Hillsborough

Binners, RtCat – my thoughts much as yours again. The piece the BBC had found was a briefing that SYP were being their normal deceitful selves – ie she knew they were lying.
Give her her day in court to explain what she did about a lying constabulary.

Twenty years on I suspect the tensions of Orgreave have died down and the police and community are somewhat closer, but not living in Sheffield I don’t really know.

The hooligan issue is a red herring.

Yes fences were put up to ‘contain’ the problem but in doing so it created another, as the horrible events of that day proved.

Crowd dynamics and pyschology plan a huge part in stadium design these days. The issues that led to Hillsborough didn’t appear on the day. They were well known previously and concerns were not acted upon.

The comments about the police’s attitude to the working class and football fans at the time is an interesting perspective.

The bottom line is that SYP knew they were at fault. They systematically and delberately covered up their failings. They attempted to blame the deceased and other fans for failings that they knew were theirs.

What do we mean by ‘welcoming the broad thrust of the report’? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations – M.T.”

Surely she was only saying that the failures of the police were not “good news” and therefore one could not welcome them, it was just a matter of precise language.

What she was saying was that she didn’t want her government endorsing even the slightest criticism of her private militia the Police. No matter what it is they were actually guilty of. Even the death of 96 people and subsequent cover up. Anyway… as they were just footie fans, and northern ones at that, in her eyes they were expendable anyway.

We can’t be upsetting the storm troopers though, can we ? Not when you’ve relied on them to keep the proles in line for the last decade, when they start getting uppity and demanding things like rights/jobs/not living in abject squalor etc, etc, etc

Here’s a question for everyone to chew on. Now that so many officers have been implicated in lying and falsifying statements, could that have an effect on any other evidence given in there careers?

They have proven a willingness to lie and deceive at a moment when it was of the utmost importance that they stood up and acted with honesty and integrity, now how can any other action taken in their working lives be assumed to be honest and correct.

And remember that duplicity didn’t end in 1989.

@Yossarian – no the football violence of the time is pertinent as it was a contributory factor. If the cages/pens had not been necessary to contain the cohorts in tent on violence the crowd would have spilled onto the pitch and the incompetent behaviour shown on the day in controlling the crowd would have had a much smaller effect. It does not remove the fact that the Police failed to deal with the circumstances and environment in place at the time but it cannot be ignored.

@IGM – left in 1983 to go to Uni and the general public had a good relationship with the local Police, since the Miners strike relationships have improved measurably but there is still some residual resentment. You have to remember that the Miners strike and its repercussions destroyed swathes of communities across SY and the ripple effects are still very much in evidence. The relationship was destroyed by the arrival of the Met during the strike, there’s plenty of reference in the internet to read if you are interested.

It does not remove the fact that the Police failed to deal with the circumstances and environment in place at the time but it cannot be ignored.

i think maybe we are talking at cross purposes on this. Yes, wthout croud trouble fences would not have been present. No, on the day there was no trouble, so it cannot have been a contributing factor in the police’s decisions and behaviour at the scene.

There are still people (on here and other sites) who choose not to read the painstaking results of a long running independent inquiry into the events of that tragic day in sheffield.

They somehow have greater insight into the world and all its machinations than the rest of us, some would probably be suited to a career in the police, thats if they aren’t already.

Its interesting to note that after all the enquiries etc there are several people who still think that crowd disorder played a part.

At this game there disorder was not a contributing factor as stated in the latest report despite what the police said. It does howeve recognise that there were isolated incident, these may have been arguments etc, quite normal at a large gathering of people.

Reading some of the documents the briefing officer at the time focusses on Liverpool fans and their propensity for violence. Now thats in his briefing notes the day before. Developing the attitude in his oficers that they are in for a tough time. Now that set the scene of the attitude across the police ranks. After the fact the realisation that they screwed up big time, costing many many lives of innocent people they tried to implicate the dead. They closed ranks and covered up. Fed falsehoods to the media who were so tightly in bed and anti Liverpool that certain media individuals could not wait to print the filth they did.

Now today we have people without a clue, Donk, thisisnotaspoon, user-removed. Catch up with what actually happened before commenting. This incident and the aftermath did not just affect the families and te club biut the city of Liverpool as a whole for many years.

