Heart rate puzzle

How are you measuring your HR?

Garmin chest strap to Garmin Edge 530.

Fatigue could cause this. It doesn't always mean a higher heart rate.

Up until June I hadn't had a day off the bike and my max heart rate even during hard efforts wouldn't go above 165. I had 10 days of on holiday came back and can once again hit HRs in the high 170s low 180s along with a lower resting HR. Basically I have more of a range to play with.

That depends how much you are actually riding though.

Thanks.
I had considered fatigue, as I first noticed it on holiday, riding big climbs every day.
However, it seems just as likely to occur when well-rested. On Saturday I hadn't ridden since last Sunday, so 5 days off, and it still happened.

I’d second fatigue, and also add that it may be you are anxious and getting anxiety fatigue in the background. Both of which can cap your hr.

Fatigue, illness, overtraining did this for me - I appreciate it here may be other causes.

5 days might not be enough if you are in a bit of a fatigue hole

I have a similar set up to you; Garmin HR and 520 plus. Have you changed the battery at all? My HR strap was quite sensitive to it, and started to give very weird readings as the battery died. In fact I recently just ditched my old strap and replaced it. (It was at least 5 years and pretty manky) It might be worth worth checking?

I got this after the covid vaccine (Moderna ‘cos I is hipster) and I’ve got it again after finally getting Covid, but it lasted a couple of weeks not two years.
A couple of the other cycling coaches had a similar experience - you didn’t pick up covid back at the beginning by any chance?

For info, I’m a couple of years older than you with a similar max heart rate - someone is bound to say 220-46=174 in a minute, but ignore them unless you served in the US Army in the 50s.

PS - a dodgy HR monitor is equally likely.

5 days might not be enough if you are in a bit of a fatigue hole

Just to reiterate this, if you are overtrained or suffering from proper fatigue, it might be a few *weeks* to recover.

it was five days after the White Rose Classic, so maybe. 5 days ought to be enough though surely?

Anxiety could well be a thing. I do struggle a little with stress and anxiety and this HR thing seems to be more likely when i'm nervous about the ride, eg race, big sportive, very tough ride with faster riders. It does seem to happen on totally innocuous rides as well, even an evening turbo session, but maybe that's because I'm feeling anxious about other things.

Conversely, I first noticed this on holiday where i'm very relaxed. Possibly i'm tense about unfamiliar roads, getting back on time etc but it doesn't seem stressful.

"I’ve got it again after finally getting Covid"

I first noticed this well before covid. However, I had nasty reactions to vaccines 2 and 3, fever etc for maybe a week. I had a bad cold/flu in May, tested negative for covid, but might well have been.

I don't think it's an issue with the HRM. I can feel the extra effort, and all numbers are low for the ride, power and speed, not just HR.

If you are doing regular z4+ intervals, your body could have simply adapted to deal with lactate better and so your heart rate isn't spiralling out of control.

https://intervals.icu/ (donate-ware) made me aware that my LTHR was higher than I thought by ~10bpm and rides look to back up that higher figure.

Over training / CNS fatigue can stop you reaching high HRs or possibly something else if going on which is affecting you eg virus / some form of long covid. NB My fitness seems to have tanked post Covid, feel normal in every other way.

Thanks everyone for your contributions.

it really doesn't feel like a positive training effect. I'm pushing hard, breathing hard, waiting for a raised HR to deliver what my muscles need and it just doesn't happen, so i have to back off the effort. feels rubbish. power is down both in the hard efforts and across a whole ride too.

what do you think about sleep? That's my latest theory. On holiday I sleep badly, just because it's not home, and we drink alcohol most evenings. the night before a big ride, i won't drink alcohol of course, but I might have disturbed sleep, or might have a very early start.

I mostly sleep quite well but probably only six hours, 12-6am. I'm planning to try a few weeks of earlier bed and see if this makes any difference.

If anything, I would expect your heartrate to be above what you expect to see as a result of stress or lack of sleep rather than below. For instance, I can predict pretty accurately if I'm run-down or about the get the signs of a cold because my resting HR goes from 48-49 into the high 50's or even into the low 60's

You mention a max HR of 196 - just checking... is that measured during cycling, or another sport?
My HR will go much higher when running, than cycling and you can't use them interchangeably.

Probably not helping but I experienced similar post-Covid. No matter how much I tried, I couldn't raise my HR as high as it had been. Two years on and that seems to be resolved, though fitness is down overall regardless of my efforts to restore it. Long Covid or just age-related? Don't know.

