How the hell do you deal with Jehovah’s

You argue that the atheist “belief” is arrogant/foolish.

I wasn’t that definite, I said the certainty of some atheists can sound that way, sometimes it’s with high certainty or emotion but poorly reasoned. It isn’t always oc. I’m probably closer to atheist than agnostic. 75/25?

Wait, what now?

Does one not intrinsically rely on the other?

Not sure I’m reading your q right but what I mean is, you could be for example a practicing Christian (as in a follower of Christ’s message, if that’s the right term) but not believe the Old Testament was true. imo that’s a valid, pragmatic view of Christianity. Or maybe you interpret the ‘father son and holy ghost’ thing as something that describes the idea, the man who shared it and the spirit he had – that was something I questioned when I was young “Because why would the vicar be talking about ghosts?” and it seemed obvious it wasn’t a literal truth but an expression of an idea. And from there I thought, ok so ‘god’ isn’t an immortal man in heaven, it’s an idea in people’s minds that comes from somewhere (and from where is a part of the credibility of all this).

Perhaps I’m ok with the vagaries because the story (bible) accuracy is questionable yet overall it has a momentum and positive importance to so many. So understanding it may be in the ability to interpret the message, not being a dogmatic fundamentalist who are the type who abuse it for power. I guess that applies to other faiths in similar ways. Get to the gist of it it not the details.

jameso

the old – “ignore the bits of your faith you do not like”  fundamentally dishonest.  The bible as allegory.  Its a method used to justify the unjustifiable

You can look at the Bible from two points of view; archeological and theological, and divide the “stories” into events that correspond to history/archeology and those that don’t. To dismiss it is to ignore its value as the best written record of iron age history that we have.

Name me one religion that does not involve coercive control.  I know of none.  Sikhism perhaps comes close as proselytising is not allowed.

I can’t, of course. Buddhism doesn’t seem to but an exception wouldn’t prove much. Coerciveness and abuse of power is a human thing – money, work, relationships all see it but aren’t founded in it. The rat race lives you and I lead is about coercive control.

Is there any religion that is founded in coercive control (and not from our perspective, from the view of those in that culture)?. One comes to mind to me straight away but I think that’s the current organisation or power structure using it, not the religion itself. There are cults that come out of religion but again, that’s people abusing power.

No time for them but am not rude.

We had them knock at a holiday cottage a mile down a dirt track once! Just commented on their commitment, said it wasn’t for me and closed the door.

Regarding the own doorstep thing me ex colleague lived on the same road as the Kingdom Hall. He repeatedly got called on to the point of going down there to ask them not to.

I should add he was a Welsh rugby player and owned a Boxer dog. Both lovely, both built like the proverbial brick out house.

One day he heard the gate, and saw a suit walking up the drive. He wound the dog up and then opened the door and shouted “See him off!”

The sight of a slobbering Boxer (look intimidating, actually daft, soft and wanting a game of chase) made this guy turn tail and vault the wall.

No more callers after that.

We had a spell of callers here. I had a few Dirt mags on the stairs, ready to say “Ah, I’m glad you’ve come, let me talk to you about what I do on a Sunday morning! Take a copy of this publication and join me in the woods”. Excuses made. By them obvs…

the old – “ignore the bits of your faith you do not like”  fundamentally dishonest.  The bible as allegory.  Its a method used to justify the unjustifiable

I didn’t say ‘ignore what you don’t like’ – that could be like, don’t sin in 6 ways but one of them I really like even though it hurts others, it’s fine..
What I was explaining was how I have respect for Christians who can be true to the message, the good stuff gist of it, and carry it out as a positive influence and not need to stick to the line that God made the earth in 6 days etc. Question the bits that aren’t credible or that undermine the carrier of the message was what I was getting at.
If the bible is an allegory to take meaning to be used for good or bad – if you use it for bad then you’re not hearing the message are you? This whole thing is more about people’s nature and maybe what I’m getting at is where does that nature come from, a nature/nurture q where nature is bigger than just the immediate environment.

Jeez I sound like I’m almost converted or something.. Ha. Maybe no more religion for me this evening. I’m way OT too.

And, really – dishonest? There’s nothing unscientific I can think of that I believe or agree with 100%. I don’t even agree with Jeff Jones on bikes 100% : )

Back to actual jehovah’s witnesses, it’s been reported that in the states the church sends people out doorstepping not to try and make conversions, because that essentially never happens any more, but that the entire point now is entirely to expose their people to angry people and to essentially tramuatise them and make them feel isolated and ostracised and push them further into the arms of the church. Anyone know if that’s the case here?

