Have we done "the decline of Nadal" yet?

*disclaimer – I don’t really watch tennis, I have only a passing knowledge*

After yesterday’s defeat to the qualifier Dustin Brown, the BBC are running the article “Decline of a great: What is wrong with Nadal“

maybe it’s me being a little suspicious but there’s a nagging doubt in my mind that there may be an external reason for the “decline”, that’s in some way related to Operation Puerto and tainted sausage meat and all that. Or am I wrong, and it’s not that he’s no longer doped to the eyeballs and suffering because of the lack of “extra”?

Steak shortage. 🙂

Actually, when he was in his pomp, a few commentators and knowledgeable folk said that he was punishing his body so hard that they wondered if he would be able to maintain anything like that level over a longer career, compared with someone like Federer, who was and is perpetually smooth and controlled.

You’re wrong, clearly the Guys knackered.

It happens, look at all the Champs/No1’s who’ve been at the top of their Game for the last 9/10 years.

He needs a rest, a few beers and a surfboard IMO.

after yesterdays result, I remembered reading some “Steak” based stuff online* a few years ago about Nadal. Went and dug it out again. TBH I’m not convinced, there’s no real reason he cant be great AND inconsistent.

Google “The Curious Case of Rafael Nadal” if you are interested in JHJ style sports journalism.

Im with Andy Murray on this one, definitely fishy

a few commentators and knowledgeable folk said that he was punishing his body so hard that they wondered if he would be able to maintain anything like that level over a longer career, compared with someone like Federer, who was and is perpetually smooth and controlled.

This.

Played too many tournaments, every point like it was his last, hit every ball 100%, and always had problems with his knees.

Sad to see, an awesome player, truly humble in defeat as well. Lots of people accuse him PED use, but there’s no evidence AFAIA.

Its got a lot tougher in the last few years with other players raising their game but I definitely have a nagging doubt with regards to performance enhancement. He’s always been a bit inconsistent but a few years ago he’d have occasional dips, these days he seems to have occasional peaks. As mentioned, he doesn’t play in a way conducive to a long term career so it might just be that.

Worth watching this from yesterdays game: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/33365887 I think anyone would have struggled against most of these although I think old Nadal would’ve got a few of them

Could be – seems like he’s certainly benefited from advances in ‘racquet technology’ in his career.

But what reason would he have for stopping? Seems like there’s tacit acceptance of it in tennis, and everyone (fans / players / governing body) is happy with the status quo.

His whole game was based on aggression, reaching the unreachable balls, generating massive power at full stretch from the knees and shoulders. There was very little subtlety in his game.

I find it totally plausible that even a small reduction in his ability to push himself so hard could have a big impact on his performance.

Nothing to do with Dustin Brown playing out of his skin then?

One thing I did notice, compared to Brown he was sweating like a small nun at a penguin shoot.

Don’t have an opinion for or against but there doesn’t need to be any more reason than normal/natural causes to explain it.

Nothing to do with Dustin Brown playing out of his skin then?

This. Brown couldn’t give a sh1t and just went for it – best game I’ve seen in years, good for him.
MrsSB not happy as apparently Nadal has nice legs 🙄

His game was smashing the ball so hard the opponent couldn’t return it. His ability to do that had diminished so opponents can get more balls back
He’s not able to adapt his game to the subtle shots Brown was playing but hats off to Brown he played some ridiculous shots. Great game.

Pat Cash made an interesting point: Nadal’s swing is so complicated that if his game is only slightly off, he won’t get the consistent depth he needs which allows his opponent to dominate.

That said, I found his comeback from serious injury to winning slams about 3 minutes later to be eyebrow-raising to say the least.

Check out his record on Grass vs his record on hard court or clay.

I think his last 4 performances at Wimbledon have seen him being beaten by similarly lowly (relatively) players. His past four Wimbledons:

2012, loses to world number 100
2013: loses to number 135
2014: loses to number 144
2015: loses to number 102

BUT…the top spin forehand that Nadal has used to massive effect before, is steadily getting less fierce.

im glad his out, OCD means he takes 3 hours on every serve, commentators wheeling out “uncle Tony” lines every 30 seconds

Didn’t The Judge in the Puerto case surpress the naming of other athletes/clients? But it was reported that Footballers and Tennis players on the list? I am sure I remember reading Brazilian footballers playing for top Spanish teams – Barca Real? – And top Spanish Tennis players named in the investigation as clients. I can only think of 3 top Spanish tennis players.

If you go with what has been ‘reported’ then Mo Farrah is a cheat too?.

I think it is a combination of things.

