[Closed] How deep for road wheels?

Mavic cosmic carbone slr

New version has an alloy rim that stays black

[IMG] [/IMG]
MM

Depth of rims is just the latest marketing crap the rim manufacturers have come up with to differentiate products and convince you you need more wheels.

std 25mm or so rims will be lightest, most comfortable and IMO best for road racing...especially when trudging up some hill on your own, having been dropped 😛

EDIT I'd get stans alphas (350gm) or the on-one 250gm carbon tubular rims built onto some std hubs - 50mm rims will be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY heavier for the same money - and probably more.

Have you ever posted that opinion on a Tri forum Al?
+ 50mm wheels sound so cool when your doing warm up laps on the crit circuit, it pretty much confirms 'I will be leaving with points' before your on the line

I've raced all season with Open sports on Hope Pro2's, just fancied something a bit better for next year.

The Cosmics were on the list, with Shimano RS80's,
I'll have a look at the Alphas.

Depth of rims is just the latest marketing crap the rim manufacturers have come up with to differentiate products and convince you you need more wheels.

Strange that Pros use them then isn't it...

deep wheels are loved by tri athletes because they're battering along on their own into the wind, think domestiques use them if leading the team leader? If you'll be in the pack then low profile would be fine.

This is all based on tinterweb rather than my own experience btw

scratch - Member
Have you ever posted that opinion on a Tri forum Al?
+ 50mm wheels sound so cool when your doing warm up laps on the crit circuit, it pretty much confirms 'I will be leaving with points' before your on the line

Tri is different - that's a time trial. I'm aware tri has an even higher concentration of bell-ends than mtb and even road racing.

warton - Member
Strange that Pros use them then isn't it...

Do you think they don't get paid to?

Do you think they don't get paid to?

OK, so Mark Cavendish uses deep rims, even though they effect his performance because he gets paid to. and he, and his team are OK with that?

"[b][u][i]a[/b][/u][/i]ffect" 😉 or is it? 😛

Is he riding ones that are available to the public? Affordable, if so?

Why haven't pros been riding 50mm rims in the tour etc for the 20-odd years they've been available if they are indeed faster?

I should also add - value is a prime factor for me buying bike stuff. So if you can get a 250gm (tub) rim for £100, or a 350gm one for £85, IMO they **** all over the factory stuff - cos you can build them onto reasonable hubs and spokes and get the same feel as £800 wheelsets for less than half the price.

I think it's pretty well established that weight doesn't actually make a significant difference in actual performance - even at the rim - it's more of a psychological help - one I'm happy to have if I can afford it!

[i]it pretty much confirms 'I will be leaving with points' before your on the line[/i]

No. It really doesn't.

As Al has suggested, if you think the way to win road races or crits is to buy fancy wheels, you'd better take a bag to put your arse in when it gets handed to you.

If you really want to win, learn to sprint. Pretty much every third cat race ends in a sprint and if you can't sprint, you won't win.

I'd unquestionably choose deep rims for road racing.

but only if I was getting them through sponsorship or I was stupid rich. The good ones are brilliant but they tend to cost 1k+. Cheaper ones tend not to be deep enough to have a real Aero advantage and weigh a ton. they do look nice though...

Given the ability for Cat 3 and 4 racers to crash on demand I'd go with Cynic-Als idea of a quality handbuilt, easily as light but repairable.

Zipp 303 carbon tubs - the perfect compromise between light and aero - I have some are they are awesome!

But if you want to win points - don't buy wheels, buy a decent coach - or as someone said earlier - learn to sprint.

I certainly wouldn't go above 50mm for roadracing. Also as plenty of people have mentioned having deepsections doesn't make too much of a difference at this level - often they are worse heavier to accelerate/ poorer braking / terrible in sidewinds. If you get off the front then getting onto the drops makes more of a difference.

Get some deep sections if you want just not too deep or heavy.

I'm a big fan of zipp 404's and tubular of course

Have a look here [url= http://www.royles.biz/category/169/Road ]Royles[/url] and take advantage of the 25% discount Bikeradar offer, you can get a proper bargain.

Thanks for the info!

it pretty much confirms 'I will be leaving with points' before your on the line

Joking! I'll have a look at some decent / light'ish mavics or stans

I've got an pair of rs80's 50mm rear 25mm front with conti gp4000's ....less than 200miles on them for sale.
Just built some am classic/planetx 50mm tubs 😀

Why haven't pros been riding 50mm rims in the tour etc for the 20-odd years they've been available if they are indeed faster?

100% about the weight limit, and the proliferation of carbon making them lighter.

