair point from Ernie – but I do not treat individuals badly or put them down.  Indeed all thru my career because of my dislike of religion I made sure that I was more than fair – as before taking folk in my care to their place of worship in my own time, fighting for them to have futile treatment because their religion needed it etc etc

~Edit – when those two statements were made in the workplace by folk junior to me I just walked away silently.  I could have created a huge fuss but I knew that tho those statements were highly offensive that offense was not meant.  Both made by nuns whose life experience was very limited and who had been indoctrinated for decades

Unless you’re some kind of automaton

Or you make a point of going beyond knee jerk reactions and don’t allow others to dictate your own behaviour.

By that logic planets outside the solar system sprang into existence in 1988.

Well before then by studying and understanding our own solar system there would be considerable evidence that similar systems would exist around other stars in our galaxy and by extension around stars in other galaxies.

Im guessing you are more of a new testament ” turn the other cheek” sort of guy Ernie rather than and old testament ” and eye for an eye”
:-)

I understand what you are saying Ernie and I agree with it in principle. I am just saying that in reality, it can be hard not to be influenced by someone else’s behaviour towards you (positive or negative) in a ftf interaction. That’s not to say I will respond in kind if they are rude or confrontational, but I am going to politely draw it to a swift conclusion rather than engaging in conversation which I might otherwise do if they were more reasonable.

On the other hand, if they are polite and engaging, I am far more likely to chat or discuss stuff, even if they hold views I disagree with. To be fair, most JWs fall into the latter category.

I know that one of your favourite sayings TJ is an eye for an eye makes us blind so I know that you understand my point.

Just because someone else behaves in a certain manner doesn’t necessarily justify your behaviour.

On the issue of Jehovah’s Witnesses maybe I have been extremely lucky but IME exchanges have always been extraordinarily polite and finalised without anyone getting upset about anything.

leaves aren’t green , they reflect green light, or the wavelength of light that we agree to call “green”.

Isn’t it more that they absorb light which isn’t ‘green’? (Is that a different concept? I’m not sure.)

How did Christianity spread to Africa, the Americas?

Missionaries, and not always very nice ones.

By that logic planets outside the solar system sprang into existence in 1988.

We know that we orbit a star, along with other planets. We know there are billions upon billions of other stars in the sky. It would be beyond stupid to assume that we were the only solar system in the universe, even if the likelihood was vanishingly low there would still be shitloads because Big Numbers. Life on other planets is pretty much a certainty, but it will be a really long way away.

Just because we haven’t found any evidence of (a) deity doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Doesn’t mean they do either.  Grasp those straws, grasp them!

We still don’t know what the larger proportion of the visible universe is even made of.

Don’t we?

Saying there isn’t a god because we haven’t discovered one is scientifically illiterate. The only conclusion is ‘It seems unlikely’ but that’s as definitive as you can get.

Saying there isn’t a god because we haven’t discovered one and have little reason to think there is beyond conjecture is a pretty sound scientific theory which, of course, would be revised in light of any new evidence.  (Unlike any religion you care to think of.)

How are you getting on with my unicorns?

The point is that the wavelength of light isn’t subjective, just the description.

We still don’t know what the larger proportion of the visible universe is even made of.

Don’t we?

I’m guessing that refers to dark matter (although I might be wrong as that is of course not visible)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

Saying there isn’t a god because we haven’t discovered one is scientifically illiterate.

No it isn’t. Scientists spend their time looking for things that they suspect may exist.

Countdown….To Thread Close Down.

10, 9, 8….. Forum will self destruction in….

‘Can we have a god thread?’

‘Can we have a god thread?’

There is nothing stopping you starting one. There have been a few before. I’d be surprised if anything new comes out of it or if any minds are changed one way or the other.

Ha, no was just a reference to the dog thread and those topics that always go sideways.
Was my first participation in a religion thread actually. 4/5, would do again (after a bit more reading)

Ha, very good! Straight over my head obvs <blushing emoji>

No it isn’t. Scientists spend their time looking for things that they suspect may exist.

