Grenfell enquiry

I guess the old thread will be closed now (stw search function doesn’t find it anyway).

Looks like there is a lot of blame to spread around…

Manufacturers of cladding products – which were “by far the largest contributor” to the fire – were found to have engaged in “systematic dishonesty”, and used “deliberate and sustained strategies” to make their products appear safe
Arconic, the company which made the cladding panels on the tower’s exterior, are found to have “deliberately concealed” the safety risk; two firms which produced insulation – Celotex and Kingspan – were found to have “misled”
“Incompetent” companies involved in the 2011 refurbishment of the tower – Studio E and Harley Facades – are found to bear “significant” responsibility for the disaster, while project manager Rydon’s oversight of the work led to a culture of “buck-passing”
“Many opportunities” to address the risks posed by flammable cladding were missed by governments from the early 1990s onwards, culminating in “decades of failure”
The 2010 Conservative-Liberal Democrat government is strongly criticised for its focus on cutting regulation, which led to safety matters being “ignored, delayed or disregarded”
Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea council and its social housing arm, the Tenant Management Organisation, had a “persistent indifference to fire safety, particularly the safety of vulnerable people”
London Fire Brigade lacked a strategy to evacuate the building once they had lost control, and had an “unfounded assumption” the type of blaze which occurred at Grenfell Tower could not happen

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c623vrw92rrt

It sounds like it’s a pretty scathing report, but will anyone actually be held to account & perhaps prosecuted? I really hope so.

Very moving to hear all of the names read out. All preventable.

It was difficult to not get upset when the names were read out, just thinking about how they died, I had to switch it off.

Imagine if there was a Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act that the CPS could use to charge those responsible in the companies.

I swear to God that George Osborne and David Cameron are going to go down in history as worse than the ones who came after them.

Deregulation, release the shackles on UK Business, grow the pie, trickle down.

They have got **** blood on their hands.

Hey,

Another one that Cameron truly fsck’d up by de-regulation. I know the Tory’s cannot be entirely blamed but holy.f, is there anything they didn’t actually fug up. I read yesterday Tugendhat says they need to be taken seriously again, or words to that affect. What a bunch of self serving arseholes that shouldn’t of been allowed to run anything but a tap…

JeZ

The problems with this cladding were known about from the early 90s, the cladding was installed in 2011, the year after the torie/lib dems were elected. Their actions may have made the matter worse but labour were in power for far longer without acting.

This is a failure of the whole political class not just one party. Neoliberalism and greed have been allowed to override quality of life and safety for far too long. It is a systematic failure of what we value as a nation greed before humanity, and politicians from all major parties have driven this attitude.

We all know what ‘removing red tape’ really meant. If not letting people get away with murder, then letting them get away with corporate manslaughter

Plenty of people knew that cladding was flammable and dangerous, but whether it was to hit their budget or to make their bonus, they nodded it through with a ‘fingers crossed, it’ll probably be ok’

I read some of the evidence from the sales and marketing guy of the manufacturer who said jokingly in an email “all we seem to do is lie to people’ regarding the safety of their product and their fabricated test results

Will any of them see prison? Of course not. This is Great Britain. Like the officers at Hillsborough or the bankers who planted a bomb at the heart of our economy, they’ll all waltz off to get on with their well-remunerated lives, entirely free from the consequences of their actions.

That’s the way we do things in this country. Zero accountability because it’s only ‘little people’ who died

Imagine if there was a Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act that the CPS could use to charge those responsible in the companies.

From The Guardian

Detectives from the Metropolitan police’s criminal investigation said they would spend 12 to 18 months poring over the findings “line by line” before possible charges. These could include corporate manslaughter, gross negligence manslaughter, fraud, perverting the course of justice and misconduct in public office.

The Crown Prosecution Service is yet to make any charging decisions and any trials are not expected to start until 2027.

So it could still happen, if we just wait for a few more years. Not particularly rapid these wheels of justice are they?

