Because of the riots in the USA and the sympathy protests here in the UK, I got thinking about times I have encountered overt racism in my life, and my failure at the time to challenge it.

On at least two separate occasions, I remember talking with an elderly person who ended up saying something that, frankly, I couldn’t believe.

In both situations, it was about a prominent leader, and the fact that we couldn’t possibly countenance him holding power because of the colour of his skin.

Now, I grew up not seeing colour. My parents could probably be described as ‘anti-racists’ in the sense that they would never in a million years have tolerated racist thought or language. Our family friends were of all different backgrounds and ethnicities, and I was taught that different colours and cultures were just different ways of being human, and therefore to be celebrated.

I admit, though, when I heard the two comments I just referred to, I was dumbstruck. I literally did not know what to say. So I said nothing. I simply changed the subject, then moved away as quickly as I could.

I hope I wouldn’t do the same again, but racism seems to arise in really awkward situations, and while, when I was in a classroom, I would have had no problem addressing it, in a social setting I find it much, much harder.

Any experiences on here either similar or much more heroic? I just hope my kids are quicker on the uptake than I am.

Do sometimes wonder whether these days I should challenge anything that may put myself at risk. How am I going to feel afterwards ie have I actually achieved anything such as making someone think, how has it affected me physically by wasting precious energy, will it make me angry/frustrated/disappointed?

Frankly it can be a lot easier just gritting one’s teeth and ignoring. A good example was today and decided pdq that it was best to shut up.

I think your attitude was mature, whilst you’re a pretty good wordsmith SaxonRider it’s not always the right thing to do.

If you’re pretty certain you won’t get your head kicked in, challenge it.

If in doubt, a hard stare/tut combination, walk away and try never to speak to them again.

Of course, if you have any frozen sausages…….

It’s difficult, isn’t it?  My elderly mother often appears to be racist, commenting on a doctor’s ethnicity, for example. But in reality she’s quite deaf, and struggles with strong accents.

She’s always lived within 20 miles of her home town, so hasn’t really experienced anything other than the local accent, or BBC English.

Don’t know but politicians like Blow Jo have put back the slow improvement in race harmony at least 10 years.

Of course depends on situation but yes, I would challenge it wherever possible. Even if it’s a bit risky, I think it is a duty. Clearly – maybe not at if I found myself accidentally at a NF rally, or the only person on the last bus home with a group of neanderthals.

One example does stand out, at a football match probably 20 years ago – so not height of 80’s racism but still quite widespread – and a bloke a couple of rows back was giving an opposition black player all sorts of abuse. In the end I turned round and said words to the effect of ‘enough now mate’ and for a moment I thought it was going to cause trouble but instantly another couple of people around us agreed and backed me up. I think we’d all been thinking it but it took someone to say something to start the process.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.” said somebody else.
I consider it a duty too, because I’m white I’m in a position of privilege which is not afforded to people of colour, and they may not be in a position to challenge it as they are more likely to face retribution.
It’s important to recognise that racism isn’t only hate or aggression, it’s apathy, indifference, power…
Would people call out racial discrimination or profiling in the workplace for example?

It’s important to recognise that racism isn’t only hate or aggression, it’s apathy, indifference, power…

And ignorance.

Sorry OP, I missed the “How”. It depends on what form the racism takes, I’ve done everything from taking people aside to explain, politely challenging their views in open discussion, throwing an insult, and writing letters.
*Edit Thanks Kryton57, I forgot to point out that the list by Scott Woods isn’t exhaustive. Privilege is another

As a anglo saxon male of english protestant descent living in scotland- carefully as i am the oppressor personified!

I have and will challenge it when possible. I also will simply no longer speak to people who have been racist. One lifelong friend of mine I have had to stop speaking to as he is of jewish descent and is unspeakably racist about arabs

The most difficult situation I get is with patients with dementia who are racist towards the staff looking after them. The only real thing to do is protect the staff by keeping them away from the person and explaining to the family that this might mean they have to wait to receive care.

And ignorance.

Strong disagreement here with that, assuming ignorance equals lack of knowledge.

If that’s not the meaning intended, then I suggest being more cautious with the use of ambiguous words.

EDIT: That applies to the usage of ‘privilege’ as well.

The most difficult situation I get is with patients with dementia who are racist towards the staff looking after them.

