Hillsborough

Perhaps you should read the report before commenting .

Got as far as the end of the summary, doesn’t really say anything new that wasn’t known/suspected already.

The police let them in, then didn’t act perfectly when some of the pens became overcrowded. I think that’s a more important point that rarely seems to be mentioned? SWFC resisted repeated calls for safety at the ground to be improved, things like segregating the turnstiles to count people into the terraces and the size of the gates between the pens and the pitch, it didn’t meet the contemporary standards. The police covered up their own mistakes, but that doesn’t mean they were entirely to blame, they weren’t batton charging the back of the crowd which was pushing to get in.

obviously youve never waited for a train or bus to arrive at rush hour, where the most gentle and polite old biddy becomes a raging tiger trying to get on the bus or train.

People will push and shove to get where theyre wanting to get, its a natuaral ingrained thing.

Exactly, it’s peoples fault, the police were there to try and prevent it but failed. Blaming the police for it happening is like blaming them for a bad car crash, they’re supposed to try and prevent them but it’s one of the drivers fault, unfortunately the innocent guy in the other car dies as well.

Blame them for the cover up, fine.
Blame them for not making perfect decisions, fine.
Blame them for other peoples actions?

It was an accident waiting to happen, with paid “professionals” supposedly in place to protect and not actively contribute to a shocking disaster.

I remember being at too many matches around that time when you were treated by scum by the plod.

Normally perched on horses looking down their nose at you while on over time.

That and tight pens being squashed like a piece of soft fruit.

If there had been an admission some years ago then perhaps and its a big ask, the families could have perhaps begun the grieving process sooner.

Deliberate faking of evidence, truly shocking

The report says that the fans were not responsible for the people getting killed inside the ground. It also says that the police opened the gate to the stand where folk were killed.

Yes there is an element of semantics to it, but if the gate hadn’t been opened by the police nobody inside the ground would have been killed.

People may have been injured outside the ground if the gate hadn’t been opened, but I doubt any would have been killed given the less confined nature of the space.

There had been near fatal crushes previously at that stadium in that stand.

There was probably no single error that lead to people being killed, more a chain of bad decisions.

For gawds sake, people don’t have to push for pressure to build up in a crowd, particularly in a bottleneck, particularly not down a one-in-six descent into a caged pen.

For gawds sake, people don’t have to push for pressure to build up in a crowd, particularly in a bottleneck, particularly not down a one-in-six descent into a caged pen.

yep humans – crap design, of the myriad of factors that day I don’t think that’s one you can pin on the SYP, question is, can you pin it on humans?

not so sure now

Crowds are crowds. If you have moving crowds moving through tight spaces, you need to control them. The police lost control. There is blame to be ascribed there, to me it’s self evident.

And there’s wider blame ascribable to anyone involved in letting the game happen in that ground. It was a deathtrap. Ask Spurs fans from 1981, or Fulham fans from 1975, or any others who had frightening crushes in that end (Here’s footage from 1981:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0)

SYP were the ones with responsibility for crowd control, though, and there was so much more they could and should have done. Instead they were covering their own arses before people had finished dying.

BBC just announced that Thatcher had been briefed that South Yorks police were lying.

I wonder what action she took?

(sorry if I get a bit defensive here, as a football fan I’ve often despaired at how much the lies and misinformation have stuck with so many people)

Worth pointing out that a similar crush occurred in the 1981 FA semi-final, at the same end of the same ground. That wasn’t fatal because the pen was not divided up and people could spread out, the police also allowed the Spurs fans involved out onto the pitch in that instance. The stadium wasn’t used for FA cup semi-finals from 82-87 for that reason. Then in 1987 there was a bad crush involving Leeds fans, again in the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough, in another FA cup semi final. Lessons were learned from this and the 1988 semi-final was policed well to avoid a crush. Unfortunately the commanding officer who had taken charge of the ’87 and ’88 finals was removed shortly before the 1989 semi-final, and the new officer completely changed the policing plans. The stadium also did not have a valid safety certificate.

