How much more effecient are SPD's compared to flats?

IF we're talking efficiency, surely the choice of shoes is more important than the actual pedal?

SPD's. You cant pull up with flats. I cant see how this is questionable.

Never mind the control / being attached advanatages.

I use SPD's I like my feet not slipping off and I can cheat on the bunny hops and jumps. I can bail just as easily too. Got no idea if it's more efficient but I like em.

I went over to flat pedals about 3 weeks ago after 40 plus years of being firmly attached to my pedals.

Surprisingly, after the initial floundering about, I don't notice a lot of difference, either good or bad.

Riding with gears, I find re-starting up a really steep slope easier because I can just concentrate on stomping the pedal, rather than faffing with clipping in.

Riding singlespeed, I can just move my foot forward on the pedal, postman style, to get up a really sharp slope.

Down fast bumpy stuff, because I am concentrating on staying planted I seem to have more control and connection with the bike.

It's just the fast riding across stuttery ground where you need to keep pedalling over the roots and bumps that is getting me at the moment, that's when my feet go light and leave the pedals.

And I got through an all dayer in the lakes (geared) last Friday followed by 3 2-hour sessions over Cannock Chase (singlespeed) this week without a single twinge from my left ankle. Which is why I swapped to flats in the first place.

Still clips n straps on the fixed commuter though.

Very few people pull on the upstroke when pedalling, it's mostly a very short up scoop to help get past the dead spot (which you could do fine on flats) followed by an unweighting of the lifting leg. There was a study on pedalling involving some roadie pros a couple of years back and it was surprising how few watts they were generating on the upstroke. Sprinting is probably the big exception. That said I wear SPDs :p

http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse

Macavity – Member

http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse

I started reading this then abruptly stopped when the guy started talking about WEARING SANDALS AND SOCKS – he is obviously a wrongun

With efficiency being a ratio of output/input they are both exactly as efficient as each other. If you start pulling up on the pedals with spds then you are putting more in so will obviously get more out.

Like where you're going, but have to interject – your pully-uppy muscles are not as efficient (they don't translate input energy to output force as well as your pushy-downy muscles) so overall your efficiency drops, but your power output increases. However, as we are more like lots of little batteries (muscles with stores of fuels) the ability to occasionally change muscle groups to a rested one for a bit (short uphill sprint, share the load between 2 groups instead of 1) means you can recover from that hill quicker and keep going longer. IMO.

I find myself in a pickle with this. I've been riding a combo of the two on different bikes for a few months now. As with Aiden (think I spelled it right) – over really rough stuff I find the spds easier to control the bike – I don't bounce off pedals, I have more fine control and if I get stuck in a pedal/wheel positition/root/rock that means I don't normally have enough power to get over it with just one foots worth of torque, I can bring in the pull-up to help out.

But, I can't jump for toffee on spds because it encourages bad technique for me.

I also find I struggle to "go light" over rock gardens on flats.

not sure about efficiency as i cant be arsed to work it out.

but i can confirm than on an mtb… flats are 89% better than clips.

the push muscle in your leg has to be able to lift your entire body mass, the pull one only needs to lift one leg, so the strength ratio is likely to be ~ 8:1 unless you do a LOT of work developing the puller…

the strength ratio is likely to be ~ 8:1 unless you do a LOT of work developing the puller…

Yep, but it is additive, as we discussed in the thread the other week. Bear in mind that each leg is near 1/4 of your body weight and that the muscle used to bring your thigh up to your chest (also used to pull up on pedals) is the same one used to let you sit upright (lifting half your body weight with ease on a regular basis) and there's a few other complicating factors in there. Oh, and of course if you actually use it regularly they get stronger 😀

Oh, and of course if you actually use it regularly they get stronger

yeah, but I also suggested the limit isn't muscular strength but the rate at which your body can supply them with oxygen and glucose (apart from sprinting)

Hamstrings and quads are about the same strength. You all appear to be forgetting about eccentric muscle work….

yeah, but I also suggested the limit isn't muscular strength but the rate at which your body can supply them with oxygen and glucose (apart from sprinting)

Yes, but we rarely operate at our absolute maximum throughout the whole ride – thats what I'm saying, if it was in use 100% of the time as "normal" operation then it would be less effective, but as it can be used in bursts it can either increase your power output for medium terms or or increase your duration by sharing load at times. MTBing, IME, is rarely about sitting at your cardio max all the time, it;s usually a mix, and when not at your cardio max you can use your muscles and their own little gyco stores to help out.

Of course I don't know the exact details of how it works, thats not my job, but I know it does work and I notice a big difference in performance on the same trail from one day to the next when swapping pedals.

Hamstrings and quads are about the same strength. You all appear to be forgetting about eccentric muscle work….

Without more thought into the matter, I don't think they have to be equal strength even considering eccentric work – my triceps are not even close to my bicep strength.

Why am I even reading this?

Maybe the only way to settle this is in an experiment. Some one do a loop in spds and a loop in flats. See if you're faster on spds.

CK – you dont walk on you arms though do you.