Good example. Back in Canada, there was a very elderly woman who was absolutely loathsome in her attitude to Native Canadians. My God, her language was terrible. The thing is, she was also slightly crazy, and I think everyone – including me – didn’t exactly know how to deal with her. I ended up just apologising to the Cree people whom I knew to have been within earshot of her. Not my finest moment.

OP……”Growing up, not seeing colour” could be part of the problem.

If you want to learn a bit more… have a look at Reni Eddo-Lodge’s book “Why i’m no longer talking to white people about race.”

Strong disagreement here with that, assuming ignorance equals lack of knowledge.

If that’s not the meaning intended, then I suggest being more cautious with the use of ambiguous words.

EDIT: That applies to the usage of ‘privilege’ as well.

No, ignorance as deliberatly ignoring what’s going on, as Hols2 so eloquently demonstrated in the other thread;  its not happening to me / where I am / it won’t because of my own ethnic situation  – so I’ll turn the other cheek.

OK Kryton, I’m not entering into an argument over this, but that is not a definition of ignorant.

My son is a security officer at Heathrow. When a passenger was abusing one of his colleagues, he stepped in and did the right thing. He was only 18 at the time. I was immensely proud. You just treat people properly. That is all.

Vinnyeh, if someone makes a racist comment, it is still racist even if it’s through ignorance and they don’t mean to insult. The difference as to whether the individual is racist or not, is in whether they attempt to rectify their faux pas.
White privilege is also a form of racism as it benefits one skin colour over others, whether or not you intend it it still occurs and you still gain from it.

OP……”Growing up, not seeing colour” could be part of the problem.

I know you’re not attacking me, but I don’t know what you mean.

We didn’t see colour in the sense that when it came to people, they were just people. So, for example, our neighbours were just our neighbours regardless of where they came from of what their background. If we held a bbq for the street, then everyone was invited.

At the same time, people’s ethnicity and/or culture was something to share and celebrate.

Does the book you refer to address this? I’d be happy to read…

What makes you think Im arguing? I’m trying to explain what I meant:

Ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.

Ok, so maybe I used the wrong word, either you or someone else please feel free to replace it with the correct one.

Now, I grew up not seeing colour.

I was reading the other day a piece that said colour blindness is not ideal, because it means you end up ignoring the things that have already happened and are still happening.

Anyway. When people come out with shocking attitudes I just look horrified and if they care about me they’ll feel a bit embarassed and maybe start thinking about it; if they don’t care about me then they’ll just walk away. May not work for rowdy drunken thugs but then nothing does with them.

on the last bus home with a group of neanderthals.

Racist! Ok, they’re extinct – but no need to rub salt into the wounds by comparing them to neo-Nazis!

Ok, so maybe I used the wrong word, either you or someone else please feel free to replace it with the correct one.

I’m talking about ignoring the issue because its “a black problem”, or “them” or “in America” or ” not here” e.g. non white and not here in a general context

Maybe a better phrase is ‘blissfully-ignorant’? + if it requires ramping-up to ‘wilfully-ignorant’ then there’s that?

I know you’re not attacking me, but I don’t know what you mean

It might seem like a trivial example, but I saw someone talking about how until very recently if you bought a “flesh coloured” pair of tights, or sticking plaster, they were actually “white person flesh coloured”. As the only option. Were the tights or plaster manufacturers being deliberately racist? Probably not, if for no other reason than they could have made more money by selling products that worked for non-white people. But they didn’t see colour, as in they literally didn’t even realise that other colours existed beyond ‘white person skin’.

There is all kinds of other stuff about how we are actually different and how, due to racism and prejudice, some people will have a tougher time than others or have fewer opportunities despite putting the same effort in. Saying “I don’t see colour”, while well intentioned, kind of suggests that you won’t consider that. E.g. if you were working for the police complaints people and you said “I just don’t see colour, we’re all the same on the inside”. Well, that’s great, but if the police are doing something that means they’re getting a disproportionate number of complaints from non-white people, then maybe you should be noticing that colour and wondering if it’s got something to do with what’s going on.

Not having a go at you at all, just explaining (as a person with a mixed heritage) why that phrase isn’t as good as it first sounds.

What makes you think Im arguing? I’m trying to explain what I meant:

And just for clarification, I didn’t say you were arguing, I was letting you know that I wasn’t arguing with you. I’m trying to tiptoe my way here!

