How do you navigate in the hills?

I have a lot of experience navigating in the hills and although we all get a bit geographically challenged on occasion I like to think I am pretty competent and although never competitive on the fells I have raced a bit on them over the last 40+ years of running, also done an OMM and attended FRA navigation courses. I always carry a map and compass but find I seldom use them and almost solely use the OS app on my phone (carry a backup battery on longer days)

Who still uses maps as their primary nav tool?

Similar to you, but also for relating the screen to a larger area

Maps are nice when sat at home or in the pub but pretty much obsolete on the hills.

I use a phone or sometimes preplan a route and put it on my watch.

Watch and phone (and maybe a powerbank) is enough redundancy for me to not bother with a paper map anymore.

Fenix 7 and an iPhone 12 mini.

If doing very remote stuff, I’d take something like a eTrex for backup and possibly an inReach mini, too.

Only use maps. I enjoy using them, using the various basic skills

Madame likes the phone but not on hill walks. Great for forest dog walks though

I almost exclusively use maps, I just prefer them.

Had a (failed) Bob Graham attempt last month. My friend had a GPS and it was a lot quicker so made sense for racing, just follow his watch, turn here, then turn here etc etc,  no thinking. Until we decided to bail out and had to work out the best was down to a road, then my map came out and was brilliant for seeing a context of where we were, what options were available to us, in a way that would have been impossible just following his pre-programed arrow.

The GPS was good for it’s purpose but I’m still sticking with maps.

Only use maps. I enjoy using them, using the various basic skills

Fair point and I suppose we should all use them solely, from time to time as a refresher.

I don’t bother carrying a map, not since I got my Garmin 820 (about 10 years ago) with pre-loaded OS maps.

Recently I also downloaded the OS App for my phone, works great and you can select & download areas for use when there’s likely to be no signal.

Worked great at the weekend for a near 200 mile bikepacking route in the Highlands, plus able to see alternatives.

Carry a powerbank too.

Paper maps and compass. With OS Locate app in case I get a bit doubtful in mist.

Can’t remember the last time I took a paper map into the hills, and TBH given where I mostly ride, it’s not remote enough that I couldn’t just work out using Garmin/apps/knowledge where I am and in which direction I’d need to go.

Something I realize with experience is how little I’m actually looking at a map on a typical decent weather day out. A lot of the route info and topography is taken in and roughly memorized.

If the plan for the day changes then I’ll get the map out to quickly reevaluate distance and altitude gains.

A real advantage for me is not having to put my specs on when reading my screen. I can quickly check my position and zoom in if necessary, my sight is good enough to do this but not to read my map. I find orienting the map each time then locating my position on it takes a bit of time and i need to find my specs and put them away, cleaning them when they get wet etc.

I use print outs from a hacked Memory Map app, which allows me to print A3 of the area I am in.

I got a Foretrex 601 last year and It’s great.

Default is OS map app on my phone. But I still carry a map (even if its just an A4 or A3 laminated printout) in all but the short simple still stuff. I do a lot of gold DofE training and assessing and we still expect kids to be able to use an actual map and compass.

My thoughts:-

Actual maps are way better when you need to redesign the trip in the field. Being able to see beyond what you can see on the screen makes a big difference when looking at options and feasibility.

Where I find maps on phones are a bit rubbish is in very cold or wet weather. Having to take your winter gloves off when the wind chill is minus 30 is properly brutal. Once the phone and your hands are wet and finger prints stop opening the phone (and facial recognition stops working because you look like a yeti). And the screen is not very responsive because everything is wet. You can turn the lock off but then my phone at least has a mardy because all the pay features don’t like it and want disabling. And the battery life is much reduced because it’s so cold.

You really need to practise- it’s so easy to de-skill yourself. I realised I was guilty of stopping a group and asking them to tell me where they were…..and I’d get my phone out and double check! It’s actually quite fun to have a day where you put all the tech away and do a bit of micro nav, pacing using your old sliders on your compass string or pebbles in your hand. Fixing a position using bearings etc. The tech is awesome and it’s my go to but I know I have the old school skills still if needed. I do wonder if there is a generation who had it from the start of their time in the hills and if the tech failed on them (dropping your phone or it bricking or running out of power is a thing- or just user error where you fail to download the map before setting off and find yourself without signal) might not have what it takes to sort themselves out.

