Like many things if you keep treating the symptom, in this case fear and the fact everyone else has guns then you end up with more guns and the problem gets worse. Treat the problem that is gun use and ownership has got out of control and maybe you can fix the issue.

How much is the firearms industry worth to the US tax pot?

In that light, any adult that practiced once a week at a range (which is not unusual among enthusiasts where you can find gun ranges as easily as golf driving ranges) could quite easily be better – which is to say, less awful – than currently serving officers.

The problem with those trained and accurate gun owners isn’t the ability to hit a paper target on a range. The problem is the real world situations where they might be tempted to use that gun isn’t a paper target on a range. They might be good at plinking bullseyes all day long, but the complexities of a shooting / hostage / robbery scenario are way beyond their abilities.

For those looking at statistics for American gun death / crime, have a look at age and race. ISTR that a lot of gun deaths are
a) Old white rural men killing themselves
b) Young black urban males killing each other

They might be good at plinking bullseyes all day long, but the complexities of a shooting / hostage / robbery scenario are way beyond their abilities.

Well, quite. But it doesn’t seem like the cops are any better trained, which is (part of) why there is such a high rate of use of force by US police forces, such a high rate of homicides by police, such a low accuracy rate when police officers do discharge their weapons – and such a high rate of distrust and people thinking they could do better.

and such a high rate of distrust and people thinking they could do better.

Which unfortunately still isn’t a good reason for giving everyone else guns.

Some forces are working hard at conflict resolution training and giving their officers the tools to de-escalate situations without more violence; these are obviously a minority. It’s hard not to escalate a situation when the next step after ‘shouting’ is ‘shooting’ and nothing else to call upon.

My own feelings is that the USA is a strange place. They will allow you to own a weapon with minimal checks, but require you to pass a test to drive a car and you have to be 21 before you can buy an alcoholic drink! To try to compare that to the UK is almost impossible. We share more common social traits with our European neighbours than the USA, but for some reason people think that we are closer to the US because we speak a similar language!

I’m now into my 3rd year of living in the USA and some of the headline stuff is easier to understand after a while. However, most of it does still baffle me!

Hollywoods obsession with guns in movies doesnt help.

It’s not just that. It’s the positive portrayal of righteous violence – in everything from thrillers to rom coms. Not all films do it though, and the difference is quite stark when you start looking out for it.

The problem of course with righteous violence is disagreement as to what constitutes right.

TooTall – Member

The problem with those trained and accurate gun owners isn’t the ability to hit a paper target on a range. The problem is the real world situations where they might be tempted to use that gun isn’t a paper target on a range. They might be good at plinking bullseyes all day long, but the complexities of a shooting / hostage / robbery scenario are way beyond their abilities.

Aye. I’ve known some concealed carryists, and the truth is they were all deep in the western fantasy of quickdrawing and shooting down a bad guy. The reality is, if some dude comes up to you with a gun and the willingness to use it, and you try and use your own, most times you are going to get shot. It doesn’t matter how good you are- you’re surprised, you’re thinking about something else, and even in perfect conditions all the odds were against you. The circumstances where it’s useful are way less common than the circumstances where it’s dangerous.

The motorbikers were especially weird- lots of plans of how to carry on a bike, “access is key man, no point carrying if you can’t use it immediately”. Yeah, but you’re wearing leather gloves that make using a firearm impossible. So they end up strapping lumps of metal to their hips or their chests or their lower spines, which they’ll never ever be able to use if they wish to, but which they’re really pretty likely to fall on in a crash and mangle themselves. And all the time, they’re on a machine that can take them a quarter mile away in 10 seconds.

I’m just going to leave this here

Sam Harris

I just read that. What an awful article that comes up with a really awful conclusion.

Stop the sale of ammunition and make it a automatic 10yr year sentance to be in posession of

Have you seen how many Americans are already locked up? They could never afford to lock up every American found with ammo. Then there are all the excuses 1) I didn’t know I had it, it’s from the 1950’s etc 2) The fact that most yanks would end up just making their own powder and reloading brass.

Aye. I’ve known some concealed carryists, and the truth is they were all deep in the western fantasy of quickdrawing and shooting down a bad guy. The reality is, if some dude comes up to you with a gun and the willingness to use it, and you try and use your own, most times you are going to get shot. It doesn’t matter how good you are- you’re surprised, you’re thinking about something else, and even in perfect conditions all the odds were against you. The circumstances where it’s useful are way less common than the circumstances where it’s dangerous.

The point of concealed carry though, not that I particularly agree with it is that the attacker then gets shot by another citizen who was not the target. It’s a variation on MAD – and I believe those states that have introduced concealed carry laws have seen a reduced rate of violent crime.

Going back to those graphs on page 1, I see that NYC’s death rate isn’t so good – especially considering NYC has almost totally outlawed guns.

It’s a whole genie out of the bottle thing isn’t it? They’ve let it out, we’ve kept the lid on and battened it down a bit for good measure.

My own feelings is that the USA is a strange place. They will allow you to own a weapon with minimal checks,

that’s not true, really, though. there is a spectrum of weapons law from NYC (where it’s not very far from the UK position and mandatory prison sentences for some weapons offences) to Vermont (where there is very little regulation).