How do you navigate in the hills?

iPhone with OS map on it (Outdoor Active app currently). Although I tend to navigate manually rather than follow a route. Certainly never follow an automatically-generated route. IME, modern phones don’t “fail” so I am happy to rely on it. Besides, I wouldn’t be anywhere remote on my own, and I am happy that the chances of two iPhones “failing” at the same time is essentially zero.

I use my phone with OS map and Garmin 830. If I’m somewhere I don’t know that well, will also have a paper map and compass.

I always carry an OS map and Compass, but can’t recall the last time it ever got unfolded. Just use OS Maps on my iPhone.

In theory I could navigate properly at some point (Summer and Winter ML), but that was a long time ago (pre hand held GPS).

On a bike, Garmin. On foot, map and compass (with gps backup for when I “can’t get the map to agree” with the ground).

these sorts of threads are really about: How organised are you? and how well are you at assessing the risk?

Good point. I suppose I’ve got some thresholds that I’d struggle to quantify. I’d only follow a route from a Garmin etc (turn left in 200m or you are off route) on faster moving events. A bike or maybe a run. Never a walk. I’d never follow a route generated by automation, It’s always be one I’d plotted myself. My follow a route on a device threshold is probably when it goes from xc blast for an hour or 3 to day trail riding trip with a bike. That’s also probably the point when I go from I carry what I can fit in my pockets roadie style to a bag. And in the bag might go the sort of stuff I’d carry for a day in the hills walking – ie I’ve gone from worst case a long walk home to a bit more self sufficient. It’s probably the point at which a bit of first aid comes with me too. There’s probably a bit of a black spot in my thinking there as a 3 HR circular ride here could easily find me somewhere no one will go for days and a long way from help.

I currently carry my Spot GPS with me on pretty much every trip. It’s expensive and overkill but as I own it I take it. I might well be downgrading to paying monthly and only activating on for big trips. I’m struggling with this decision as I do lots of stuff on my own and it’s not just the long super remote stuff where I might need it. Arguably at the middle of those 3hr xc style rides with little kit on me I’m at my most vulnerable.

All the above I agree with – todays technology is wonderful, paper backup and proper compass still a Good Thing the further you are from simple landscape and people.

BUT

The one thing rarely mentioned is the emergency. The hours of cold, wet waiting, making calls or using data / screen on time. Batteries die. Devices drown.

For me there is a strength in having two totally different technologies / resources in my bag and skill set. And if there is one thing I know from all the years in the hills, is that no-one expects the sh*t to go down, and we are often left wanting when the sh*t overwhelms us in an incident…

The one thing rarely mentioned is the emergency.

Completely different thread subject anyway, but I’d hope everyone going to remote places takes a decent jacket/emergency blanket/some food and a means of summoning help as a minimum!

 I suppose I’ve got some thresholds that I’d struggle to quantify.

I completely agree with that sentiment , I think we probs all have those, and it’s knowing that point for you at which it becomes sensible to have redundancy if it all goes to shit. I’m realistic enough to know that could happen anywhere, but its extremely unlikely, given my experience.  I’m happy with automated routes from some places, given that I know how they generate them, but if I do that, I always have an alternate plan if it doesn’t work.

@convert I used to carry my Spot for those 3-4 hour XC rides too. The risks are obviously greater in Winter, with darkness, cold, the (im)probability of someone passing by etc. At some point, I just stopped doing so. Maybe I was getting more familiar with my new surrounding, but more often riding with pals, the increasing subscription cost and the increased availability of 4G all played a part too. I guess I’ve also been doing more running in winter (especially since getting studded shoes) so the amount of time I’ve felt at risk has significantly decreased. Your post has given me pause for thought though, thinking I might reconsider the value of a subscription of some sort. I might need to dig out a calculator and compare my Spot vs an Inreach.

As regards generated routes, I regard those in the same way as a gpx file I’ve downloaded or been given. I’d never set out to follow it without analyzing it on a map first. Only that way can I consider possible obstacles, inclines, surface types etc. I’m always a little dismayed when I see folk asking for a gpx file for what appears to me to be a simple route as I think it’s further cementing that lack of map reading knowledge and skill.

I had an interesting experience with OS maps on my phone. We were out for a walk in the Lakes, in an area I was very familiar with. The phone app persistantly showed us up to 1Km away from where we were. It put me of using a phone for any sort of critical navigation. Normally I use a mixture of a real map, GPS with OS maps and a Garmin 840 for some gravel rides.

The down side of paper maps are that we have a large collection some of which are quite old. The old map are missing some useful information particularly as new cycling routes. I would probably never just use somebody elses gpx file. I like to plot the routes first and then down load to other devices.

I rarely do any sort of outdoor activity without a paper map and compass.

Paper map if I do not know where I want to go or want to explore an area this is mainly running.

Watch/gps if I am doing a set specific route with a map as back up, this is mainly biking.

I did the dragons back a few years ago and started with using watch/gps but eventually turned to using map/compass as I preferred the longer sight line of what is coming up, the context around where you are and to be more fully immersed in the endeavour as I found just watching a dot move across a line was pretty boring.