This is a failure of the whole political class not just one party. Neoliberalism and greed have been allowed to override quality of life and safety for far too long. It is a systematic failure of what we value as a nation greed before humanity, and politicians from all major parties have driven this attitude.

Agreed doesn’t matter who is in power, lobbying and collusion between business and politics happens all the time no matter what branding the politician. It will continue to happen under this Labour government and whoever comes next.

The inquiry seems scathing from the summaries I’ve read, but I still don’t hold out much hope of convictions. Everyone seems to be responsible, which perhaps in the end means no one will be held responsible.

https://x.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1831234112092266718?s=19

Pickles…. dont bother me im a busy man. I do hope hes charged 1st

Presumably other countries took action when the dangers of such cladding were known?

NB – I’m expecting corroboration that UK deregulation caused the problem, not looking to excuse it in any way.

IIRC the company suppling the cladding was French owned and specifically targeted the UK market due to the lax regulatory framework.

EDIT: I’ve just dug out the article from the Guardian ‘Long Read’ a couple of years ago. It’s shocking stuff

A merry-go-round of buck-passing’: inside the four-year Grenfell inquiry

Presumably other countries took action when the dangers of such cladding were known?

There was a similar disaster in Spain recently. I think they had already outlawed the cladding, but fixing 25+ years of installations will take just as long.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68378968

I listended to the BBC Radio work series last week and the failures were there to see and predict.

Building standards were set aside for “system design” to be encoraged.

Cladding was fire tested and then sold out of context of those very tests.

Its a shocking example of parts of British Industry and Local/National Government.

Those 72 people who lost their lives I cant imagine the pain of their death and the effects upon family and friends.

This will become a re-run of Hillsborough, the details will be different but the underlying circumstances are similar.

‘Little People’ died because of the result of the actions of a few ‘Big Cheeses’ with a lot to lose financially and status-wise.

AFAIK no one in positions of responsibility at Hillsborough has seen the inside of a cell in relation to it.

No one will for Grenfell either.

I can’t imagine how survivors and family must feel – and I’m sure their push for justice will be keeping some of them going full-stop. But I am deeply sceptical about their chances given the British establishment and their ability to evade, defer, and thwart any attempt to impose accountability on them.

Those 72 people who lost their lives I cant imagine the pain of their death and the effects upon family and friends.

Especially as it was all so easily avoidable. The warnings were  repeatedly flagged up, but absolutely nothing was done about it. There was a collective “yeah… whatever….” from those in authority who’s job it was to prevent this kind of disaster

As with Hillsborough, another case of repeated warnings being ignored, absolutely nobody will ever be held accountable, you can be certain of that

binners

Full Member
IIRC the company suppling the cladding was French owned and specifically targeted the UK market due to the lax regulatory framework.

EDIT: I’ve just dug out the article from the Guardian ‘Long Read’ a couple of years ago. It’s shocking stuff

A merry-go-round of buck-passing’: inside the four-year Grenfell inquiry

So many parts of that are sickening. Lobbyists getting the standards reduced, sub-standard test requirements, companies cheating the tests. It’s **** disgusting. If I were running the country I’d have their **** heads on a pike.  You just know some fat **** CEOs walked away with big bunse for getting it permitted as well. Disgusting.

Eric Pickles (now a Lord) was the minister in charge of fire safety before the Grenfell fire.

Reading that just beggars belief…..

He was minister in charge of fire safety…. and now he is a lord.

If I was the parent of someone who died in that fire then I pray the lord would grant me strength to go full ak.

Not particularly rapid these wheels of justice are they?

Then especially for the corporate manslaughter they can just throw money at it to slow things down. Unless the fines look cheap enough it can just be written off.

I wonder how some of the people sleep when rereading their messages laughing off the risks.

I think that this is different from Hillsborough and the sub postmaster scandal, in that there isn’t an easy made scapegoat. In those cases they tried to lay the blame at the feet of the victims. In this case the enquiry at least seems to have been run with honest intent, and has apportioned blame where it is due.