I’d say blaming the police for a car crash in which they had no part is not really the right analogy. It’s more like blaming the police for a crash if they had organised a coach trip, open to the public, on a bus that they knew had dodgy brakes, and had then putting a learner driver in the driving seat, then that the driver had been talking on his mobile and not looking at the road.

I don’t understand how they know 164 police statements were altered or rewritten – statements would have been hand written at the time, so if they were altered, surely the originals would have been destroyed with no record of its existence?

I’m confused, does anyone know where this stat came from and how it is known to be true?

Oh, and to continue the analogy, certain people in this thread are blaming fans for the crash because they climbed onto the coach, thinking it was safe.

Exactly, it’s peoples fault, the police were there to try and prevent it but failed. Blaming the police for it happening is like blaming them for a bad car crash, they’re supposed to try and prevent them but it’s one of the drivers fault, unfortunately the innocent guy in the other car dies as well.

Oh dear.

The most tragic thing i have ever read, that whole period was a dark time for football – there was a well documented and active booze and fighting culture. However, Hillsborough was, and now publically, is a complete cover up which makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach. I remember the day vividly as I was listening to the game on the radio, then the TV pictures came through and….I dunno. Dusty. Nobody wins.

willber – Member
I don’t understand how they know 164 police statements were altered or rewritten – statements would have been hand written at the time, so if they were altered, surely the originals would have been destroyed with no record of its existence?

I’m confused, does anyone know where this stat came from and how it is known to be true?

its all here …

2.11.1 As discussed in Part 1, statements made by South Yorkshire Police (SYP) officers in the form of handwritten recollections of their experiences on the day of the disaster underwent an unprecedented process of review and alteration before their submission to the official inquiry.

2.11.2 On the authority of the Chief Constable this process was conducted by a small team of officers managed by Chief Superintendent Donald Denton in consultation with Peter Metcalf, a senior partner in the SYP solicitors, Hammond Suddards. Although widely known to those directly involved in the inquiries and investigations, the process only became public knowledge following submissions to the Stuart-Smith Scrutiny and their subsequent analysis.[1]

2.11.3 Focusing on the material disclosed to the Panel, and in response to requests by bereaved families, this chapter revisits the initiation, operation and results of the review and alteration of SYP officers’ statements. It also considers the adoption of a similar process by the South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service (SYMAS). The wider consequences of the review and alteration process are discussed in Chapter 6.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/main-section/part-2/chapter-11/page-1/

as I understand it the hand written statements were kept but the typed up copies for the initial report had been heavily edited, the report website is very detailed and contains some really horrific testimony

I’m confused, does anyone know where this stat came from and how it is known to be true?

It comes from the Scrutiny of Lord Justice Stuart Smith which was presented to the Hillsborough Independent Panel.

The police not only directed fans into the overcrowded pen. They refused to act to release them on to the pitch refused to let ambulances in to treat the injured . Generated a pack of lies to pass the blame on to fans and then conspired to pervert the course of justice by presenting false evidence to the inquest . It’s only like blaming them for a bad car crash if the analogy states the negligent driver was a police man and his colleges try and fit up the innocent victim.

it’s peoples fault, the police were there to try and prevent it but failed. Blaming the police for it happening is like blaming them for a bad car crash, they’re supposed to try and prevent them but it’s one of the drivers fault, unfortunately the innocent guy in the other car dies as well.

Thats a bad anaology

Its not hard to see that if you have lots of people and you open a gate down a slope into a botttleneck and then a closed pen that you will get a build up of pressure or a crush. I am not quite sure it is a fundamental law of nature but u suspect[ given those circumstances it will happen whether you use football fas, nuns or the Maasai. If I did this with water the same thing would happen but I could not blame the water for filling the vessel. People have to be there to crush people but they did not cause it nor did their behaviour exacerbate it. Sadly the Police actions did and they knew this hence why they covered up.

igm – Member
BBC just announced that Thatcher had been briefed that South Yorks police were lying.
I wonder what action she took?

