How the hell do you deal with Jehovah’s

To return to the question, when I lived in Nottingham we got visited a lot – our neighbourhood must have been the training ground or something.

At the same time my mum was the Clerk of the Nottingham Society of Friends (Quakers). This info was enough to get us off the list, admittedly I forgot to tell them that mum didn’t live there and we are agnostic.

I welcome ALL religions to have a chat with me.  No problem whatsoever provided I am free and Not in the morning.

Just last week I had Harvest Church people knocked on my door to give me a booklet which I accepted, the person was friendly and I think I was the only person that answered the door that morning.  The person was polite etc.

As far as I am concerned, there are good and bad apples in all areas of society regardless; and In religion, just as in the society, you get corruption of thoughts or teachings etc.

IMO, it is pointless trying to save humanity because the nature of things will deal with them accordingly.  There is not a single religion that try to save the whole humanity because that is not how things work (as far as I know and if they really understand their own teachings).  No one religion should force others to join or to convert because if they understand their own teachings they would know that it is a sin to force (all religions).   However, as in any form of corruption, the people who perceive themselves as the “chosen” ones (notice the similarity with all political leaders past and present?) will see themselves as the rightful person to exercise “control” over others using whatever form there is.  Religions to those who are corrupted are merely a vehicle to achieve their own aims.  They have no clue of the real teachings.

If you ask me (my own views) what would I do with humanity? I would say let them burn. Burn!  (my view is “inline” with more religious teaching on this matter – go check yourself)  The logic is very simple, it is not their time to be saved yet.  i.e. let the nature takes it course.  Staying truthful to the right teaching will be enough for the individual self.

As for political thoughts, now that is a “god” walking. This comes to my mind “In the name of saving the environment etc let me dictate to you the way of your life.  Thou shall Not smoke anyway near me coz you are forcing the smoke onto my lungs etc because I want to live forever. (they then set up rules to punish in the name of democracy)”  Yeah right. LOL!

@Jameso, good points.

If you just ask them to remove your address from their list they won’t call again. I’ve done that at all my previous addresses, they once turned up by mistake and when I said I’d already been asked to be taken off they couldn’t apologise enough :)

I’m polite with Jehovah’s but I have much less patience with doorstep cold callers!

I’m descendant of one JW parent and one staunch atheist parent with both sides equally as intolerant and tedious as the other (as symbolised here, predictably). It was exactly as much fun to grow up around as it sounds.

Charity tin rattlers, SKY sales people in shopping centres, Oxfam street muggers, cold-callers and religious door-steppers. They’re all just doing their thing. It’s not my thing. It takes no real manners at all to politely say “no thanks” and continue on with your day.

Some right fanciful bollocks spouted on here at times, goodness me.

My old neighbours when I lived in Melbourne got arrested for inviting them in and giving them tea and hash cookies.

I just close the door and say bye.

I’ve just remembered one encounter from when I was about 12 (ish).

They insisted I take some leaflets.

Me:  “Er, thanks. Bye” and went to close the door.
JW: “Oi, we want a donation for the leaflets”
Me: “Oh sorry, have them back”
JW: “No, we want you to have them”

After going round this loop a few times I put the leaflets on the doorstep and slowly shut the door.

I don’t think either side had a clue what was going on!

It is often complicated by the fact that they have a low tolerance threshold towards people with different views to their own, and which they struggle to accept.

I put it down to the lack of a Christian upbringing.

Whenever I have met JW’s, I find they have a really strange cold friendliness, it is very artificial but not necessarily acting for the benefit others but like they are trying to will themselves to be positive and cheerful, but there is no substance behind it.

At the risk of repeating myself, doubt does not require faith.  The notion that I don’t have a unicorn infestation in my cellar is not dependent on a belief system.

And the crux of the concept of god is that we can’t open the cellar door to prove it either way, it was canny marketing when it came up first.

To me some doubt in atheism is there because my uncertainty over what it actually is to reject belief in, so I have to accept a possibility. Personally I would need faith/confidence/trust to take a position of certainty on the rejection.