Much more efficient when you need to bunnyhop

I prefer SPDs cos it keeps my feet attached to the pedals on the rough stuff.

And I can't tie my laces so the velcro is ideal 😆

In my opinion it works like this..those who ride flats hate spds because they are pants when the use em.
Those who ride spds hate flats because they are pants when the use them.
those who can use both competently dont seem to care what you use.

Probably true that. I'm too scared to DH clipped in, and kept falling off on slow techy climbs 😮
I would love to see a comparison of a thin, flat pedal, with sticky thin soles, vs some SPDs with SPD shoes. I think they would be much closer in efficiency than they used to be.

You all appear to be forgetting about eccentric muscle work….

how can I forget something you just invented ?

and when not at your cardio max you can use your muscles and their own little gyco stores to help out.

that soon gets used up

Maybe the only way to settle this is in an experiment. Some one do a loop in spds and a loop in flats. See if you're faster on spds.

it's impossible to do a blind test and expectations interfere…

Much more efficient when you need to bunnyhop

the people who bunnyhop over large objects use flats. I can do it too 🙂

No ones mentioned this but I find SPD are much better for standing up on a full suspension bikes.

I've been ridding swinley on both flats and spd recently and there are lots of (very) short sharp climbs. If I try to sprint up a hill standing up, on a full suspension bike with flats, the bike feels very mushy and alot of power is lost to the suspension.

I dont notice this effect so much when wearing spd's because you can balance the downstroke on one leg with the upstroke on the other leg leading to less pedal bob.

I like both SPD's and Flats but in my opinion flats are a definite no-no on cross country full suspension bikes.

those who can use both competently dont seem to care what you use.

I can and do ride both.

rarely ride clipped in now as on balance I prefer flats.

At least you can wear normal bloody shoes

At least you can wear normal bloody shoes

thats one of several reasons for running flats on all my bikes.

If I try to sprint up a hill standing up

I would never try that 🙂

but in my opinion flats are a definite no-no on cross country full suspension bikes

I rode that way for 10 years…

Flats all the way for me.

If the xx% more efficient, then presumbaly i'm xx% fitter than all my riding budies on SPDs?? either that or they just aren't trying!

having seen someone fall off last week at 2mph and get a spiral fracture of the upper arm due to brand new cleats (which I'd seen him adjust at least 3 times) not releasing I'm dubious of the advantages of spuds!

SPDs are a lot like Computers, Wii, Playstation, Txt'ing etc.

Old people just don't get it.

Old people just don't get it.

I just got my secretary to type this for me…

mmm your legs go in a 360 motion.

With flats you can only work half of that.

Even with the dead spot, it would be easy to see how SPD work more efficiently.

I started this game 21/2 years ago and at this point I hadnt ridden a bike for 15 years. I went straight to SPDs after one ride when I slipped off the pedal and hurt myself on the chainring.

I really fancy trying flats (too many hilarious slow speed topples- and landing on my bum still attatched to the bike)

Will I have to learn all over again? I am just getting the confidence to do little jumps; I dont want to loose it 🙂

mmm your legs go in a 360 motion.

With flats you can only work half of that.

Even with the dead spot, it would be easy to see how SPD work more efficiently.

So you just do more work with SPDs (because you're pushing/pulling the entire 360 degrees)? That isn't the same thing as being more efficient – that's just doing more work.

mmm your legs go in a 360 motion.
With flats you can only work half of that.

but to make up for that, most of us have two 🙂

Horses for courses, innit!

SPDs undoubtedly allow me (Stress the "ME" there!) to transfer more power more efficiantly from the pedals. Fact. End of. I do pull up quite hard, to the point where I've been known to pull out of a pedal when going uphill hard. So therefore I'm clearly using them to their best advantage, and in general I have a smooth, circular pedalling motion (Rather than just stomping on the pedals and bobbing all around the place.

But

A LOT of the advantage comes from the stiffer soled shoes. I always used to use a basic trail shoe, until I used a basic racy-type shoe for the Trans Wales. There's a noticeable lack of flex and improvement in power transfer. It's not massive but it is there.

So

When I wanted to try some new technical stuff locally, I took the SPDs off my bike and fitted flats (I can use both with ease) and rode up there. The first decent hill I came to I had to push up, when I normally ride up easily (There's nowt round here I can't clean) Why? Because I was on my SINGLESPEED and I just couldn't get quite enough power down with softer shoes on.

Therefore

I conclude the PEDALS are no different. A bit of metal and a bearing, whichever way you look at it. It's just the way I USE THEM that's more or less efficiant. i.e. I can pull up and use stiffer shoes on SPDs, I wear softer shoes on flats and can't pull up.

That's it.
🙂

I'm clearly using them to their best advantage, and in general I have a smooth, circular pedalling motion

Poddy has better pedalling technique than you do, and all you haters can suck his balls. 🙂 😉

I wear softer shoes on flats and can't pull up

I'm not even keen on the pushing down part 🙁

Poddy has better pedalling technique than you do, and all you haters can suck his balls

Not what I said, or meant. But thanks for the compliment! 😀