The police attitude was bigotted towards football fans before the event. As has been stated there were a catalogue of errors leading upto the disaster that could have and should have beenn avoided if SW had compied with their responsibilities. In the aftermath there was a systematic coverup at the highest level. There is not a single commentator still blamin the fans apart from a few on here who see them as a contributing factor. There only contribution was being there and their trust in the authorities who we still trust to this day.

There have been many injustices but this is personal to me and no matter how I feel will not get drawn into saying how I feel about some of the comments here I will just suggest you look a little deeper before commenting on something you obviously know very very little about.

I may be mistaken, but I don’t think anyone is suggesting that there was any crowd disorder on this day. However, some of the circumstances that contributed to the tragedy had their roots in previous incidents (e.g. the pitch-side fencing).

pinqu66- a very dignified and succinct post– respect

@ Yossarian – yep agreed. The one defence that the Police have not yet rolled out is fear of another Heysel Stadium but I’m sure that will come if this gets to prosecutions etc.

Druid I feel these suggest crowd disorder, however I may be incorrect and emotive in my judgement. Certainly previous incidents contributed to attitudes of the police, not just to Liverpool fans but football policing in general. Fans are still to this day coraled but there are still a very small minority of people attending games who are undesirable. Other countries could learn a great deal to stamp out the violence we occasionally see at games abroad. BUT the police should be professional and deal with situations as they are and enter into it with preconceived ideas and then after the fact archestrate a coverup that continued to affect the lives of people for 23 years.

But come on. “Pens”, “Control”, “Herding”. These are terms usually applied to sheep. If human beings are behaving like animals, why should we be surprised when tragedy occurs as a direct result of hundreds of humans trying to beat the living daylights out of hundreds of other human beings?

Surely some of the members of that very big crowd contributed in some way to that awful situation

Rogerthecat I think using Heysel as a defence is a little late but it would not suprise me if that happened. The authorities have had long enough to grow a pair and stand up but have been forced to do so.

I have absolutely no respect for those involved in the coverup and lies and shed a few tears for freinds and family involved in this last night. At last the 96, Liverpool FC and fans have been vindicated. Many can move on with their lives. Some will fight on for a full open and honest enquiry which now can only go one way. I trully hope that some of the perpetrators of this injustice are prosecuted however I very much doubt it. The most important thing has been Justice for the 96.

Well I’ve been watching the news and this is the topic of the day.

I can’t actually remember that far back when this happened, I think I was sailing around the Med, anyhoo’s my point I tried to make earlier was this:

It’s been an awful long time now and I think really people ought to have but this to rest after the event, not bring the whole thing back up again.

Quite right people are brought to justice over errors made, but all this time passed.. some kids parents have to go through the greiving process each time this subkects raised.

I’m not too sure I could do that.

Anyhoos.. Best to all that have been affected. Shitty mess, shitty mess indeed.

bikebuoy– do you read before you post?

bikebuoy -It’s been an awful long time now and I think really people ought to have but this to rest after the event

This is probably the stupidest, even it’s not malicious, thing I’ve ever read on here.

Not sure if anyone else here experienced it all first hand.
I was there in 1988, and the organisation was shambolic. There were always going to be more Liverpool fans than Forest, so it defied logic that the more spacious end of the ground was given to Forest. There may have been some reason for that, but no lessons seem to have been learned that year.
In 1989 my pal and I, in the best decision we’ll ever make in our stupid lives, moved from behind the goal over an hour before kick-off, because there was, even then, barely room to breathe. Police and stewards were nowhere to be seen when we entered the ground, and were patently oblivious to, or uninterested in, to the overcrowding building up long before kick-off.
We watched from the safety of the back of that stand as people died, the Liverpool fans did what they could and the “organisers” fell to pieces. That failure was bad enough. The subsequent months, years and decades of lies are worse. I hope the axe now falls. Then, maybe, we can start putting it to rest.

Yeah… you’re absolutely right Bikebouy. Its all so frightful isn’t it. Those pesky scousers going on and on with their wearisome desire for truth and justice and all that nonsense

Why can’t they just accept that their sons/fathers/whatever are dead, and just get on with stuff, so everybody else doesn’t have to listen to it. And the good folk of SYP, and Kelvin mackenzie can get back to their careers uninterupted by having to revisit their lies and deceit

Congratulations – the most idiotic post I’ve ever read on here! 🙄

i suspect Bikebouy’s post comes from a compassionate standpoint towards the parents rather than anything else. Could maybe have been better worded though.