That’s all said recognising how saying ‘it can’t be defined / is hard for me to define’ makes the position weak and it isn’t meant as a defence tactic – it really is IDK so despite inclination to not believe I can’t quite agree that it can or can’t be so. Close to ‘weak atheism’ I think rather than agnostic views. Which is why the JWs would get a thanks but you’d be wasting your time on me, having said that welcome for a cuppa and a chat if you like type of response. Perhaps that comes from thinking the more different to me someone is the more interesting a conversation might be, more than anything about religion itself. I’d prob bore them and they wouldn’t come back : )

Firmly. Respectfully. Adding if they return that you will then report them for harassment which it will be.

To me some doubt in atheism is there because my uncertainty over what it actually is to reject belief in, so I have to accept a possibility.

Do you accept the possibility of my unicorns?

If you need to compile a list of things to not believe in before you can reject those beliefs, it’s amazing you find time to do anything else.

It is often complicated by the fact that they have a low tolerance threshold towards people with different views to their own, and which they struggle to accept.

I put it down to the lack of a Christian upbringing.

If those two digs are aimed at me:

1) I went to church schools

2) I respect individuals of all sorts.  I have no time for organised religion.

I have fought for religious folk to have futile treatment because thats what they wanted guided by their religion.  I have taken religious folk to their place of worship in my own time because it was a comfort to them.   Thats respect for individuals and their beliefs.

I have seen first hand the great harm organised religions do to people.  I have seen first hand the despicable tactics and lies organised religion uses to try to impose their world view on the secular.  Thats why I have no time at all for organised religion

As regards the JWs – they have crossed that line when they bother me in my own home.  Its completely unacceptable and they were rude first by waking me up when I was sleeping for a night shift.  “an eye for an eye”  “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” ” judge not lest ye be judged”

I’m being absurd of course, but it’s with reason.

There is a line of thought amongst some people of faith which cannot accept unbelief, and it is both insidious and offensive.  Kids of Catholic parents aren’t atheists, they’re Lapsed Catholics.  “There are no atheists in foxholes.”  Bullshit.

There is an implication that faith is the default position and those who don’t believe have stayed from the flock, lost their way.  Again, this is a lie.  No-one is born believing in a god or gods, it’s given to them by their parents.  Non-belief is the default state, belief is learned behaviour.  I have no more rejected belief in god than I have rejected belief in the tooth fairy or my unicorns because there is nothing to reject.  Arguing differently is just going “yes, but you still believe just a little bit, don’t you?”

Trying to convince someone of faith they’re wrong or trying to ‘outsmart’ them is pointless and comes from ego – atheism takes a level of faith just like religious belief does. There is no evidence for or against any religion, it’s purely a matter of faith. We don’t fully understand the universe or our own brains.

This is patently incorrect. Whilst there is no objective evidence for the actual existence of an actual god (or gods), there is ample evidence to show what we are and why we’re here, and to debunk the ridiculous creeds that are spouted out.

Atheism is quite simply saying that there is no evidence of any God’s existence and that science has most of the evidence based answers we might require if we’re prepared to engage

Do you accept the possibility of my unicorns?

If you need to compile a list of things to not believe in before you can reject those beliefs, it’s amazing you find time to do anything else.

oc you don’t need to list those things, fantasy stuff, all one group. Is god in that group, yes for some.

The unicorns in your cellar? Open the door and we know they aren’t there. A god, well not in your cellar but if it could be something that exists in a space we can’t observe we can’t know. So unicorns could exist in the space where god could exist and god may be a unicorn. Which is absurd oc. But it’s not so absurd to accept there are places and spaces we can’t observe that may have influence on us, areas of our own minds for example where psychedelics or meditation might unlock them. What unlocks a mind to the presence of god, could that even happen? idk.

My uncertainty as to what atheism actually rejects is from accepting my own lack of awareness or understanding here. ‘I don’t know’ and ‘I wonder?’ suits me ok sometimes, I don’t need to ‘know’. Clearly there’s greater likelihood a god doesn’t exist as there’s no positive proof but there can be things that might be attributed to it as possible evidence. Unlikely, but not a certainty. I’d concede that’s a loose definition or vague and vagueness isn’t a tactic here, just how it is.