Look at the few years before the 6.8kg limit came in - no deeps (or any other aero concessions) at all, now bikes are on the weight limit and they need to add weight back on why not do it in areas that bring other advantages. A byproduct of that is things like wind tunnel testing and what not.

Begs the question of whether their use would be as widespread if the weight limit was dropped though. I suspect they would on flat stages, technology's come on a huge amount even in 5 years.

I'd get stans alphas (350gm) or the on-one 250gm carbon tubular rims built onto some std hubs - 50mm rims will be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY heavier for the same money - and probably more

The Planet X 50mm tub rims are 350g (as are plenty on eBay), ie exactly the same as Alphas. I doubt the Alphas are quicker in anything other than a very strong crosswind.

For racing that's what I'd use.

Indeed - he's talking clinchers tho innhe?

Yeah but he needs to get over that for a set of race wheels 🙂

Deep section clinchers are heavy, I agree with your choice of Alphas if clinchers are a must.

Yeah I noticed the rim weight differences on the tubs/clinchers.
I've never used tubs before, and I know little about them, they scare me.

The most important thing about aero road wheels is that:

a) they look cool
b) they sound cool

Everyone knows that is the most important thing. Who gives a stuff about the weight 😉

no, the most important thing about deep-section wheels is the extra space they provide for branding.

skinny steel frames are more 'aero' than modern cfrp stuff, but you can't fit 300 font letters on them..

I know little about them, they scare me

Those 2 are statements are not mutually exclusive... There's not much to know. Conti are dependable, Veloflex, Schwalbe and Vittoria are all good. It takes a couple of hours to fit tyres and involves glue. Changing is a bit more of a faff. They're lighter, faster, grippier, perform better when punctured and more expensive.

no, the most important thing about deep-section wheels is the extra space they provide for branding.

2 hours to fit tubs WTF? And isn't the weight difference minimal? They do ride really well, but then so do my tubeless Hutchinsons (both subjectively)

I tried them but binned it when I got a puncture really early on. I want to try it again though seeing as how stans seems to make punctures a thing of the past.

If only I could sell my alphas...

skinny steel frames are more 'aero' than modern cfrp stuff,

Really? On what basis? I can vaguely accept less frontal area, but that's not everything, not to mention weight and stiffness.

2 hours to fit tubs WTF? And isn't the weight difference minimal?

You have to leave the glue to 'go off' for an hour or so, and it depends if you have to clean glue residue off the rim, and how anal you are about getting it perfectly straight. It's not hard, just worth doing right!

Weight difference for alu rims is small, but carbon tends to bigger, 100g+ per rim, and carbon tubs are generally cheaper, and they respond better to heat, brake tracks can warp on clinchers if they get too hot.

I've got an pair of rs80's 50mm rear 25mm front with conti gp4000's ....less than 200miles on them for sale.

How much?

Ah furry muff -I've used glue and thought you were referring to the weight of the tyre vs tbb.

It's hard to compare tyres objectively, because there's such a range. A Conti GP Supersonic with Schwalbe XXX Lite tube is lighter than most tubs, but will last 500 miles if you're lucky!

A Schwalbe Ultremo tub is 260g, a clincher is 195g, so unless you use anything but the lightest tubes they're about the same, if anything the tub has the edge there too.

If you're a proper weight weenie, [url= http://www.tufo.com/elite-jet-160g-1/ ]these[/url] are gauranteed under 160g, they used to do a lighter one, but I suspect their lifespan was measureable in minutes.

"skinny steel frames are more 'aero' than modern cfrp stuff"

Really? On what basis? I can vaguely accept less frontal area

exactly.

trust me, i'm a rocket scientist.

I've emithered you stuey.

I've emithered you stuey.

Ta, I'm offshore at the mo (get me), so I'll check when I get back later.

Tub rims are usually a lot lighter than clinchers though.
But not the new Lightweight ones I was manhandling last week.....which for 3k a pair I'd hope not.

I run Ultremo clinchers 195g with Maxis Ultralight tubes 65g, thats 260g.

Wheels are Real Design @ 1365 a pair, I'd rather go light than deep!

according to my sources 😉

[i]1kg lighter would save 1 minute on a thirty minute climb[/i] (Bradley Wiggins)

and

[i]at a constant output of 250w the average gain from aero wheels is 8kmh[/i] (some aero expert in a cycling mag interview)

Make of that what you like 🙂

Unless you are doing alpine length climbs or your aero wheels add kilos extra then I'd opt for the aero benefits every time.

Argh, I was set on clinchers! looking on the tube tubs don't appear to be much hassle to fit....