I was quite tickled to get some at my door, never had it in 40-odd years so I’d almost written it off. We did used to get the church of scotland coming round to try and save us and my mum from my evil apostate dad and bring us back to the faith, that was always quite fun.

Yes dishonest

Folk claiming to be Christian  but do not follow the teachings of their faith picking and choosing the bits that they actually want to follow.  ” I have to do this because its gods word but I do not have to do this or believe this because that bit is just an allegory”

Its either the word of god and to be followed in total or its a load of baloney

isnt that the aim of ‘religions’?  when someone is traumatised, you can convince them of an alternative traumatisation.

whereas if you face the real world, instead of some neuroses,  due to some fear, you are free of it

“Oh are you Witnesses? I work with 2 guys who are witnesses, lovely chaps”

that worked a treat and is true.

the old – “ignore the bits of your faith you do not like”  fundamentally dishonest

Have you ever wondered why most catholics, despite the church expressly forbidding the use of contraception, don’t all have 15 kids?

Its either the word of god and to be followed in total or its a load of baloney

It’s not that B+W – it’s the word of spiritual leaders and followers, over generations and interpretations. Interpretation takes motives and intelligence so we have spiritual leaders as well as coercive chancers. Bit like politics really. Right, on that note, defo off for beer time. Cheers..

the entire point now is entirely to expose their people to angry people and to essentially tramuatise them and make them feel isolated and ostracised and push them further into the arms of the church.

Sounds like cult behaviour. tbh the more I see of the general public in confined spaces the more I see their point : )

It is really – the bible is supposed to be the literal word of god.  You and I both know its a load of made up stories written a long time after the supposed events but to christians its the word of god.( or should be if they actually follow that religion)

They use the bible to say why they and us non theists should follow their rules as it is the word of god then conveniently ignore the bits they do not want to follow

I have seen this in action in the debate over assisted dying.  Supposed christians saying it goes against gods teaching but when I ask them if they follow other inconvenient bits they do not.  In this way fundamentalists are actually more honest

My late partner, who was around the house a lot more often than I was actually had a chat with a pair who pitched up one day, and rather enjoyed it, I think they came back once more. She had no interest in the actual religion, but she’d happily talk to anyone.

I haven’t seen any for ages, though, and I’d either say sorry, I’m not interested, or smile brightly and say

“ask me about my attention deficit disorder or pie or my cat. a dog. I have a bike. do you like tv? I saw a rock. hi.”

I find just being myself works.

Not Jehovah Witnesses, but the local CofE.

10:00 Sunday morning, I had just got out of bed when there was a knock at the door.

Posh lady in twinset and pearls took one look at me and said “Oh, I am sorry” and started to walk away.

Realizing I was still looking (bemused) at her she explained that she was asking if anyone would like to attend the local church and hurried away.

Just send from the friend of my partner who likes to invite them in and have a discussion.

The Jobos are no longer allowed to call on him since he deconverted one of them.

Our cat was called Jobo as she turned up and moved in when the Jobos were loose in our street hunting the credulous.

Hindu with its multiple gods does not come from the same place as Christianity.

Christianity comes from a multi god religion. In the older books of the Hebrew bible there are various references showing Yahweh moving from the head of a pantheon (equiv of Zeus or Odin) to being a standalone deity.

Holly shit there’s some long winded crap on here.

A simple no I’m not interested is all it takes .

No one gets offended and everyone gets on with their lives.

How to deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses is a topic which comes up now and again on STW. Some people find the subject of how to deal with them rather challenging.

It is often complicated by the fact that they have a low tolerance threshold towards people with different views to their own, and which they struggle to accept.

Whjy do we have to be polite to folk being rude to us?  ringing my doorbell and waking me up to try to convert me to their cult when I am on night shift as has happened to me is extremely rude.  But I am supposed to turn the other cheek?

It is often complicated by the fact that they have a low tolerance threshold towards people with different views to their own, and which they struggle to accept.

Ah.  Irony.

I had a master and his padawan on my doorstep one time.  I tried a gambit of “I’m quite happy with the religion I have, thanks.”  They asked what it was, I panicked and blurted out CofE or Roman Catholic or something.  They replied “ah yes, we find the teachings of [whatever it was I said] to be very hypocritical.”

Like, I don’t necessarily disagree, but the Catholics don’t go door-to-door rubbishing other people’s beliefs.

ringing my doorbell and waking me up to try to convert me to their cult when I am on night shift as has happened to me is extremely rude.