Could you accept that someone can’t say with certainty that something that isn’t understood or clearly defined exists or not?

The unicorns in your cellar? Open the door and we know they aren’t there.

They’re invisible, obviously.

I have no more rejected belief in god than I have rejected belief in the tooth fairy or my unicorns because there is nothing to reject. Arguing differently is just going “yes, but you still believe just a little bit, don’t you?”

Not from me anyway fwiw, I’m just drawn to convos where povs test my own ideas.

I can see how people feel joy at nature or life and feel thankful and that can become a thought of what to thank and a thought of god, which as you say is a learned concept. They may as well attribute it to unicorns. I might feel the same way with a thought of something higher but it’s not thinking of God. Or whatever it’s called, god, unicorns or the flying spaghetti monster, only society and history make one the more accepted expression of ‘the thing’ that some feel (the Tao seems closer to it, to me). I suppose it’s getting into metaphysical thoughts about where our humanity comes from – and that’s way out my intellectual depth – rather than pure logic that would say it’s an open and shut case or very simply no evidence to submit.

@oldnick – I have never heard of JW asking for money.

I just take their leaflet, say thanks and shut the door. Put the leaflet in recycling.

Where I lived in my 20’s, they always seemed to send very attractive young ladies knocking on the doors. Maybe a tactic?

There’s a lot of ex-JW’s who call it out as cult and how controlling it is.

@funkrodent I certainly wouldn’t say it takes the same level of faith, but since absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, perhaps it’s not 100% for atheism so I see it as a position that takes some faith. But logically it’s same for unicorns, granted and why it’s about a concept and cause/effect more than the name.

 there is ample evidence to show what we are and why we’re here, and to debunk the ridiculous creeds that are spouted out.

Certainly. I’m only saying there’s a lot of difference between for ex the written words like the old testament taken literally, and the concept of ‘god’ as a way to talk about influence on aspects of human nature, spiritualism or thought.

…I’m off the bike by Drs orders and 5 weeks in, this is what I’m doing on a Saturday aft : )

…I’m off the bike by Drs orders and 5 weeks in, this is what I’m doing on a Saturday aft : )

You know the Vuelta’s on?

Where I lived in my 20’s, they always seemed to send very attractive young ladies knocking on the doors. Maybe a tactic?

Well known, used to be known as ‘flirty fishing’. The C of E just don’t have the congregational resources to keep up with the evangelicals on that one.

The best way is undoubtedly to tell them politely to go away. You could try a bit of cult deprogramming, but it takes ages and usually they call when the football is on.

Jameso –

If you are really interested in this stuff as you seem to be may I suggest reading a bit of Kant?  Critique of pure reason.  Its pretty tough going and indigestible ( so maybe summaries?)   Some very interesting thoughts on morals and religion.  I found it both fascinating and compelling

Don’t know if the following story is true but I sincerely hope it is. An old work colleague of mine was looking after his neighbours house whilst they were away. Jehovah’s Witnesses knocked on his doot and he politely told them he wasn’t interested and asked them to leave. They took some persuading but he persisted.

He then proceeded to leg it through his house. Snatched up the keys to the neighbours hopped over the fence, let himself in through the back door and when the Witnesses knocked on the door he quickly pulled it open and yelled “I just bloody told you to leave me be” he said the look of befuddlement on their faces was priceless.

@funkmasterp – let’s hope so :)

@ gobuchul – it’s the only time it’s happened to me, maybe JW’s gone rogue?

Thanks TJ. I do have it here but also found it a bit hard going, taken it on bike tours twice and struggled with it but it is intriguing. It’s referenced in Zen and the Art of ..,which I re-read recently, the A Priori sense of things Vs Hume’s views, and I thought I should go back to it.

The stuff about religion and morals is good IIRC.

**** me some of you guys still wanging on about this.

You sound more fanatical than the people you’re bitching about.

There’s shit loads of stuff that I’m not in to but I don’t think I’m better or try and attack folks because they think they have found an answer to lifes problems and try and share it.

As a previous poster said.

You’re all into your standing up for other peoples wrights as long as they don’t knock on your door.