I don’t normally post on topics such as this but bikebuoy’s last post has sent me over the edge. I was with the 1000’s last night at St George’s Hall plaza and heard first hand the thoughts of mothers of the deceased who have declined to collect their children’s death certificates because of the incorrect cause of death they state. That is why they have fought for all these years and why any right minded person should weap at the suffering they have been through.

As a parent of 2 children, i’d fight for the rest of my life to ensure that my kids went to a better place without the lies of others blaming them for something they didn’t do. 😥 Imagine having a Government and Police Force against you as you fought to clear your child’s name…

JFT96

Zimbo I experienced it first hand, lost two mates

I understand what bikebouy is saying but its ill informed and ill conceived, its the people who should have been able to “put this to bed” who failed in their lies and deceipt. The police who didn’t tell the truth and the enquiry that failed to uncover the truth. Its also the families, the mums and dads, sons and daughters who have been fighting for justice. If you had read anything you would have realised that and therefore it is a stupid post. It hasn’t been brought up again it has been an ongoing fight for justice for 23 years and only now the truth is being told despite what many thousands of people knew their voices simply were not heard.

140000 signed the epetition to get the documents released, 140000 that were shouting about the injustice. At every turn turn the campaign was blocked by lies and beauracracy, nobody in authority wanted to listen now they have to and I feel now they should act and have a full new enquiry and if possible deal with the people who let us all down not just the families and freinds but the country as a whole for the depth and breadth of the coverup. If we had needed a million signatures they would have got them. Only now can 96 souls rest in peace.

Just heard David Mellor on R2, never thought I would ever say this but what a superb interview. He was calling for new inquest into this, complete exposure of all involved in any attempt to pervert the course of justice and anyone found doing so to be brought before the courts, irrespective of role, rank or position, no sacred cows.

pingu66 – great posts.

For me it’s not personal, but as a football fan I’ve despaired at the attitudes of some of my fellow fans (a minority, fortunately) who have trotted out the same old lies for years… “ticketless scousers jibbing in”… “arriving late and pissed up” (I don’t know who these temparate and punctual football fans are who have never done either, mind).

A lot of minds were changed yesterday. Those that weren’t never will be. The justice campaign has done a remarkable and important job.

pingu66 – Zimbo I experienced it first hand, lost two mates

I only lost a few nights’ sleep thinking how close I came. It must have been/still be unbearable for you and all those other friends, mothers, fathers. I hope you can get some closure now.

Rogerthecat – I was in the states in 83 & 84 so missed the miner’s strike (not that I regret missing it much).

From Glasgow, but moved to Yorkshire in 1992 working for the electricity out of Leeds/Castleford – so I’d agree there are plenty of communities even now where the miners are still there but the mines have gone.

Sadly a lot of it looked like the Lanarkshire fields from where I grew up did a few years earlier.

Our regular Tursday night ride from work passes both deep and opencast and uses a railway built to serve them – all now defunct.

David Mellor on R2, never thought I would ever say this but what a superb interview

If he’s been saying this for 23 years, then good on him for reiterating it now. If he hasn’t then he should shut the f&*k up with his political posturing.

I’m gonna hold my hands up and say that i thought that this was going to be another whitewash report and nothing new would be shown and i even got to the point of thinking let it go. How bloody wrong could i be… I never believed it was the fault of the fans and assumed that the ground and the police gad just made some genuine if unforgivable mistakes. I never dreamed what has come out to be true and has really unnerved me as to my expectations of “the authorities” (sweeping generalisation). Its one thing to do the wrong thing but to then put into place a systemeatic plan of not only taking no responsability but to actively blame a wholly innocent group is so wrong i cant really find the words to be honest. I really hope this is the start of not only criminal proceedings but also a fresh start the the family and those who were there.

@Zimbo – whether it is political posturing or not is not really an issue for me, more important is that the addition of his voice to the debate may help drive this through to its rightful conclusion. As a well known football supporter at least he is credible from that perspective.

Mellor was also a Home Office minister in the late eighties. I question his motives. The last thing this movement for justice needs is disingenuous band-wagon jumpers seeking to wash the sh*t off their hands. If his motives are clean, then maybe his opinion is welcome.

@Zimbo Splitting hairs I know, but not a minister until 1990, junior prior to that and then Arts, Treasury and think he may have been first in Heritage.