Among the new documents released on Wednesday was a memo from a senior civil servant to Baroness Thatcher about the interim report into the tragedy by Lord Justice Taylor.
She was told the August 1989 report had found that the chief superintendent in charge at Hillsborough had “behaved in an indecisive fashion” and senior officers had infuriated the judge by seeking to “duck all responsibility when giving evidence” to his inquiry.
The memo made it clear that Mr Hurd thought South Yorkshire Chief Constable Peter Wright would have to resign, adding: “The enormity of the disaster, and the extent to which the inquiry blames the police, demand this.”
And it added: “The defensive, and at times close to deceitful, behaviour by the senior officers in South Yorkshire sounds depressingly familiar. Too many senior policemen seem to lack the capacity or character to perceive and admit faults in their organisation.”
The report, the memo added, would “sap confidence in the police force” and could encourage aggressive behaviour by fans who would feel “vindicated” by its conclusions.
But in a handwritten note, Mrs Thatcher made it clear that she did not want to give the government’s full backing to Lord Taylor’s criticisms, only to the way in which he had conducted his inquiry and made recommendations for action.
She wrote: “What do we mean by ‘welcoming the broad thrust of the report’? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations – M.T.“

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19574492

Brave move suggesting the Liverpool fans might have also contributed to the situation. Didn’t the head of Merseyside Police suggest this at the time?

Brave? Why is it brave? Surely it’s just wrong, as explained by the report released today?

Blame them for the cover up, fine.
Blame them for not making perfect decisions, fine.
Blame them for other peoples actions?

I think you are utterly wrong about this..

Crowd control is an important and tricky job.. large crowds don’t work in quite the same way as queues at the post office, or polite conversations over a glass of milk in the refectory..
There is momentum and dynamism and a heightening of the senses, with the possibility of panic.. It’s herd-like and can be dangerous, if not controlled correctly..

This is a well known phenomenon and there is a whole branch of psychology concerned with making studies to determine what makes the behaviour of the crowd differ from the behaviour of the individuals within it..

The crowd was not controlled correctly, and in fact, this crowd was sent into an extremely dangerous, and indeed, lethal situation..

Saw this Tweet earlier, just located it again, from BBC News;

“RT @danroan: MacKenzie apologised for Sun yrs ago but in ’06 said: “I only did that because Murdoch told me to. I wasn’t sorry then I’m not sorry now…””

Says it all about the Scum, really…

The cover up is unforgivable.

The worse part is

These deficiencies were well known and further overcrowding problems at the turnstiles in 1987 and on the terrace in 1988 were additional indications of the inherent dangers to crowd safety. The risks were known and the crush in 1989 was foreseeable.

Unfortunately it reads like most inquiries into a disaster or accident with countless warning signs ignored in many cases well before the incident. Yes the police should accept blame for their actions and the cover up however the situation that caused it also needs addressing.

As with most the tabloid press will pick headlines based on their own reasons.
Blame Police
Blame Tories
Blame Thatcher
Weasel out of what we previously said

In the end 96 people are still dead.
Football and other events with huge crowds are much safer now.

116 police statements or “recollections” modified out of 116 under the direct instruction of senior officers and advisement of their legal teams.

SW not meeting the required safety standards for ocer 10 years.

Central government being aware of a coverup.

The media now trying to apologise.

Personally the most dispicable parties in all of this are the media. Specifically Kelvin MacKenzie, not only the what he reporte but the way in which for years he refuse to apologise and levied the blame on others and today tries to change his colours.

The police speciaically Donald Denton and his legal team representative peter Metcalf for orchestrating the coverup. Also allowing SW to continue knowing the ground was unsafe. Also for attempting to impugn the dead by trawling through criminal records and blood tests on the decease for alcohol, including the children.

Central government for a succession of failures to see through the smoke and MTFU and let this travesty continue so long.

Money was involved in SW not wanting to upgrade the stands, the police protecting their jobs and politicians keeping theirs also. Greed by a few who could have stood up and been counted but decided to try and sully the names of football fans who died.

There may now be a full and proper enquiry now that the truth is available and we know that whatever these individuals say are lies.