47 here I havent been training (as in regular structured) for the last few years.

Up until the age of about 45 I would achieve high mask heart rates, then its just appeared to fall off. In reality as Ive got that bit older I have become less interested in structured training and HR output, but I would say over the last 4 years my max HR has dropped from high 180's to now mid 170's.

+ what you say about working hard ie lungs and legs, yet heart rate relatively low. I've had that a few times since the start of COVID and have put it down to COVID. Ive only had COVID once (positive test) but maybe it was the jabs or having had COVID in the past without realising.

"I would expect your heartrate to be above what you expect to see as a result of stress or lack of sleep rather than below." That's what I've read too, but I guess we're all different.

"You mention a max HR of 196 – just checking… is that measured during cycling, or another sport?"
It's on the bike, that was Sept 2020. I reached 194 on the turbo in Feb this year. I got to 192 only 2 weeks ago. These are 5 sec maximums from Training Peaks.

It's not a constant thing, but effects one ride and maybe not the next, so it makes me think it's something happening in the days before the ride, rather than a long-term trend, like aging.

Might be worth getting a heart rate monitor/ app that looks at Heart Rate Variability, sleep and how quickly you recover from the effort, i have found HRV a good indicator of fatigue and when to take it a bit easier.

I'd be trying another heart rate monitoring device.

Either as a replacement for the current set up or, preferably, as a duplicate so you can be more certain that this is a real thing :o)

Thanks again.

Scud - my Garmin watch does HRV, stress levels etc. I take it with a big pinch of salt. Only occasionally matches up with how i feel. I've never considered HRV as connected to recovery though, thought it was only about stress, as in the mental/anxiety kind.

surprised no-one has said i need to sign up for a whoop band. (not likely).

JAG - am very sure it's not a HRM issue as I feel it too. for a given perceived effort, everything is low, power and speed too. If it is a data-collection issue, then i would expect power and speed to be as normal, with HR low. in short, I'd feel great on those days. I'd kid myself it was training effect - same power for lower HR. Instead, it's low HR, low power, high perceived effort.

Another one suffering the same from Covid.

Just starting my 4th week after being clear of virus infection and things are improving, but the rev limiter is still 15bpm lower than where it should be. Theres just a wall I can't push through.

Just a thought, looking at my own recent ride history, have you suddenly increased the duration and frequency of longer rides?

Over the last three days I've ridden daily for a total of ~7.5 hours, having ridden everyday since 2nd Nov, but a quick look at my log suggests the last time I did three consecutive days of a 1.5hr+ ride was back in late March. My legs were dead on Saturday and one short interval killed them last night, they are used to most days being 30-60mins, making z2/3 over the weekend feel much harder than normal.

Scud – my Garmin watch does HRV, stress levels etc. I take it with a big pinch of salt. Only occasionally matches up with how i feel. I’ve never considered HRV as connected to recovery though, thought it was only about stress, as in the mental/anxiety kind.

HRV is more about how reactive your heart is and how ready it is to undertake strain, a fatigued heart like other muscles, becomes a bit lazy when overworked, so pulse becomes more regular with less activity and variance in the beats, a heart ready to go and feeling fresh, is a lot more reactive to a work load, and there is a great variance in the gaps between the beats showing it is constantly adapting, and ready for a work load. (as far as i understand it)

The other thing to look at is not just how high your heart rate goes, but more how quick your recovery is, so when you have taken it up to zone 4/5, how quickly you come back down to zone 1/2 after the effort, as if you are fatigued, not only will heart not want to reach upper levels, it will also be a lot slower to come back down again.

Also, if you are spending too much time in higher zones you'll probably be overdoing it. I've found building lower zone training in has helped my CV fitness a lot cos it allows the system to recover properly. I try to pay attention to my watch recovery suggestions and this has helped too, backing off on intensity when it shows i'm overdoing it.

Might be worth taking a look at https://crickles.casa/navigator/ which can give you some guidance on potential issues with heart rate.

"The other thing to look at is not just how high your heart rate goes, but more how quick your recovery is, so when you have taken it up to zone 4/5, how quickly you come back down to zone 1/2 after the effort, "

It plummets. If I can coax it up to 170 for a hard climb, then as soon as I reach the top and want to push on, on the flat, it just drops away down to maybe 130-135, whereas "normally" i would expect it to go down to maybe 165 and stay there for a bit. It just wants to sit at 130-140 and objects to anything higher, doing the bare minimum before going back to that low level.