Vinnyeh, if someone makes a racist comment, it is still racist even if it’s through ignorance and they don’t mean to insult. The difference as to whether the individual is racist or not, is in whether they attempt to rectify their faux pas.
White privilege is also a form of racism as it benefits one skin colour over others, whether or not you intend it it still occurs and you still gain from it.

yes I (largely) agree with you over both situations, but I don’t think that broad brush words are appropriate- privilege as a shortcut for ‘white privilege’, and ignorant as a word to describe the situation you’ve used are just plain wrong- they lack context and nuance, and give licence to people to misinterpret, wilfully or otherwise.

Not having a go at you at all, just explaining (as a person with a mixed heritage) why that phrase isn’t as good as it first sounds.

Thanks for that. Very helpful.

The U.K. culture is still pretty well racist. My wife, an African, noticed a huge difference when she changed her surname. With her African surname she didn’t get many job interviews. With a British surname it opened so many doors.

A few years ago I asked my wife to register me with the medical practice she used as they were much better at giving appointments quickly than the practice I was registered with. She asked and they said he has to come in bring his passport and proof of address and national insurance or NHS card. I said “really I’ve never been asked for that before”. Anyway went to register they didn’t ask me for anything just an address and signature. If I wasn’t white I would have to jump through the hoops.

My wife often gets asked while working in the NHS ‘where are you from”. Then it’s “why did you decide to come here”. Then it’s “ when are you going home”. She’s a British citizen with a U.K. passport and two Scottish kids. I do sometimes wonder what kind of country do we live in. Thankfully most folk are fine but it is surprising how many racists are out there. The first thing they say is “ I’m not a racist”.

I love doing it. I’m bolshie as hell and have ended up in quite a lot of fights over it. It’s invigorating and cathartic. I never let it pass if I hear it.
Probably says more about me TBH.

Though if it’s family members I go more with the ignoring them thing. Mostly cos they’re all huns and will never take a lesson and at least with randoms they can’t give my name to the cops.

I also live in a really shitty area, so there might be more going on with that.

I remember talking with an elderly person who ended up saying something that, frankly, I couldn’t believe.

Our old nextdoor neighbour came round to tell us they’d sold the house to a single woman in her 40s ‘in case you were worried it would be a family of ****.’

I took a deep breath and was about to say something but realised it probably wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference.

I find that when dealing with older generations you sometimes have to filter out the difference between racist views and outdated language. My wife’s grandfather was a classic example of this when still alive – an east ender all his life who doted on his mixed race great granddaughter and would have her bouncing on his knee whilst talking about the ‘coloured’ lad next door.

As language continues to develop and what was once considered reasonable changes I’m sure I’ll stop to keep up at some point and cause consternation and suspicion.

Hi Saxon…… Thanks for being patient and also thanks for acknowledging that I wasn’t having a go. I know I can be a little blunt sometimes and was (as you correctly indicated) referring to the wider theme in the book.

I really would recommend Reni’s book. I found it really useful. I’m definitely not a wordsmith and would not be able to do her words justice but Reni talks at great (easy to read) length about the phrases “I don’t see colour” and “everyone’s the same to me.”

She suggests that these phrases don’t acknowledge that black people have a very different life experience to white people and to deny that there is a “difference” is to deny that the system is rigged in the favour of white people.

It was an interesting read. Made me think a lot about my own upbringing. Think I might just pick it up again.

This seeing of colour good/bad thing…. Surely it is perfectly possible to identify, acknowledge and appreciate the social disadvantage in a broader context (good) whilst not consciously ‘seeing’ it when serving someone in a shop (also good). When I hear the phrase I think of the latter but don’t feel an urge to nit pick and believe they are guilty of the former.

Well I generally call them a racist **** to their face. Last time was last year at a garden party when someone I know who is a Brit living in Germany started spouting off about the influx of middle eastern people into Germany and how they are all rapists and don’t want to integrate into the German society (the fact that he’s lived here as long as me and still can’t string a sentence together in German seemed to be lost on him) and how he voted AFD. Seemed to do the trick as he left pretty sharpish after I told him. 😡

Moonman, so what you’re basically saying is ‘all lives matter’ yeah?