I have always used a map and compass, until about 9 months ago and I started using the OS app on my phone, it took a while and now its just easier.

I always carry a map and compass wherever I go as I have used them a few times on some of the walks when the weather and conditions have been poor.  The map and compass just reassure me.

usually plan a route on os map and download hardcopy, which work without a signal, i hate it when my friends use garmin, as we are forever taking the wrong track

Breadcrumbs are my backup. Maps.Me is what I use on my phone. I can use a map if necessary. If in doubt follow the people in front of you!? Winky eye..

Actual maps are way better when you need to redesign the trip in the field.

I’d disagree with that assessment, my Garmin will make a better fist of rerouting – either by shortest, or by road than I ever could  if it came to it if I’m cold or turned around in an area I don’t know. The only advantage maps have is the lack of battery they need to operate, it’s a significant advantage in some circumstances, but good planning and back up makes them all but redundant unless in extremis.

A combination of

Garmin 530 with talkytoaster maps

Alpinequest app on phone with pre-loaded maps for wherever I am. OS if possible in the UK, or if not, then Open source cycle/hike map.

If I’m somewhere remote then I’ll take a spare power bank for my phone, or if walking then also I’ll take the Garmin 530 as a backup device.

For route plotting (either walking .or riding) I prefer to do this on a full PC with dual screens. I generally use a combo of bing maps (has OS mapping) and Strava heat maps.

I never use paper maps

In the actual hills of the lakes and dales it’s generally memory and feel with a phone in my pocket. V v rarely a paper map.

In the rural bits, following invisible footpaths round farms, having os maps on a phone is invaluable and so much quicker than a paper map. And if my phone exploded Id just have to talk nicely to farmer Palmer.

I’ve done multiple decades of the old school stuff. Would feel a bit exposed if map and compass free in any bit of the Highlands.

I’d disagree with that assessment, my Garmin will make a better fist of rerouting – either by shortest, or by road than I ever could  if it came to it if I’m cold or turned around in an area I don’t know. The only advantage maps have is the lack of battery they need to operate, it’s a significant advantage in some circumstances, but good planning and back up makes them all but redundant unless in extremis.

We clearly have way way difference experiences. Firstly, where I am journeying there is no way in hell I’d allow a computer to do the routing.For lots of reasons but primarily I might well not be using a path recognised as such on a map. I’m talking about the sort of scenario where we’d say planned to walk from A to B but something has changed (a weather front came in sooner than forecast or someone in the group was struggling and the pace was slower than planned). You are 20km+ from a road and the planned exit was west. Checking out the map beyond the screen (without having to scroll around) you can work out that if we abandon that, pop up onto the ridge and descent the other side by that gully into a different glen we can have a bit of shelter in that bothy for an hour to warm up and walk out faster to here and blag/hitch a lift to where we need to be. No garmin in the world will make any sort of fist of that. But being able to see 150+ sq km of map all at once allows you to look through the options pretty effectively and use your noggin and experience to sort a new and improved plan out. I know the group, can assess if the gully descent is reasonable and in their capabilities and I can see the weather and predict where shelter could be sort and headwinds tricky. Way beyond any Garmins capability. But me and a big old bit of map have a chance.

being able to see 150+ sq km of map all at once allows you to look through the options pretty effectively

Good point, I do use paper maps for planning new routes even in areas I know well.

It’s horses for courses and personal preferences and all that but I am genuinely surprised that paper maps have been described as obsolete and redundant.

Like Convert above, i am involved with DofE over this last year, did my MLTB Summer and Winter years ago, and have taken fresh first aid and DofE assessors courses this year to be able to help out my daughters and other small local rural schools trying to get it off the ground.

I have really enjoyed going back to map work, and have also really enjoyed teaching it, especially getting involved with a school where many of the kids are neuro-diverse and teaching them to think of the map as a book and the route as a story and asking what they can actually see and how it relates to the map, and even going into a bit of history and geography, when we have been walking some ancient routeways, you can really get them engaged, along with a few fun games.