He’s a politician, so his motives are therefore questionable, it’s just a case of degrees and whether his input can help, he is a QC so should be capable of providing relevant comment.

hillsborough was always going to happen due to the way football was in the 80’s.
The erros made were tragic and the cover up is typical, but if not Hillsborough then a similar incident was just waiting to happen at most of the grounds in the uk.
The way football hooliganism had been developing since the 70’s and the reaction by the police clubs etc was just all building up to an incident like Hillsborough.
Lessons have been learned, despite the cover up and football is a totally different experience now from what it was, but you had to be there to know what the fighting was like and how the police behaved, and how the fans loved it, the police loved it, and how it was organised and how the fans tried to outwit the police to get at the other fans, and then you may understand why the police behaved like they did. why crowd safety was not the primary concern of anyone.

Mellor was in charge of the Football Task Force in the late 90s, and I believe was at the Home Office when it set up the Taylor review post Hillsborough, and despite being a Chelsea fan, is probably less of a bandwagon jumper than most politicians who are spouting about this.

Sancho – agree with your comments.

is probably less of a bandwagon jumper than most politicians who are spouting about this

I remain to be convinced.

It’s that rare occasion, though, where one MP has acted with absolute integrity. Steve Rotheram. He should be proud of himself.

I don’t think the fans loved it at all, most of them hated the way it was, but they were all treated like animals for no other reason than going to watch a football match. The violence was (as it always is) perpetrated by a minority, the authorities response was to abuse everyone in exactly the same manner with no regard to guilt or innocence.

@MSP – as someone who was at football matches in the late 70s and early 80s the violence was perpetrated by a small but sizeable number. However they were encouraged and cheered by a much larger number.

I can remember being at school and 6th form listening to football supporters revelling in the antics of their particular club hooligans. It was the main reason that I refused to take my dad and uncle any more, it was just too scary and dangerous.

Nobody is arguing the fact that shortly before this disaster football hooliganism was planned and perpetrated on a large scale by a minority of people.

The facts are that yes no doubt there were some issues at Hillsborough but not organised etc. No doubt some fans were arrested and SW fans aswell. But non of this, despite the continued assertions by those in authority has been born out as factual nor a contributing factor on that fateful day when 96 fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, freinds and loved ones were let down. Believe me if they had come out and said we screwed up, we made mistakes, we lost control or didnt have any control the story would be very very different. No they tried to cover themselves. Not only have they tarnished their own names now but the good work some police actually do is tarnished, how can we believe this is not still the case until the next big incident.

A report by Detective Inspector King of SYP looks at several matches where Liverpool fans were arrested prior to that fateful day and tries to leverage that report as evidence that Liverpool fans were orchestrating some form of concentrated or organised insertion into the ground. He also in his report has “witness” statements from people. Comments in his report are along the lines of barmaid x was talking to 3 or 4 men who identified themselves as Liverpool fans. I am sorry but that makes no sense. Hello love I am a Liverpool fan can I have 4 lagers for myself and my 3 other Liverpool fans! Surely the identity was they had Liverpool shirts on! The level of effort made to hide their culpability and tarnish the names of those men, women and children is unfathomable.

Yes you will always get fans that travel without tickets. It still happens today but on this day the guilty were the police, the government after the fact and SW for not having addressed the issues they had known about for years.

Many many people in Liverpool are shocked by the level of the coverup, we all knew there was a coverup but not at this scale. The doubters across the UK now know the truth. Even the most hardened cynic of all, Kelvin MacKenzie, has tried to apologise, which will never be accepted.

For 23 years the coverup tried to blame 96 lost souls for that day, dead people dont talk, or at least they hoped. They didn’t count on the tenacity of their loved ones, the belief they had in discovering the truth.

Those in power and positions of authority who have lied and schemed to pervert the course of justice should trully be ashamed of themselves. Hopefully some will be made an example of.

@Pingu66 – I think the discussion prior to your post has moved the topic offline a little to a discussion of the general malaise in football at the time.

I don’t think anyone was suggesting that violence, organised or otherwise, played a direct part in the tragic events of that particular Saturday, I certainly did not intend to imply as much.

Those in power and positions of authority who have lied and schemed to pervert the course of justice should trully be ashamed of themselves. Hopefully some will be made an example of.

Hopefully all will be treated as the criminals they are.

rogerthecat no i realise that and I agree whole heartedly with their comments. They were indeed dark days for football.

It is an awful lot better now.