If you look at Nadal’s physique, early on in his career he gained a lot of muscle mass in a short period of time. Basically he has a physique that no other player has had in the history of tennis and it is questionable whether this is possible without drugs. He has also bounced back from injury quicker than many other players.

Also as others have mentioned and I have believed all along, his game is very hard on the body, meaning he is knackered at the age of 29.

Lastly the most important factor is the mental one. Nadal has always been able to bounce back from injury and go and win the French, regardless of how poor a season he’s had (apart from one year) This time he hasn’t been able to do this and is having the worst run for over ten years.

I don’t buy the swing excuse, his forehand has been the most consistent shot in tennis. Much more to do with his head than his swing.

So a combination of lack of steroids, hgh and things to give him that little ‘extra,’ a knackered body and mentally not being in the right place.

Edit: Brown played a great match, but an in form nadal would have passed him much more often coming into net. He was missing forehands that I have never seen him miss in ten years of watching him as a player.

there were always a lot of question marks for me around Nadal’s unbelievable strength, missed drug test, heavy use of stuff like Platelet Replacement Therapy (people are still arguing over whether this is / can be a cover for doping and is / should be banned), and Lance-levels of fitness.

also the unbelievably poor drug testing regime. clearly this blog has an angle, but still – the ITF went 2 years without conducting a single out of competition blood test on any player. Lots of mental stats here-

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/itf-doping-control-blood-tests-2005.html The door was wide open.

but like others, i reckon his decline now is more due to pushing his body so hard for so long. His main tactic was brute force, and his ability to play longer and harder than anyone else. That can’t last.

early on in his career he gained a lot of muscle mass in a short period of time. Basically he has a physique that no other player has had in the history of tenni

ah yes that was the other thing. he did all this while insisting in interviews that he didn’t do weights, didn’t really go to the gym, and it was all just from playing lots of tennis 😕

hey ho.

He needs a rest, a few beers and a surfboard IMO.

Brown played a blinder of a game, some lovely subtle shots.

Nadal has been at the top for 10 years; he’s cream crackered. As mentioned above, his game relied on being in peak physical condition. He’s not looking like it any more, and his game is gone. I don’t particularly buy the drugs angle. His strength / physique doesn’t look superhuman. On a slower court he might still be running and reaching shots.

early on in his career he gained a lot of muscle mass in a short period of time.

ie when he was a teenager?

doris5000 – Member

ah yes that was the other thing. he did all this while insisting in interviews that he didn’t do weights, didn’t really go to the gym, and it was all just from playing lots of tennis

Lots of this sort of thing in sport though- part psychology, part strategy- make your opponents worry, and hide where your advantage comes from.

Missed drug tests?
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/24/chris-froome-missed-drug-test-tour-de-france

Dodgy physiology?
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/04/news/froome-faces-scrutiny-extraterrestrial-dna-test-results_322157

Training with PED tainted types?
http://stevetilford.com/2014/08/05/froome-skipping-tenerife-to-train-with-levi-in-california/

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/04/news/froome-faces-scrutiny-extraterrestrial-dna-test-results_322157

I hope you noticed the date on that article before you posted it 😉

He has a freakish style with his weight further back that other players and a huge swing that imparts about 50% more topspin on the ball that other top players, like Federer.

It’s a bit like those shots-to-nothing you play when you haven’t managed to get to the ball before the second bounce and you ‘whip-it-up’ back across the net as a frustrated gesture, except that he plays those shots all the time.

Hence why his knees have suffered.

Pat Cash is right about the technical side of it, but I think the lack of confidence is probably the biggest thing though – look at all the double faults he was hitting, he knew a substandard serve would be rammed down his throat and choked on his serves – if he had a lot of aggression (which might be a drugs thing…) then he wouldn’t choke like that.

Maybe if he had lasted a few more rounds the confidence would have returned – even though Wimbledon bounces higher than it used to it is still a non-natural surface for a clay court player with such as extreme grip.

Finding a player on a streak like that didn’t help.

I barely noticed it. The point is, you can associate anyone with drugs with a quick google.
Nadal is a naturally strong, physical bloke for a tennis player. The pic above is a bit…..cherry picked.

To sayu he can’t get in that kind of shape without PEDs is way wide of the mark.
Murray packed on LOADS of muscle in a very short space of time in recent years.

To sayu he can’t get in that kind of shape without PEDs is way wide of the mark.
Murray packed on LOADS of muscle in a very short space of time in recent years.

Sure you can get in that kind of shape without PED’s, having awesome genetics.