My background was doing lots of navigation events so its always just been my preference to fondle maps

I have an personal locator beacon for seakayaking and you are now allowed to use them in the UK on land. When you activate it is sends a signal to a satalite and transmits your location. If I am out in Scotland in remote areas I put this in my pack. I have never had to use it, it’s subscription free and you just need to replace the batteries every 7 years?

+ 1 on thinking about managing risk and what if scenarios.
+1 on I can never follow a route without looking ‘big picture’ as to where it goes. In old navigation this is journey storying, landscape layout, waymarkers and handrailing etc
+1 on I would struggle to express some of of my thresholds. I’m often find myself being the one who carries the bag of a waterproof and emergency gear, even on some less obvious places (took it on Aran Islands last week in Ireland…) yet will daunder up the Ochils in an evening with nowt but the clothes I’m stood in…

The phone app persistantly showed us up to 1Km away from where we were.

How could that happen?

I have worked with GPS for around 30 years and I have never seen that?

I am a bit of a GPS geek and have about 6 different units.

As long as they have a clear view of the sky, they only need 3 satellites to get a 2d fix, 4 for 3d.

Just had a look on my phone and there are 12 US above me now and a total of about 40 with the systems.

@bruce what plb? I looked a while ago and they were all subscription and never quite justify it for the amount of use it would get.

For biking various apps on my phone with map as back up.

For walking map with phone as back up .

Relatively new to canoeing so either no real navigation required òr go with a much more experienced person

I don`t think you can beat the Garmin Edge range when riding new routes or in the hills.

Never once have I felt in the slightest lost whilst in the hills local, or when riding abroad. Im surprised everyone here isnt the same or similar. It seems a million years ago that a person would need to take paper maps etc.

The mobile phone is another good option, but not as robust as a Garmin Edge of course.

@ajf

I use a McMurdo Fast Find.

https://www.marinesuperstore.com/safety-beacons/plb-ais/mcmurdo-fastfind-220-gps-plb

There are other options like the Rescue Me PLB1

https://www.marinesuperstore.com/safety-beacons/plb-ais/ocean-signal-rescueme-plb1-with-gps-plb

You have to register the device with the Coastguard.

@gobuchul

I don’t know how it happened but it did we were in woods between Grassmere and Rydal. the phone was showing us near the carpark in Grassmere, as we walked to the caves near Rydal our position didn’t change. My Garmin GPS 62 shown us in the correct place.

Phone fault? OS maps bug?

Sounds like a weak signal from the tree cover.

The Garmin probably had a better antenna.

Were you going in and out of the app on the phone? Probably a bit of a “cold start” problem?

Was it an older iPhone? More recent chipsets are much quicker at establishing an initial position.

I have an old Magellan handheld from about 1998 and it takes about 5 minutes to get it’s 1st fix from cold.

will daunder up the Ochils in an evening with nowt but the clothes I’m stood in

Thats a whole new thread! I have done the same myself hundreds of times. I hate carrying anything if the truth be told and if I do then I use a waist pack. In my younger days I would have thought nothing of running for a few hours in just fells shoes, shorts and vest. Never done it in areas that I didnt know well and always took the precaution of informing of my route, times etc but I was very fit then. I understand the risks but I do think there is sometimes what I call an “overgotexification” of the hills and this puts lots of people off exploring and building the experience and self reliance that is key to being independent in the outdoors. If you dont have £00’s worth of gear then “its not for the likes of you” I used to go camping as a teenager and we simply explored and had fun, probably helped by the fact that most of my mates were distance runners so had a high degree of fitness. I do think a lot of kids feel intimidated by the hills, that was never my perception.

Samsung s10e.

I have had problems with Google maps as well so it might be a phone problem.

I understand the risks but I do think there is sometimes what I call an “overgotexification” of the hills and this puts lots of people off exploring

Yep, recognised myself doing this very thing to a group of teenagers who asked me if I had any spare food/water a few weeks back. I was about to give them some ‘advice’ about coming out prepared, but then I remembered the first trip I did that got me hooked on MTB, and how I was very nearly heat-stroked, and I just gave them my emergency mars bars, and half my water and pointed them in the right direction for the café that they were looking for.

I’ll alway want to see the route on (electronic) map before setting off to follow it. Whether thats a downloaded route, or if its simple I won’t have a recorded line, just remember the basic directions. A day out in the lakes or peak on legal ROW at least can probably be summed up in about 20 directions/turns.

For a simple route, I’ll have the “map” including basic topography, rivers, wooded/open memorised.

For a longer more complex route, I’ll know the basics of it but certainly not enough to do it from memory.

When I look at my phone or other navigation device, its primary purpose for me is to tell me where I am and how far along the route I am. More important when biking as speed varies so much. Therefore the phone with its blue dot is ideal, gives me the info I require in seconds, no taking bearings or timing your pace or anything.

If I know in my head that I need to cross the bridge, climb halfway up the hill, then turn right – I can see I’m on the right track, and I’m 3/4 of the way to the turning.

