How the hell do you deal with Jehovah’s

I’ve had a few over the years, politely explained my situation.

Last year we had a hand written letter posted. I discussed the effort that the nicely written took and how long it’d take to write and address them to everyone in the estate (addressed to houses not me personally). The woman had nice had writing, then it went in the recycling bag under the stairs.

I remind them that it would be far more efficient if they looked after the members that they have and allowed them to have normal medical care, they would have less need to go wandering about talking to strangers. I wonder what the hit rate is for them, got to be super low..

For context, if it were needed. A guy who worked for me lost his brother due to a heart defect that his family refused treatment for as it would have required a blood transfusion. By the time he could make the choice for himself it was inoperable, he died a few years later.

I commented along the lines of how it suited him, he told me that he’d grown it out because god had appeared in a vision and told him to grow it. …

That’s a brilliant story! Despite my strong sympathies for bearded revolutionaries I have never personally cultivated facial hair.

But I am now seriously considering growing a beard just so I can inform people that God  had appeared to me in a vision and told me to grow one.

Before screaming “Allahu Akbar!”

Having a discussion with a Jehovah about how you don’t believe the stuff they believe is the doorstep equivalent of your bugbear about people posting in threads to basically express their lack of interest in the topic of the thread.

I take your point, but.

The difference is, my interest or lack thereof is actively being solicited.  I’m not wading into (say) football threads to say “I don’t like football,” rather I’m getting email notifications from a football thread inviting me to take part in the discussion and requiring me to actively unsubscribe if I don’t want to.

If you’re going to knock on my door to talk about religion then it shouldn’t come as a massive ****ing shock when I talk to you about religion.  And if it does then perhaps you should reconsider the wisdom of knocking on doors in the first place.

People do it because that person at that moment couldn’t give into the urge to be a bit of a smartarse.

And just as a homeowner is free to close the door, similarly a god canvasser is free to **** off down the garden path if the conversation isn’t going their way.  What’s the issue here?  No-one’s nailed their feet to anything in a couple of thousand years.

Isn’t that exactly what JW say apart from the atheist bit? Why is your version the right one?

It is my understanding Jehovahs believe that the bible is scientifically correct. That the entire world around them can be explained by a single text. So they may have a long list of reasons.

I am prepared to accept what i see around me and to learn and understand why and how, i am also prepared to adjust my understanding based on evidence and indeed educated guesses or further more, accept that there is not yet a feasible answer.

I don’t claim that i am right, however i can see zero evidence to support any of the bible and therefore see zero value in their opinions on the matter.

If you’re having the discussion because you’re interested in having the discussion, fair enough.

However, If you’re having the discussion just to make some sort of point, you’re just being a bit of a dick.

Not sure that’s how faith works, tj.

Whilst you’re not wrong, I don’t think that was what TJ was getting at.  Rather, you can’t in one breath state unequivocally that a god exists because Faith, and in the next demand from atheists proof that it doesn’t.

Atheism requires nothing beyond “no it isn’t.”  It really is that simple, any argument to the contrary is just desperately projecting a theist mentality onto others.

If you’re having the discussion because you’re interested in having the discussion, fair enough.

However, If you’re having the discussion just to make some sort of point, you’re just being a bit of a dick.

Does motivation matter?

How about if I’m interested in having a discussion and also want to make some sort of point?  Is that a net positive or negative on your Bitofadickometer?  Again, in case you missed it, this is why they’re here, they’re interested in having a discussion and also want to make some sort of point.

So someone opens the door, engages with them, and now suddenly they’re the bad guy for wasting the JWs’ time?  Bollocks to that line of thinking.  My pasta’s boiling over and I’m missing Only Connect to come answer the door so they already have me at a deficit when it comes to time wasted.  I’m not knocking on their door asking if they’ve heard the good news about bicycles now, am I.

No it does not – its the opposite of faith.  Faith is believing in something without evidence.  atheism is Not believing something without evidence.