Haven't been doing loads of higher zone work, in fact wondered if that's the problem, though i doubt it. My riding is all fairly mixed i think. Longer 4+ hour rides with hard efforts every few minutes (it's Yorkshire so shitty surfaces at 20%+). Turbo sessions twice a week maybe, with some 3-5 minute hard efforts. Not at either extreme of intensity or endurance really.

I had this when I played football as a 20 year old whilst on Beta blockers. Max hr was stupidly low, 130s. Last quarter of a game was excruciating.

When my hrm dies it tends to drop off completely and quicker than you describe.

20+ years later I still don’t get above 165 but that must be my physiology.
If anything, after Covid my HR raised slightly.

You had posted the other week about regular fainting and you were under the care of a cardiologist. Have they got a view on this ? Maybe part of the jigsaw ?

Firstly would agree on all comments related to fatigue, overtraining and lack of recovery, late 40’s was when i noticed my heart rate would be depressed after a few days hard riding or if not recovered.

Also would recommend looking at the crickles website, will highlight any potential AF from your heart rate history.

Like above, sounds like overtraining.

Maybe you need to try more low intensity stuff.
At this time of year, with the heat and humidity, it’s crazy to do anything more strenuous than cruising on the bike.

Hows the sleep?

As for the covid thing, it may be worth splashing out the £5 on one of those oxygen meters that clip onto your thumb.

I’ve got a fairly cheap version on my ‘Fitbit’ and there’s still a fair bit of variability (anything between 94 to 99%) without necessarily feeling unwell.

Globally, it’s going to take years to comprehend the full extent of what covid has done to our bodies.

Total speculation, but there may be some kind of Circadian effect going on.

Maybe your body is shunting a load of blood to your gut, to assist with digestion, or to your kidneys too.
Afaik, it takes the human body more energy to digest celery than it gets from actually eating it.

Maybe your body is too busy replenishing your bone/ muscle mass from all the training?

Maybe you need longer gaps between the high-intensity workouts, combined with some subtle alterations to your diet. More citrus’y curries?

Just circling back on this, any thoughts from the medical team ?

Just echoing what Iainc has said above.

Without alarmimg you my symptoms sounded very similar to yours. I know watches as HRM aren't very correct but I could be absolutely blowing up and have to lie down at the top of a hill and my HR would be reading 150bpm max.

Currently in hospital recovering from an aortic valve replacement and a ascending aortic root replacement.

Might be worth getting checked out properly mate.

Just had a letter from cardiologist re my fainting etc.

After a 7 day ECG and an echocardiogram, it seems I have a slight arrhythmia, and am leaking from two valves. And I’m still fainting.

Apparently cardiologist says this is all good, fine and normal, so I’m not even getting another appointment to discuss this. Just discharged.

FFS, go directly back to the cardiologist, do not pass go, do not collect £200.

Leaky valves, arrhythmia, fainting and now an inability to get it up...

Did you tell the cardiologist about the change in heart rate response, or even that you are actually fairly active (seriously, a mate "forgot" to mention he runs half a dozen ultra marathons a year when he was at the doctors complaining of endless pins and needles in his extremities.)

My valve was leaking quote badly and this was the cause of me feeling knackered and light headed all the time.

I would seriously be back at the cardiologist door

Just an update on this.

Original issues were postural hypotension/syncope, and strong reluctance on the part of my heart to increase its rate to match the demands of my muscles ("blunting").

Over the summer i noticed that as it became harder to reach higher heart rates (maxing at 155-160bpm, no matter what power i was doing, against a 2022 true max of c196bpm) the syncope became less frequent and seemed to have gone away. Fed up with the inability to ride hard, i had about five weeks off riding. when i returned, my heart rate reacted quickly, as normal, was able to get to 185 easily, could get to 190 every few rides. However, the syncope came back very strongly and frequently.

So back under cardiology. Tilt table went badly. didn't react immediately like at home, but had a full scale faint at 6 minutes with blood pressure drop and tachycardia. test was abandoned.

Tomorrow i have an exercise stress test.

Hope it goes well for you, glad to see you're under medical care now though.

Edit - I didn't read the age of this post and see it has been updated...so ignore my chat as it appears to have been covered by others.

Good luck with the stress test. Fingers crossed you get some answers.