23 years.

I only hope that those responsible are now brought to justice for their personal failings.

Despite what anyone thinks of Liverpool the families have acted with dignity despite the tragedy and lies about their lost loved ones.

There are some people tonight who will sleep better in their beds. And the guilty who won’t be sleeping so easily now the levels of lies and deception have been uncovered.

I know very little about footie and the culture surrounding it, despite growing up in Aberdeen and seeing at first hand, some of the worst football related violence on record, as a young lad knocking about the mean streets of the granite city. I suffered at the hands of the ASC and grew up very fast.

But come on. “Pens”, “Control”, “Herding”. These are terms usually applied to sheep. If human beings are behaving like animals, why should we be surprised when tragedy occurs as a direct result of hundreds of humans trying to beat the living daylights out of hundreds of other human beings?

I’m a passionate person, but I really don’t get it. I never will.

My point is, that if violence had never been allowed to become an accepted part, nay, glorified necessity, of the beautiful game, the horrible events which took place that day might never have happened. The middle class dad going to a match with his son feels pride in his ‘firm’s’ achievements and its ability to protect him and his kin – I believe this – I may be mistaken.

The cover up is almost incedental. It’s human nature to pass the buck. Yes, it’s horrifying and strays into the territory of conspiracy theories, but as many have said ^^^ it’s hardly surprising.

Sorry if anything I’ve said upsets anyone.

wow – user removed.. 😯

I think that maybe you have completely the wrong end of the stick, have you ever heard of the Hillsborough disaster before now.. !?

Do you have any idea of the circumstances surrounding the incident..? Of the nature of the disaster..?

It had nothing to do with hooliganism, no fighting or violence occurred.. at all
This was to do with overcrowding and as written earlier in the thread, it could just as easily have happened to schoolchildren or nuns.. the fact that they were football supporters is completely irrelevant in this case..

Your ignorant and prejudiced remarks are offensive in the extreme

Well after listening to a snippet of the report on the BBC it’s hard to understand that in its initial form the inquiry seems to have it so wrong.
I’m unsure what exactly the families and parents of those that suffered really do want after all these years.
.

It had nothing to do with hooliganism, no fighting or violence occurred.. at all

The incident itself didn’t however as mentioned in the report the police saw “trouble” as the biggest problem. The legacy of football violence meant that that was what was perceived as the greatest threat despite the top brass telling them it was public safety.

No one event was the cause a series of events conspired to produce this. The events on the day could have gone differently but the history that lead up to it contributed to the police missing the real threat.

It had nothing to do with hooliganism, no fighting or violence occurred.. at all
This was to do with overcrowding and as written earlier in the thread, it could just as easily have happened to schoolchildren or nuns.. the fact that they were football supporters is completely irrelevant in this case..

Your ignorant and prejudiced remarks are offensive in the extreme

Nuns or schoolchildren don’t have a history of violent behaviour at football matches. The Police didn’t open the gate ’cause they wanted people to die, they wanted the fans inside the ground to watch the football. The cover-up was appalling I agree, but some blame must go to the late arriving fans.

If you think the comments above are:

ignorant and prejudiced remarks are offensive in the extreme

then I bet you’ve never been to a football match in your life.

timc – Member
D0nk = C*nt

Do everyone a favour & read up you little pr!ck

That’s not a nun speaking is it?

User removed. This had **** all to do with hooliganism. I suggest you go and read the report, listen to what has been said for so many years by the families and eye witnesses about what happened that day. Then come back and apologise for your ill informed and prejudiced post.
I remember coming back from the old Wembley many times from a range of events from football, music and American football and the push of the crowd to get through the tunnel into the tube station and onto the platform was always bloody scary. When you’re on the overcrowded platform and the mass of people moving forward means those at the front are clinging on to not be pushed onto the track it’s very easy to see how this sort of thing happens.

It’s interesting to note that yesterday provided a very rare example of complete unanimity in Parliament between politicians of all political hues, which was also reflected throughout the media, but here on STW, herberts who of course know better than any expert on an independent investigative panel, want to endlessly argue the toss over this truly tragic event. How predictable 😐

What this thread needs is Lanesra. He’ll be out there somewhere giving it his balanced view on things.