I tend to find two type of map readers, the analytical who think in bearings, steps, pacing and that side of it, and those who are “Landscape” navigators, who can look at a map and see how it relates to the landscape around them, they are the ones who walk with their heads up, the best navigators combine the two.

Maps are also great for the “big picture” especially if you are new to an area or a route, see how everything relates to everything else, why that valley is there, why those slopes are particularly steep, what mans effect has been on landscape with mines etc, detail you won’t get from a small screen often

So if i am on my own and just wanting to move quickly then often use GPS, but always with a paper map as back up

Yeah, that’s not what I’m doing in the hills. I only ever do my exploring in areas I don’t know in the summer, I’m unlikely if not actually never going to be in the scenario you describe, I’m on on my bike, not on foot, and I’d only ever realistically need to get to the nearest village/town/ dropped pin. In the sorts of places I ride, that’s probs going to be max. 20 mins away down a county lane. It’s not a binary choice though, it’s just knowing beforehand what the realistic risk is and planning accordingly, I’d add that if you’re reliant on a  phone/device and it runs out of juice and you’ve no way of recharging it, that’s still bad planning, and if you’re that disorganised, a paper map probs isn’t going to help you that much.

Oddly enough I just had 4 new OS Explorer maps delivered yesterday. We are off to paddle the Spey in a few weeks and while we might not need them I don’t ilke to go anywhere like that without a) having a good look at the route and various options along the way, and b) carrying them with me for easy reference.

It’s also a very good opportunity to teach my 13 year old how to properly read maps. We will spend each morning looking at our route for the day, marking any potential obstacles, landmarks/waypoints, escape routes, lunch and camping spots. He can then mark them off as we pass them.

I do have the OS maps app on my phone and will take a power bank, but these will be backup only.

I tend to find two type of map readers, the analytical who think in bearings, steps, pacing and that side of it, and those who are “Landscape” navigators, who can look at a map and see how it relates to the landscape around them

That is very interesting, I’d never thought of it like that. Id put myself in the landscape set, I tend to feel my way and refer to the map when things don’t feel right.

Id say my main nav aid is my watch- am I taking too long, is there enough daylight left.

but I am genuinely surprised that paper maps have been described as obsolete and redundant.

Why? The vast majority of folks aren’t doing the sort of thing that @convert is doing, they’re downloading a route to a GPS head and following its turn-by-turn directions, in most cases that’s going to be perfectly fine even in areas you don’t know that well. Most folks are setting off from a village car park, heading out in a big loop on well trod tracks that can only be described as remote in as much as they’re a few miles from the nearest metalled road.

Personally speaking, I’ve got 4 compasses; one physical, one of my GPS head, one on my phone, one on my watch, I’ve got access to satellite powered maps (unlikely to loose a signal) on both my watch and GPS head I can download both 1:50 thou and 1:25 thou of the area (even as much as 150Km square) on my phone plus in extremis Google maps. I carry a battery if in the unlikely scenario my phone and or Garmin (8 hours on the 840) and days and days on my watch run out of juice.

For me, and the sorts of riding I do a paper map is redundant. For others; their needs will be different.

In recent years its mostly phone with os maps loaded.

It depends on if I was going into a more remote area though and planning to navigate somewhere with badly defined paths at which point I would be wanting map and compass (although I would need to do a refresher). I find the phone can give a pretty narrow view of things which is fine for my general use case but I think could be problematic in others.

I like to use maps to get the big picture of an area I am visiting but even that I tend to use a computer for now since it is handy jumping between scales.

I carry a paper map and Etrex GPS with breadcrumb track

The map is for “big picture”, full route, nearest road for “escape”, etc. The GPS is for current location and sticking to the plan

Phone is for phoning so the battery is preserved solely for that

being able to see 150+ sq km of map all at once

Not all of which will be useful to you, unless your current location is central to the printed map. Typically, it’ll be in the bottom right corner and then you might be wanting up to four maps 😉 Infinite scrolling on a GPS/Phone then becomes pretty useful.