Mooman. Note I did not use the word crazy

I have a situation where a patient is saying ” Get that effing N******** away from me” shouting and screaming and being abusive. That staff member is getting upset – badly so. More than half my staff are BAME

Its a horrible situation with no winners. Am I supposed to take white staff away from giving care to other patients? Keep the BAME staff attempting to give care upsetting both the staff member and the patient? The patient physically attacking the staff member? Or ( assuming they are safe) they have to wait until a white nurse is available?

I am afraid you show complete ignorance of what the reality is like in these sorts of situations

Not only do I have a duty of care to the racist patient. I have a duty of care to the staff member and to the rest of the patients. the balance may well be that the racist patient has to wait a bit longer. I would hope not but that may be the reality. what happens if I have more racist patients than white staff available?

The racism is NOT a symptom of the dementia. The dis-inhibition may well be. I still cannot allow that ataff member to be abused

In any other service industry that racist would be denied service. We cannot do that But I am not going to disadvantage other patients to provide white staff on demand.

Oh – and you would not be “pulling me up” about it. You have no standing whatsoever to challenge my professional judgement nor do you have the knowledge.

I find the whole white privilege thing offensive and blatantly ignorant.

Do you deny really white male privilege exists? I find that denial blatantly racist

On a lighter side of this noting the point above about outdated language being not the same as outright racismI did have one patient with dementia who when seeing a BAME staff member would cry out in delight – “Oh look a n*******” Nothing we could do would get her to stop! She was not being nasty deliberatly

How do you challenge racism?

I just avoid them by not even going anyway near them if it means I have to walk double the distance or not go at all.

I have no urge whatsoever to join whatever gathering or crowd or meet new people etc when I think there will be potential trouble especially where alcohol is consumed.

Better that way and less stress, no need to argue or to tell someone how to behave etc coz that is who they are … these days there is nothing much to interest me anyway.

Throughout my life in UK I have only encountered one person telling me to “go home” shouting from opposite the road once.

I used to have friends telling me they could not make out where I came from perhaps this can be the reason why I only got asked once to go home. I think they see me as no threat because there is only “one” of me … most of my friends got called all sorts of names.

My advice don’t go anyway near the areas where you think there will be potential troubles. Don’t even try to justify your views. Just don’t go. You will loose nothing but perhaps a bit bored that’s all.

My wife often gets asked while working in the NHS ‘where are you from”. Then it’s “why did you decide to come here”. Then it’s “ when are you going home”. She’s a British citizen with a U.K. passport and two Scottish kids. I do sometimes wonder what kind of country do we live in. Thankfully most folk are fine but it is surprising how many racists are out there. The first thing they say is “ I’m not a racist”.

Funny your wife got asked those questions as I got asked the same questions too. I might be a bit thick so did not make anything of it, but when I was the same questions again by the colleague on several occasions I thought to myself one of us might be thicker but let it be.

“where are you from” – I just told them honestly where I came from.
“why did you decide to come here” – I just told them I wanted to see the world and got stuck here (honest).
“when are you going home” – Don’t know (honestly).

With humour where possible and evidence. A bloke on our Faceparty group is a shocker (happens to be a jewish landlord), not knee-jerk stuff but real articulated apartheid racism and we’re expected to allow it to go unchallenged as he’s above criticism.
However anti-racism and anti-sexism should not supplant class politics. Promoting minority groups into management roles and professions, whilst it obviously should happen, does not challenge structural inequality. It just makes it look a bit more like a meritocracy and it’s rather jolly for those lucky people who have gone a bit up the social scale.
I can’t see people like James Cleverly voting through austerity measures to be of much benefit to your average minority person on the Clapham omnibus. But at least Cleverly shows us you can be a right **** (complete as appropriate) whatever your background, so that’s progress of sorts. You come across people who insistently speak the fine and dandy politically correct form of English from countries and cultures where stark racial, sexual and caste divisions are maintained. It helps when it suits, words come free.

No, ignorance as deliberatly ignoring what’s going on, as Hols2 so eloquently demonstrated in the other thread

Whose still posting, you have to question STW/The mods views on racism if stuff like that (and other posts i’ve seen on here) is allowed to fly

I’ve cancelled my sub if thats what they think is acceptable

Just to be a pedantic

My wife, an African

She’s a British citizen with a U.K. passport

I don’t see an issue with asking about someones heritage. Does your wife speak with a UK accent?

I don’t see colour either. your skin colour is irrelevant