The issue arises when someone is in that kind of shape and playing a sport which is essentially a mix of strength and massive endurance (4-5 hour matches for weeks)

If you look at Murrary and Djokovic they are in great shape and yes Murray has put on muscle, but no-one in the history of the game has been as muscular as Nadal.

You just don’t see athletes competing in endurance sports with Nadal’s physique, hence the question over PED’s.

Tsonga is bigger than Nadal. He’s not as defined, but I’d bet he carries more muscle mass. As you rightly say, genetics play a huge role in muscle but Nadal is nowhere near the category of “awesome genes” (in a muscle sense), certainly not at the point which would arouse suspicion of steroid abuse (IMHO). He’s just a strong bloke. If there were anyone I’d be suspicious of, it would be Serena Williams.

Are you suggesting that proves you can put on lots of muscle without PEDs? 👿

Are you suggesting that proves you can put on lots of muscle without PEDs?

I’m not! Just that pointing a finger at Nadal is easy. Pointing the finger at those closer to home (whilst valid) seems a bit harder.

Tsonga is bigger than Nadal. He’s not as defined, but I’d bet he carries more muscle mass. As you rightly say, genetics play a huge role in muscle but Nadal is nowhere near the category of “awesome genes” (in a muscle sense), certainly not at the point which would arouse suspicion of steroid abuse (IMHO). He’s just a strong bloke. If there were anyone I’d be suspicious of, it would be Serena Williams.

If Nadal is natural (which I highly doubt) he has bloody good genetics for putting on muscle. Not in the league of top bodybuilders in the world, but certainly up the there. More likely is he has been on the gear and GH.

If you can find me a picture of a tennis player with a more muscular physique at a low bodyfat percentage than the one I posted, i’d be surprised.

He certainly had the most impressive physique of any tennis player and I’ve been around enough gyms and followed bodybuilding enough to suspect PED use when I see it.

Serena on the other hand, well she is a genetic freak, but even so, I’d bet she has been hitting the growth hormone pretty hard. Stomach gives it away.

Tennis is not a game where you can maintain muscle mass and low body fat easily, it doesn’t go with the endurance aspect of the sport. Player are either lean and rangey or carrying a bit more muscle and fat, but not both.

You don’t need PEDs to maintain a physique like that. Tennis isn’t road cycling and whilst an endurance sport, requires and trains for an amount of power. I wouldn’t even classify him as a freak.
Look at Jared Graves, champion XC, DH and enduro rider. 85kg and well muscled. Look at the beast in football; happy to believe that he’s not a roider.
IF Nadal is beyond what is capable for a natural athlete (I don’t think he is) then Murray isn’t clean and Williams is doped to the eyeballs.

More suspicious of Martina Navratilova myself :

Serena looks much more feasible

You don’t need PEDs to maintain a physique like that. Tennis isn’t road cycling and whilst an endurance sport, requires and trains for an amount of power.

I agree you don’t in other sports, but tennis is unique in the demands placed on the athletes. http://theconversation.com/fitness-play-off-how-tennis-stars-compare-with-other-athletes-11644

If you look at the physiques of tennis players, they do not generally look like Nadal. He is/was an outliner.

IF Nadal is beyond what is capable for a natural athlete (I don’t think he is) then Murray isn’t clean and Williams is doped to the eyeballs.

Murray isn’t as muscular as Nadal used to be and Serena is probably doped up to the eyeballs.

“It might be time for some fresh blood in the Nadal camp,” McEnroe said on BBC Radio 5 live’s 6-Love-6.

😯

TBF, he was suggesting a new coach 😆

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/33379144

Murray isn’t as muscular as Nadal used to be

Granted but Murray put on a large (unfeasible?) amount of muscle. He’s nowhere near the same starting point, but the transformation (certainly in the timescale) is far more questionable than that of a natural Mesomorph like Nadal.

Serena is probably doped up to the eyeballs.

She looks like a bodybuilder. No question in my mind at all.

Granted but Murray put on a large (unfeasible?) amount of muscle. He’s nowhere near the same starting point, but the transformation (certainly in the timescale) is far more questionable than that of a natural Mesomorph like Nadal.

Nadal is certainly more of a natural mesomorph than Murray, but I think he might have been on the gear since his late teens 😆 Murray might have only started dabbling in the last few years.

It’s always a bit fishy when an athlete gets an injury and comes back much more muscular.

Serena has bigger guns than Rafa 😀

Pretty sure Roger hasn’t been on the gear.

Not so sure he does any more drugs than the majority of his oponents. He has a power game and when that goes a bit he doesnt have much left, bit like Tiger at Golf. He used to out drive everyone and play every hole like it was 10% shorter than the next guy. Having lost that he is just another jobbing pro!