I rarely take a paper map these days. GPS , watch and phone give me some contingency. FWIW how many paper map users are carrying two copies? I’ve seen more paper maps lost to high winds than I have phones or GPSs dropped and broken.

Garmin Explore with a TalkyToaster map.

Tend to follow heatmap paths – combination of quad tracks, shooting tracks etc that are on Open Street Map but not  OS maps.

This was Tuesday’s ride: (Carleatheran to Touch: https://www.opencyclemap.org/?zoom=14&lat=56.09508&lon=-4.07164&layers=B0000)

It’s just a featureless bog on the OS map:

I plan on Walkhighlands app usually – full OS mapping, can be pre-downloaded etc.
I have used OS app before, and usually pre-download a map.
I always have a compass and paper map, even if that is a printed map in a poly pocket as a ‘get out of the hill in case’ back up. Even last week I used my compass on a summit to confirm which direction our ride off was –

Sorry, can’t get quotes to work, but two things from Convert’s posts:

“I do wonder if there is a generation who had it from the start of their time in the hills and if the tech failed on them (dropping your phone or it bricking or running out of power is a thing- or just user error where you fail to download the map before setting off and find yourself without signal) might not have what it takes to sort themselves out.”

I think that’s probably more of an issue with experiencing being lost/confused and learning to deal with it regardless of the nav method. I did loads of walking as a kid 30+ yrs ago, Scouts, D of E, and with my mates, all map and compass. I reckon 50% of the time we had no idea where we were or were in the wrong place, but I guess that experience meant that we didn’t get stressed, adjusted our plans, partly as it was a laugh and we were young and a bit stupid. This was Peak district, Lakes and Snowdonia mostly, rather than big remote Scottish areas, where you can pretty much just turn left or right and find a road.

Do agree with this point to an extent though “Firstly, where I am journeying there is no way in hell I’d allow a computer to do the routing.”

Had experience of this at Easter – did a walk with the family at Easter in the FoD, they were struggling a bit so we cut it short. Options were to walk along the road (no verge so a bit iffy) or let the app re-route (didn’t bother with a paper map). We followed the re-routed walk down a cheeky DH track and ended up on one of the Red MTB routes briefly before getting on a fire road. I was more stressed doing that than any time I’ve been lost in a white-out on my own running or walking, but that was probably more that I was worried I’d end up as a thread on here moaning about bell end families strolling down MTB routes

I can recommend trying orienteering as a good way of improving navigation skills. There’s a wide variety of courses from 60 minute street eg lampposts, post boxes through to mountain multi hour events. They’re good for making you really think about where you are on a map and for matching up the various map features and how you travel through them.

Typically, it’ll be in the bottom right corner and then you might be wanting up to four maps 😉

Very true! Sod and his laws are normally at work on OSMaps!

Access to an OS maps account and a colour A3 printer helps a bit here though a laminated A3 page can be a faff. We normally arm our kids on expedition with their route on A4 laminated printouts (normally 2 copies of each day per group) and a waterproof copy of the relevant OS maps per group. We actually use aqua3.com maps a lot. OS maps centred around a grid ref of your choice. OS do the same themselves obviously but aqua3 are  way cheaper. So for areas we use a lot not covered by a single OS maps, a bespoke aqua3 of the area makes good financial sense.

I never had a smartphone until recently so always OS paper map and compass for me.

Now I have one, albeit with a very small screen, I hardly ever get out into the hills any more but I’d probably still use a map with the phone as a backup.

I can recommend trying orienteering as a good way of improving navigation skills. There’s a wide variety of courses from 60 minute street eg lampposts

Echo this. plus look out for fixed courses in parks in your area.

I think that rather than a discussion about the material the ‘thing you use to navigate is made from’, these sorts of threads are really about: How organised are you? and how well are you at assessing the risk?

For something proper serious I’d have paper backup, usually a custom print from OS maps in a plastic sleeve, but only probably for stuff in Scotland or Mid-Wales. Otherwise offline maps (tested) and a fully charged phone.