What evidence do we have that there is no higher consciousness or no anything else that could be described as ‘god’? We don’t have evidence that a god can exist, yet we can’t say that it doesn’t because of a lack of evidence. Sure, god probably isn’t an old white guy living on a cloud who created the earth in 6 days. That’s just an artistic rendition to communicate to folks who couldn’t read back then. Now, that view of god is fundamentalism, like an assumption and we know what that makes .. But what is a god? Why dismiss the existence of something like that if we can’t define it? If god only exists in people’s minds as an influence, well that is something real isn’t it, because it has an effect that can be seen?

And anyway why do we assume we can know all here when really we know so little? tbh I find the certainty of some atheists sounds arrogant or foolish, not sure which. For me it’s easier to just say I don’t know. I find it more interesting to ponder than dismiss tbh. I’m agnostic on that basis and find how Carl Sagan believed in a god alongside his planet-sized mind’s understanding of the universe quite fascinating. My mind is feeble and easily blown I guess …

There’s no need to be rude. A simple “no thank you” does the job. Maybe we have non-pushy, polite JWs round my neck of the woods.

atheism takes a level of faith

I don’t follow.

By knocking on your door they have been rude.  I feel very strongly about this because I was a shift worker and have been woken up by these rude folk.  You are rude to me by knocking on my door trying to induce me into your cult?  I have ever right to be rude back

Just get a sign for for your door, for FFS.. I mean FGS : )

“atheism takes a level of faith”
I don’t follow.

Boom-tish?

What evidence do we have that there is no higher consciousness or no anything else that could be described as ‘god’?

What evidence would you require?

Why dismiss the existence of something like that if we can’t define it?

Define it, then.

Again, this Russell’s Teapot.  I have no way of knowing whether a god or gods exist.  But I have little reason to suspect that they might and on balance of probability it’s wildly unlikely.

I’m happy to concede that there may be a “god” in so far as there’s a placebo effect.  People “pray to god” and it’s the metaphysical equivalent of giving yourself a talking to, pulling your socks up, I can get behind that.  Divine sky wizards who created the universe in six days 6000 years ago, not so much.

why do we assume we can know all here when really we know so little?

Speak for yourself.  Most educated people know that we know very little.  The difference – excuse me, one difference – between science and religion is that science understands that it’s OK to not know things rather than desperately making shit up to fill in the gaps.

tbh I find the certainty of some atheists sounds arrogant or foolish, not sure which.

I’m certain beyond reasonable doubt.  I’m happy to be proven wrong.

How certain are you about the easter bunny?  Would you consider your own belief here arrogant or foolish?

Carl Sagan believed in a god

Nope, this is incorrect.  Sagan didn’t believe in a god, rather his stance was that he was waiting for conclusive proof either way.  Which, obviously, was never going to be forthcoming.

There’s a broader problem about every religion basically grounding their doctrine in the words of psychotic humans (“the demon artifice of man” as Terence McKenna noted).

whether they be Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, etc, it’s all just psychobabble from people who by any definition are severely mentally ill.

and the dogma never gets questioned or revised.

we need to cut through this endless rehashing of unchallenged crap.

So, Id propose that in the uk, undergoing an extended breakthrough DMT experience should be a fundamental prerequisite of any religious or political office. And also readily available to Joe Public too.

the technology exists for the leaders of these religions to safely experience ‘perspective’.

it just needs a legal framework.

and with medical supervision.

There are better times to discover an underlying health condition:

I have a Mezuzah on the door frame, if they see it, by the time I’m opening the door, they’re already half way back to the pavement, apologising profusely. If they don’t see it, all I have to do is point at it as soon as they ask whatever question they’re going for, and we’re done.

If you’re really lucky, they note the address, and they’ll never come again.

Now, that view of god is fundamentalism, like an assumption and we know what that makes .. But what is a god?

The problem is you are having to handwave god away to be basically meaningless and ending up with the strongest version of deism eg one who doesnt get involved in the universe. I would agree that particular variant cant be disproved but since they have zero impact on us its irrelevant.  It also makes for a pretty crap religion since the second they start telling people the rules we move to an interventionist god at which point we can start querying the claims and showing they are incorrect.

Are you really still undecided on the existence of Zeus on mount Olympus?

My dad used to send them on to convert his brother which was a horses stable up the road.

they’re already half way back to the pavement, apologising profusely.