As Zamo said just say no. ;0)

Stu who’s a fanatic? It’s just a conversation. Some find this stuff interesting, sone don’t, all good.

may I suggest reading a bit of Kant?

While he does refute the traditional definitions of God (ontological, metaphysical and cosmological) he also argues that time and space are mere’intuition’ and that ultimately the true form of things are unknowable to humans. Are you suggesting that its OK to use the bits of his philosophy that you agree with and disregard bits that don’t fit your argument? [insert winking emoji here]

@Cougar, the chances of finding unicorns on some distant hitherto unexplored planet capable of supporting life is not nil, and according to the Bible, God is the creator of all the universe.

Not accusing you @jameso.

But there’s some **** up how dare they stuff and amounts of effort to try and piss people off stuff posted.

There’s shit loads of stuff that I’m not in to but I don’t think I’m better or try and attack folks

And yet, here you are.

the chances of finding unicorns on some distant hitherto unexplored planet capable of supporting life is not nil

Correct. It’s probably likely given Big Numbers, even.

and according to the Bible, God is the creator of all the universe.

According to Marvel Comics the creator of all the universe(s) is Stan Lee. What’s your point here?

I find just saying “sorry, but I’m really not interested” does the trick.

If they get any more pushy then repeating the above phrase with emphasis on the ‘really’ has always ended matters.

I know why they push a lot of people’s buttons – that smug self-assuredness grates – but it really isn’t worth going down the rabbit hole with borderline nutters.

nickc – nice debating point. :-)  Its a while back and I don’t think I managed the whole thing – just the bits pertinent to the university course I was doing

I’m an atheist but have a pretty much live and let live approach. It’s a pity a lot of folk don’t. However, I do find the very concept of religion absurd and somewhat comical. I see no difference between nerds who love LotR’s, comic books etc and the religious. Othe than the latter having actual influence en masse on world events.

Where I do get a tad annoyed is when religion or religious beliefs begins to impact the lives of others. The role back of Roe Vs Wade in the US for example. Religion has been used as a cover by some for this. On a much less serious level I had to have a word with my kids teachers because they were teaching Christianity as fact to my then six year old child. This was at a non-religious school and the excuse was that it is part of the curriculum. It has no place in schools until children are older in my opinion and it should be taught as ‘some people choose to believe X’ they should also give equal time to all religions, not just the modern major ones. I also believe it should be a choice subject. It is taking valuable time away from maths, the sciences, languages and physical education. All vastly more important and useful in my opinion.

Interesting thread, as it’s morphed from how to deal with cold callers to does God exist.  I think the second part has been done to death on here before. Much like views on dogs, smoking bans, or Keir Starmer there are two entrenched opposing groups, neither of whom are going to change their minds as a result of anything written on here.  It can still be entertaining to watch the handbag duels though!

Cheers Stu. Was wondering if I was sounding a bit ott.
I’m gonna go and do some reading.

I know why they push a lot of people’s buttons – that smug self-assuredness grates

Really ….. that annoys some people?

Obviously they feel self-assured otherwise they wouldn’t seek to share their beliefs with others. Can you imagine the conversation if they didn’t……”Good evening, have you ever wondered what message in the new testament is? I have and I can’t completely decide but I am hoping to convince you that it might be that….blah, blah”

I can’t imagine getting annoyed because some strangers have deeply held religious convictions which I don’t share. What a strange thing to get irritated about!

So long as they keep it to themselves its no issue.  Trying to convert people to their cult or use their religion to interfere in my secular life then its crossed a line that I will not accept.

JW is a dangerous cult responsible for people dying.

Jameso –

If you are really interested in this stuff as you seem to be may I suggest reading a bit of Kant?  Critique of pure reason.  Its pretty tough going and indigestible ( so maybe summaries?)   Some very interesting thoughts on morals and religion.  I found it both fascinating and compelling

Kant was arguing for or trying to understand Tao in his own independent way, but I doubt he had the ability to understand Tao in his environment (he might be able to achieve that but would be extremely tough on him if he truly wanted to understand Tao that way)

Kant’s Thing in itself, or the Tao of Königsberg

P/s: I don’t know the author but my instant reaction is Kant or Western thinking is still struggling with Tao.