I’m unsure what exactly the families and parents of those that suffered really do want after all these years

They’ve known for 23 years that a huge coverup had occurred over the death of their loved ones, by people protecting their own backsides (and pensions). What would you want? I’d want to fight and fight and fight.

but some blame must go to the late arriving fans.

Do you know there were so few turnstiles at the Leppings Lane end that the required entry rate, per turnstile, was 1443 per hour, versus a Green Guide maximum of 750? The crowd had built up long, long before “late”

I mean, seriously, two and a half seconds per person, per turnstile!

Unfortunately for some reason, some people continue to cling to the myths created by the authorities and parts of the media at the time, despite higher authorities, who have nothing to gain from doing so, now acknowledging them to be lies, and part of a huge cover up.

As ormondroyd says, the fans were not “arriving late”, the report deals with this. They had arrived long before the game, however the turnstiles were inadequate, and some of the crowd control measures that had been used outside, on the Leppings Lane to moderate the flow of people to the turnstiles the year before were removed, leading to much of the crowd arriving at the turnstiles at the same time, which actually slowed down ingress.

And before someone else who has no idea what they are talking about mentions ticketless fans, the report states that CCTV footage of the time shows that the number of fans at the ground was about the same as the number of tickets sold, and the that the stand was clearly under capacity at the time of the crush, the side pens were still almost empty as all the fans were directed into the central pen. No doubt there were one or two among the tens of thousands who tried to get in without tickets, as at any other football match, but this played no significant part in the tragedy.

its amazing that so many people are regurgitating the falsehoods put out by the police

it just like discussions on here about john charles de memezes jumping the barrier etc

lies put out by the police and allowed to circulate in the media become fact

borris johnson was happy to use them again in his attack on liverpool

even thatcher knew the police had covered it up and wanted it repressed

“What do we mean by ‘welcoming the broad thrust of the report’? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations – M.T.”

again we see the dangers of the press/police/politicians cabal

I’m unsure what exactly the families and parents of those that suffered really do want after all these years

They will hopefully get (some sense of)closure.

Lets not forget why the Liverpool fans made an easy target for the authorities. At a time all fans were considered scum,Heysel had given Liverpool fans an especially bad name,and I have always wondered if this led to changes in the way that the police set out to “manage” the Liverpool fans

Watched it all unfold on large screens in an electrical shop in Sheffield, Mrs Cat was hauled into work to help with the casualties (Nurse at the time), horrific to watch but not surprising in the least.

Also, not at all surprised by Thatcher’s response to the original enquiry, the Police were used as her storm troops for almost a decade before in and around South Yorkshire, she would want to protect them.

I was just thinking the same thing last night roger, about Thatchers reaction.

You have to see it in the light of the relationship between the police and working class people (who made up the majority of footie fans) In northern England, at the time

The police, as deployed by Thatcher, during the riots and miners strike were little more than a state militia. Hired thugs on premium overtime. Who viewed most of the public as ‘the enemy’.

Thatcher was never going to do anything to upset her troops, whatever they did. And justice, in any of its forms, is an abstract concept to her anyway

Shifter – Member

If you think the comments above are:
ignorant and prejudiced remarks are offensive in the extreme
then I bet you’ve never been to a football match in your life.

It’s a very emotive subject is all, and I admit that I got a bit carried away.. It was this little gem that really got up my nose.. as it seemed that perhaps the fella was commenting on a very sensitive subject that he had absolutely no idea about..

why should we be surprised when tragedy occurs as a direct result of hundreds of humans trying to beat the living daylights out of hundreds of other human beings?

not really relevant to the event in question now is it pal..?

FWIW, my Grandad, without doubt the mildest and kindest man I’ve met, took me to my first footie match.. Exeter City Vs Millwall in the late 70s early 80s, making me around 6 or 7 years old.. we left before the half time whistle as the atmosphere was too hostile..