I am surprised, I have always thought that Jehovah’s Witnesses weren’t trying to convert solely atheists, and that they were aware of God’s Jewish connection, Jesus they even call God by his Hebrew name!

Not sure that’s how faith works, tj.

Faith is belief without evidence.  Theists believe there is a god and ask us non theists to prove there isn’t a god often then use the fact we cannot prove the non existence a god to claim some sort of equivalence between the two.  ie that the belief in a god and non belief in a god are of equal logical stature

I know there is no god.  I do not have to prove the non existence of one.  The burdon of proof is on those who claim the existence and being a theist or an atheist are not equivalent logically.

What evidence do we have that there is no higher consciousness or no anything else that could be described as ‘god’?

multiple religions all with different gods with different attributes.  they cannot all be right.

pain and suffering in the world.

the total absence of any evidence ever

The disgusting behaviour off many theists

Understanding that religion is a method of coercive control of people particularly women

Basic scientific understanding

I can confidently state there is no god and have no fear of anyone ever being able to challenge this with evidence or even philosophy that has any logical coherence

How certain are you about the easter bunny?

Pagan fertility symbol

I am the same with all cold callers, i don’t answer the door. If they see me it makes no difference its my door i can open it when and whenever i want. It causes confusion when they see me just getting on with things ignoring them.

What evidence would you require?

What evidence would I require to believe in ‘god’? I don’t know. I can’t think of something that is likely to happen that could do that. But I believe in the good nature of people because I see it happen. Along similar lines I might acquire a faith because I see they way it benefits people. To do that I’d accept that there is ‘god’, not as a being perhaps but as an idea.

How certain are you about the easter bunny?  Would you consider your own belief arrogant or foolish?

It’s a good line of reasoning but I don’t see it as equivalent to the idea of ‘god’ or faith as a positive, uplifting influence on a person’s life (as opposed to the dogmatic view). Perhaps I see faith (that positive influence rather than one religion Vs another) as an expression of something naturally human like love or creativity, the source isn’t something I can be certain of. Is it from within or are we inspired? I know I feel inspired by a sunrise or a clear starry night and to some that is the ‘presence’ of god. I don’t believe that but I won’t dismiss it, if that makes sense.

This is incorrect.  Sagan didn’t believe in anything, rather his stance was that he was waiting for conclusive proof either way.

You’re correct – I found the book here and I’d been given the wrong steer on it. Been meaning to get started on it for ages. Still, interesting that he didn’t think he had all the understanding needed to say there was no god.

The difference – excuse me, one difference – between science and religion is that science understands that it’s OK to not know things rather than desperately make shit up to fill in the gaps.

I know a couple of people who are Christian and active/practicing yet they really don’t make up things to fill gaps, they’re intelligent professional people, pragmatic about it all and can be critical of any focus on religious detail. I suppose they made me realise you can have faith without believing all of it, it doesn’t need to be a purity thing and for some of them questioning aspects of it is encouraged. That’s what made me more interested in it. Yet it hasn’t changed my beliefs either – certain beyond reasonable doubt but open to being proved wrong (and not expecting that to happen anytime..). It’s just made me more respecting of and open to how they think. And tbh, it’s just an interesting topic.

My dad used to send them on to convert his brother which was a horses stable up the road.

Sent them on a foal’s errand?

The disgusting behaviour off many theists

To be fair here, they hardly have the monopoly.  There’s plenty of atheist shitbags also.

Who said religion provided a positive and uplifting influence?

A lot of innocent people die every year due to someone else’s superior religion. A lot have been abused, tortured, raped, beheaded etc.

It’s all bollocks to control people.

Western religion is currently oil and the S&P500. Go figure

It’s a good line of reasoning but I don’t see it as equivalent to the idea of ‘god’ or faith as a positive, uplifting influence on a person’s life (as opposed to the dogmatic view).

Don’t you like chocolate?

You argue that the atheist “belief” is arrogant/foolish.  Yet I’ll wager you reject beliefs yourself all the time.  If not the easter bunny then father christmas, the tooth fairies, zombies, Dangermouse…

Love and sunrises can exist perfectly well without requiring “god did it,” the addition of religion changes nothing.

I know a couple of people who are Christian and active/practicing yet they really don’t make up things to fill gaps

Only in so far as things have already been made up for them I suppose.

you can have faith without believing all of it,

Wait, what now?