I always carry a map and compass, even on walks I have done before, but mostly use Memory Map on my phone although I just  every now and again rather than constantly checking. I was given MM 1:25000 for the whole UK as a present and downloaded the whole dataset onto the phone so it doesn’t rely on a mobile signal, just GPS. I like to use maps before a walk as I find it much easier to orient myself and work out a route on paper.

Maps.  The idea of following somebody else’s route and losing a whole dimension is not appealing. Usually now I will have a printout to hand with the full sheet as backup.  GPX files are for recording your wanderings not predetermining them.  Orienteering background, so map memory skills are pretty sharp.

“overgotexification”

Ooh, nice new compound word.
McDonaldsification of outdoor adventures is another of my used phrases.

Garmin and Outdoor Active on my iphone as back-up.

I’m rarely far off the beaten track though.

I always have an idea of what my escape route would be.

Planning on doing some further afield riding next year, not sure what my plan for that will be.

Rainy phone screen on a half-loaded google maps with 8% battery left; that either crashes when I try and zoom in, or the raindrops make my phone accidentally call people from work.

Eventually, watching a downloaded video from a hiking vlogger in roughly the same region from 2021 and desperately seeing if I recognise anything.

And after that, pure guesswork based on vibes and which way the lichen is growing, I think I learned that in a bushcraft class at a music festival once.

Rainy phone screen on a half-loaded google maps with 8% battery left; that either crashes when I try and zoom in

buy a phone that’s not shit, and some off-line mapping software (and learn how to use it!) would be the best advice, I think 😉

Paper maps are ace but a bit of a faff to open/close/use.

On the bike I tend to use a garmin with a phone with osmaps. If it was a really big day out or I think I’d need to do rerouting I might take a paper map in my bag

On foot I tend to use a paper map in a map case, just because it’s nice. But I often have a garmin attached to my bag and running as a back up, with my phone with osmaps just in case

I get far more appreciation of where I am with a paper map, but on the bike I’m generally just cracking on so digital versions are easier and quicker

Scale and size of the hills and what you plan to do adds a heck of a lot of context to this, and how much local knowledge you have – like most people there are plenty of places in the hills where I know the geography well enough that nothing is required.

There are places the only thing I need is a climbing guidebook all the way up to needing a 50,000 map – I love the certainty of electronic devices, especially in big woody hillseides, but sometimes the context from a paper map is invaluable

Map & compass with a foretrex as a check nav. I’d be sad if/when it dies, many memories connected to that little toy.

I mostly just like to keep in touch with an old but fundamental skill. Good to know I could still find my arse in a hill if guccier tech shits the bed.

That and I can’t justify the expense of fancier devices for the frequency I need it.

OS maps give me genuine joy to use and I have 70+ Explorer and around half that number of Landrangers. Any planning for UK based holiday I take starts by spreading the map out and looking for likely points of interest (and planning days out) – picnic spots, walks, nature reserves, viewpoints, driving detours, potential beaches. I’d much rather do that than just putting “top 10 things to do in Pembrokeshire” into Google.

Walking I’m exclusively map and compass (with a basic grid reference app as a backup if/when I get lost). Provides so much more context to where you are/where you’ve been/where you’re going.

On a bike it’s trickier, the speed you’re going at means stopping every few minutes to pull out a map isn’t ideal (and I’ve never worked out a good way of setting up a map in the cockpit or having it otherwise readily accessible). Can you get OS Explorer maps on any GPS devices these days or does it have to be a phone? I’ve never bothered with a subscription, it never appealed that much, but with the right setup it might be best. Road cycling of course you have plenty of GPS options

How could that happen?

I have worked with GPS for around 30 years and I have never seen that?

I am a bit of a GPS geek and have about 6 different units.

Given they still had selective availability switched on 30 years ago, you would have always seen a consistent error in the location every time you used it up until May 2000.

As for how it could happen, phone got confused and needed a reboot, someone carrying a portable GPS jammer / spoofer, accidental jamming from military exercise.

GPS is very fragile (compared to modern systems which can be jammed, but not spoofed).

For walking map and compass. I enjoy using them and the large area view the give. Having said that in wild conditions I have resorted to OS App though using it continuously with GPS on savages the battery. In country with few landmarks and paths I will often upload a GPX to my bike computer as a backup and it has come in handy. Battery life far superior to an iPhone with GPS on and leaves the phone for more important eventualities.

On the bike – bike computer.

I have resorted to OS App though using it continuously with GPS on savages the battery.

I stick my phone on flight mode and just use the OS App as and when needed and find it pretty light on battery use. I normally drain far more taking dozens of photos.

Iphone with OS App, double map and compass when I’m guiding.  I find the app doesn’t help with tricky nav (which way to take a group off a ridge in the clag) so I still use map and compass a surprising amount.

I have had problems with Google maps as well so it might be a phone problem.

Some androids had an issue defaulting to the less accurate location (based of wifi etc).

Cant remember the exact details as several years back  but I had a similar massive inaccuracy on it and after some googling found a setting to switch.