This is a fair point. People have searched using tools recognised as scientific for existence of many things from the important (Higgs boson) to the frivolous (Loch Ness Monster). If an almighty force actually existed, proving so with scientific certainty would be just about the most important find of all time. I mean, if you were a JW it would be a shit ton more persuasive in bringing the rest of us round to their way of thinking than knocking on doors on the off chance of being invited in for a cuppa. YOU might not need the scientific proof to believe, but if you were put on earth to convert others what better way to do it?

Weirdly, the world is not awash with scientific bodies carrying out research studies on the matter. I’m struggling to work out why……..

It’s akin to the flat earthers who, for some reason, don’t take the simple step of travelling to the ice wall at the end of the map and bring back some photos. That would end the debate once and for all.

I never see these threads as one side trying to convert the other. They’re normally quite interesting and a good old debate. This is the first one I’ve been in where it has taken a turn from religion itself to an Is there a higher power debate.

Sorry if this offends any of a religious persuasion but, it is patently obvious that all religions are man made. They borrow concepts from each other, have similar frameworks and bigger plotholes than Star Wars films. As for some sort of higher power/powerful being. That’s a whole other kettle of fish in my opinion. Is it possible, well yeah, pretty much anything is. Is it probable, with what we currently know, I would have to say no. I’ll revisit my opinion should any evidence come to light.

My opinion:

Religion was originally an attempt at explaining a complex world.   As society became more complex some men realised it was a good way of gathering wealth and power and control over women and that is how its been used since.  In much of europe most folk have seen through it and its very much a minority who believe tho its still used as a control method in some countries including the US

In much of europe most folk have seen through it and its very much a minority who believe

Atheists are not a majority in Europe.

Yet.

Sorry if this offends any of a religious persuasion but, it is patently obvious that all religions are man made.

Indeed.

Is it plausible that there is some sort of god?  My own personal feelings aside, sure, it’s unlikely but possible.

Is it plausible that man accurately documented such a thing a couple of millennia ago?  Not while I’ve got a hole in my arse.  If understanding the nature of god is supposedly out of the reach of man’s comprehension then ipso facto any religious text is bunk.

Depends on how you define the religious. If you take church goers as a mark then it certainly is a small minority that go to any house of worship right across europe.

Atheists are not a majority in Europe.

Based on what? census info? in that case I’m religious as I’m down as a Jedi.

Not while I’ve got a hole in my arse.

Is that a challenge?

Religion and proctology appearing in the same thread shouldn’t come completely as a shock to many folk.

Based on what?

Interesting Wiki page on it. Religion in the European Union.

Extract:

Atheism and agnosticism have increased among the general population in Europe, with falling church attendance and membership in many countries.[19][20] The countries where the most people reported no religious belief were France (40%), Czech Republic (37%), Sweden (34%), Netherlands (30%), Estonia (29%), Germany (27%), Belgium (27%) and Slovenia (26%).[5] The most religious societies are those in Romania with 1% non-believers and Malta with 2% non-believers. Across the EU, belief was higher among: the elderly, those with strict upbringings, those with the lowest levels of formal education, those leaning towards right-wing politics, and those more concerned with moral and ethical issues in science and technology over risk-benefit analysis.

So even in the most irreligious country in Europe (France surprisingly) only 40% say they are of no faith.

Ernie – now look at those practicing their religion and find its actually a tiny minority

In England folk put CoE down as their religion even if they do not practice it

Its the difference between being culturally religion A and practicing religion A

So even in the most irreligious country in Europe (France surprisingly) only 40% say they are of no faith.

Yeah most people say that they have a spiritual side to them even if they don’t follow an organised religion.

From that link a  Eurostat’s Eurobarometer survey in 2010 showed that 20% of EU citizens don’t believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force.

TBH I am surprised it is that small.

Across the EU, belief was higher among: the elderly, those with strict upbringings, those with the lowest levels of formal education, those leaning towards right-wing politics, and those more concerned with moral and ethical issues in science and technology over risk-benefit analysis.

That’s amazing.

So belief is highest amongst the senile, the indoctrinated, the thick, the racists and the anti-vaxers.

So belief is highest amongst the senile, the indoctrinated, the thick, the racists and the anti-vaxers.

That will be among 80% of EU citizens then.