Does one not intrinsically rely on the other?

multiple religions all with different gods with different attributes.  they cannot all be right.

Two thoughts on that, the second is not mine and I’m sure the first isn’t new either – 1st is they’re all interpretations of the same human wonder or energy if you like, influenced by culture and the time they were established, they vary but go back to the source and they may well be close to the same? 2nd is that we can only say ‘Faith A can’t be right as well as Faith B’ as a way to back up scepticism from a position that is Faith C, the faith of doubt. Doubt is a faith since we don’t have actual proof either way. They can’t all be right, one can’t be right over the others. That includes Faith C. So either you take faith in one or no certainty in any of them is possible for you – yet that doesn’t dismiss the possibility of ‘a god’.

Your other points have been addressed by theologists, I’m not taking a side apart from seeing how none of them dismiss the possibility of the existence of a god. e.g. ‘how can there be a god when there is pain and inhumanity in the world’ – without knowing pain there is no joy. Pain in the world is not evidence that there is no god, it’s simply the human condition or consciousness.

Or the disgusting behaviour off many theists, coerciveness etc – people twist anything to their own ends. I don’t see them as theists, just people abusing a source of power. A true theist or follower wouldn’t act like that. Trump is not a true Christian but it suits him to talk about god and Christianity.

It’s a recruitment drive, nothing less.

Is part of it not to reinforce the cult to those already there as opposed to converting noobs? Look at the outside world and all the rejection you get from knocking on Joe public’s door, the cult welcomes you in with open arms…

Doubt is a faith since we don’t have actual proof either way.

I have no doubt.  I know there is no god

Your argument there is just as I said – giving equivalence to faith and non faith.

Faith is belief without evidence.

Science is belief with evidence

Ther two are not equivalent

1st is they’re all interpretations of the same human wonder or energy if you like, influenced by culture and the time they were established, they vary but go back to the source and they may well be close to the same?

This is already well understood.  Much of Abrahamic religions can be traced back to Pagan and similar beliefs and traditions.

a position that is Faith C, the faith of doubt.

At the risk of repeating myself, doubt does not require faith.  The notion that I don’t have a unicorn infestation in my cellar is not dependent on a belief system.

I just politely tell them I’m not interested, quite simple. I’m not religious but respect peoples belief. My son once answered the door to them stark naked, not seen any for years now.

i live next door to a family/couple. They told me what they are, but never mentioned any more.

they must have realized it wouldnt interest me, although i do feel guilty sometimes about not teaching them some common sense and allowing them to carry on believing bullsxxx

they vary but go back to the source and they may well be close to the same?

Nope.

Hindu with its multiple gods does not come from the same place as Christianity.  Similarly animism has a different root etc etc

Judaism split into multiple religions yes – so Christianity of all sorts shares roots with judasim.  there are an awful lot more religions than christianity and its various sects

Religion only exists to control populations

Love and sunrises can exist perfectly well without requiring “god did it,” the addition of religion changes nothing.

As Douglas Adams famously said: “Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too”?

Much of Abrahamic religions can be traced back to Pagan and similar beliefs and traditions.

Its not the roots tho – its stuff they co opted along the way.

Or the disgusting behaviour off many theists, coerciveness etc – people twist anything to their own ends. I don’t see them as theists, just people abusing a source of power. A true theist or follower wouldn’t act like that.

Name me one religion that does not involve coercive control.  I know of none.  Sikhism perhaps comes close as proselytising is not allowed.

I struck up a friendship with a next door Plymouth Brethren family when working on a site once, well the grandad actually. I found them quite fascinating.

And I once paired up and worked on site with a Seventh Day Adventist carpenter, he was fascinating too – a massive great big scary West Indian geezer with the biggest hands I have ever seen which looked like they were made out of shoe leather.

He was deeply religious and instead of throwing a few fux around, and the liberal use of the C word, as you do when you are working, the word he would use in their place was “nasty”

Print out one of these

https://www.nhsbt.nhs.uk/how-you-can-help/get-involved/download-digital-materials/blood-donation-graphics/

Stick it in the window.

Job done.

Failing that I’d dig a moat.