Switch off the bell?

Interesting how this place is the inner sanctum of virtue sometimes. And then when someone decides to ring your doorbell……

Would you be so rude if a brown person was stood there asking if you’d be interested in finding out more about Islam?

Just be bloody polite ffs, it costs nothing.

How hard is it to say ‘no thanks, I’m not interested, but have a nice day’

This place

Anyone who tries to force their religion on me gets short shrift

Its bloody rude to ring your doorbell to try to convert you so rather than being a bit new testament and turn the other cheek I prefer a bit of old testament eye for an eye

Religion is like a penis.  Its ok to have one, its great if you enjoy it.  Its not acceptable to wave it around in public and try to shove it down folks throats

This is brilliant!

https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/8hpCwGM8Gf

I’m more inclined to have a belief debate with them than my wife, i try to convert them to atheism. The wife just says “we are very happy with our faith and hope they have a nice day”.

I can’t really be rude to them as they will knock on our house door, and then go into the shop next door (which we run and is attached to our house) and buy coffee’s ?

Pagan fertility symbol

We did this a year or so ago, when we discussed Christmas origins. Easter isn’t pagan, the bunny is a German tradition. lays eggs gives them to children who’re good.

Religion is like a penis. Its ok to have one, its great if you enjoy it. Its not acceptable to wave it around in public and try to shove it down folks throats

Erm…rough night?

Of all the different means of keeping the faithful in the congregation, the JW have a particularly clever* one.

There’s only a limited number of places in the afterlife/heaven but to secure one of them, you have to prove your worth by converting others. Thereby reducing your odds of being one of the chosen. Unless of course you’re more worthy than the next soul because you converted more…

I think someone wrote a book about this scenario.

“No thanks”. Shut.

I could of course bore them with tales of what I have got up to with the 35 years of extra life granted to me by Norwegians pumping shed loads of krovvy into me after I haemorrhaged horribly during an operation over there.

Personally I have a sympathy for the Life of Brian approach to their naming.  “He said it!”

Get a Ring doorbell.  Don’t answer the door to anyone in a suit holding a clipboard or leaflets.  You don’t even need to leave the sofa.

My new beard model ;-)

This is stuck to my computer side wall. Bugs everybody.

Did you know Jesus is copyrighted by the JW’s :-)

Also, have a magnetic Pope fridge magnet stuck to the suspended ceiling.  Found it in the road.

I saved the Pope ;-)

Karol is long dead

He can’t forgive your sins now

This has been transferred to and from every PC I have ever had. The only protection Windows needs ;-)

I am going to tell you stories that may help you understand my relationship with religion and why I can distinguish between the individual and the organisation

1) I used to work for an organisation that was founded by a religious order.  They had been taken over by a secular organisation as they no longer had enough nuns to run it.  One nun remained as a client and we built a friendship.  This nun had taken a vow of poverty.   When I left the organisation she gave me a cutting from the plant on her windowsill as it was the only gift she could give me.  This was 20 years ago and I still have that plant and its one of my most treasured possessions because I know how much that meant to her and that it shows the depth of the friendship we had

2) My Julie in her final days suffered pain fear and distress.  She would have taken euthanasia had it been available.  The reason euthanasia is not available is down to almost 100% to religious organisations opposing it and using their creed to interfere in a secular life.

Religion caused Julie and I immense suffering.  I can never forgive that.  Try looking into someone you loves eyes as they suffer when both of you know the reason for her continuing to suffer is religious interference in secular life

3) I looked after a woman who was dying from cancer.  She was dying in immense psychological distress as according to her creed her suffering was gods will and she was tormented by this

I know of more folk that died in torment because of their and their families religion.  Its unutterably vile

If you want to be religious fine.  But do not use your religion to try to impose your morality on me.  Do not try to convert me.  Do not look down on me as a lessor person because I am atheist.

Nickc – sorry old chap – where do you think it came from in a German tradition?  What has the easter bunny and eggs got to do with christianity?

Its a pagan fertility symbol.  There is no doubt about that.  Same as holly and ivy at the christmas feast and same as many other bits of paganism that christianity adopted.

I have heard “christians” arguing that the egg is the stone rolled away from the door.  balderdash

If you want to be religious fine.  But do not use your religion to try to impose your morality on me.  Do not try to convert me.  Do not look down on me as a lessor person because I am atheist.

I can’t say I’m a fan of religion either

I’m not a fan of door to door sales people of any persuasion tbh

But I still manage to be courteous.

Maybe get a big sign that says no cold callers?