The bike I'm looking at comes with Mavic Ksyrium Equipe's, I'll probably leave these on till we get going in the late spring tbh.

Its just if they don't seal (or you tear them) its £40-75 down the swanny.
Tubs for racing....clinchers for training.

Slight hijack but still on topic.

If you were thinking about doing your first race ever - cat4 on country lanes - would I need to upgrade my R500 bombproof do it all wheels to say something like a PX model B? Or would there be no difference?

Its on a Bianchi Via Nirone AluCarbon if that matters.

I run Ultremo clinchers 195g with Maxis Ultralight tubes 65g, thats 260g.

Wheels are Real Design @ 1365 a pair, I'd rather go light than deep!

Right, I'd have both! You could build a set of tub wheels with 50mm rims, for less than £400, that weigh 1200g. The Ultremo tub is exactly the same weight, so that's 165g weight saved and all the aero benefits.

If you were thinking about doing your first race ever - cat4 on country lanes - would I need to upgrade my R500 bombproof do it all wheels to say something like a PX model B? Or would there be no difference?

Chuff all difference - don't get bogged down in the 'need' for top end equipment. It'll give you a bit of a helping hand, but it's far from essential. The road bike analogy I used to offer was: 'Lance Armstrong could race a £500 road bike in the Tour, he'd be marginally slower, but otherwise fine. If Steve Peat raced a £500 MTB in the World Cup he'd be taking his life into his hands.'

It's all marginal gains on the road. I'd not bother going for anything that wasn't a big improvement (and model Bs are never gonna be a big improvement 🙂 )

If you were thinking about doing your first race ever - cat4 on country lanes

Your R500 wheels will be fine. In your first race, you'll likely be more worried about keeping position in the pack and trying to work out what's going on. Do some racing. If you then find that your equipment is holding you back then look at getting some new kit or just trying some to see if it *really* makes a difference. New kit often makes things feel better but doesn't make you any faster...

Though new kit's nice, just don't kid yourself about any performance advantages 🙂

Thanks gents, good advice. Off to find some training resources now. I'm quite fit on the bike but not sure where to direct training over winter at the moment. My club mainly do Sportive training which isnt for me I dont have time to be doing all day 100 milers.

Will chat to club leader tonight and see what he says about other local racing training.

At what stage will i be able to justify a Colnago C59 as helping my racing 🙂

Carb, I rode my commute for my first season, open sports on hope hubs, there still going well on the way in today. I'd stick with your R500's.

I really fell for road racing last year, really enjoyed the racing and camaraderie (apart from that freaking soaking tour of Carmarthenshire) I said before I started if I enjoy it I'll finish the season on the commute and if funds allow look to get something before next season.

Yeah it's marginal gains but I dunno, kind of feel I deserve it a bit more now.

What is your commuter Scratch?

did you just roll up at an event for your first one or did you know someone who could guide you in with training in advance?

I just rolled up and gave it a punt, got dropped at the first one as I didn't know what to do/where to be, been fine ever since. Don't mind it, but don't love it. I've done a lot more closed circuit crits than open road races admittedly, I think a more interesting course would help.

My Commutes an old Lemond Etape frame I picked up for £200.

First race was a close circuit crit, I turned up and bumped into a rider from our club, I'd never met him before, he said something along the lines of 'hold your line in the corners' and 'try to keep up'
I was yo-yo'ing about all over the place half hour later, admittedly I needed more practice riding with a group but kept out of peoples way and started to learn the ropes after a couple of races.

There's a Twitter feed called MTFU_Training which posts regular "toughen the **** up" style funny messages (well, some are funny).

One earlier today read:
Thinking about new race wheels for next season? Try thinking about the circumference of your waistline first. #mtfu #fatbastard

😉

Don't get too caught up in the kit race at 3rd/4th cat level. Pretty much anything will do the job.

Thinking about new race wheels for next season? Try thinking about the circumference of your waistline first

That is actually brilliant advice. As would

Thinking about new race wheels for next season? Try thinking about using the money for a training camp which won't be as flashy on the start line but will make you faster.

You could get a spray tan....much cheaper, looks like you've been putting in the training miles abroad.............................until you get lapped 😉

my 2 pence... i prefere to race on tubs they ride so much nicer.... 50mm are fine in all but the worst wind if the course has some proper sustained climbs then i will ride shallow section....tubs again...
i train on ksyrium sl-ltds because theyre stiff and bombproof ( i live in the peak district) and i will race on a 66mm for crits (stiffer) which is 1400g a 50mm which is 1295g and a 20 mm which is 1038g
i like the way that a shallow rim picks up speed on climbs,depends how heavy you are thought to be honest
Bruce