I see no signs of a cover up in todays report, whether that actually results in action we will have to wait and see. But at least this report has not sought to blame the victims and their families in the way Hillsborough and the postmaster scandal did.

Now who are all the people who bemoan ‘health and safety gone mad’ when it comes to stuff like this ?

There’s plenty involved in this sorry, avoidable mess, that need to swing from a rope for their acts. Starting with Cameron.

(BTW who sold the BRE ? I presume it was Major’s Gov, just like the railways ?)

EDIT – yep, Edwina-shagger John Major’s Tory Gov sold off the BRE in March 1997.

(BTW who sold the BRE ? I presume it was Major’s Gov, just like the railways ?)

Wikipedia says it happened in March 1997, so yeah in his last few months in power.

In those cases they tried to lay the blame at the feet of the victims

You mean a bit like this…

One from the archives that feels pertinent today…https://t.co/66bKxwUgRt

— The London Economic (@LondonEconomic) September 4, 2024

You mean a bit like this…

Exactly.
A man who likely had significant business investments in all the lying, cheating and conniving companies who created this lethal system.

Don’t forget the impact on the individuals in the emergency services on the night and in the site clearing work afterwards.

I’ve a pal who was in the building on that night, in the course of duty; it has had a profound effect on his life.  I think it’s reasonably clear that the fire service were misled in the evidence given to them when carrying out their site fire risk assessments and evac plans.  If all of the effective material standards and fire protections that they were advised of had been there and properly fitted, then the ‘sit tight’ instruction would have been a valid approach.  They weren’t and it wasn’t the right approach that night.  I too would like to see some serious consequences for guilty individuals over this.

The fire brigade still seem to be essentially getting criticised for working on the basis that the building and its cladding should be fit for purpose and that all the essential safety features weren’t fictional. It definitely seems like the reason their action plan didn’t work was because of all that systematic dishonesty, deliberate concealment of safety risks, intentional misleading, and incompetent refurbishment and the culture of buck-passing. No different to, say, turning up at an industrial unit and discovering it’s full of ilelgally stored hazardous chemicals.

This is long but worth reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/14/a-merry-go-round-of-buck-passing-inside-the-four-year-grenfell-inquiry

It’s all very indicative of the Bitish attitudes to rules and regulation. We all love a good unless it applies to us then people look for every weasel way around the rules. Our government constantly undermines regulation by utterly failing to enforce it an that applies to traffic offences through to building regulation environmental standards. We don’t fund or support the regulators. Regulation of the private sector should be a core responsibility of government in a capitalist economy.

The suggestion that the complexities of testing materials and following safety standards appear to have overwhelmed the professionals involved in a £10m reclad of a council tower block was unnerving.

More disturbing still was how familiar much of the evidence felt from our own working lives. When witnesses, presented with their own email trails, admitted that they “didn’t open the attachment” that contained some vital instruction or information, it was not a shock. This is business in the 21st century.

When the inquiry publishes its final report in 2023, it may find that the fire was a result of the way we work – deluged with unread emails, constantly overstretched, walled off from the consequences of our actions, barely understanding the whole system.

This quote from the Guardian article rams home to me all the reasons I job hopped for a few years before getting the hell out of frontline construction. The expectations are completely unrealistic and I fear the extra (whilst clearly necessary) scrutiny and assurance procedures will just make things worse.

I notice they’re also proposing more oversight and regulation of Building Control. Again, I’m entirely for this if it prevents tragedy, but my experience of Building Control is that they’re already hellishly overworked, people signed off with stress and on anti-depressants for anxiety. Subjecting them to additional oversight and regulation will achieve nothing goid unless they’re given more help, more time, perhaps, god forbid, more training.

I think all those concluding that this is endemic and requires complete overhaul of the industry are exactly correct, but government proposals I’ve seen so far don’t fill me with hope.

It’s not just the UK, virtually the whole of the western Governments have prostrated themselves before the oligarchs, lobbyists and corporations way before they think of the people.

Regulation of the private sector should be a core responsibility of government in a capitalist economy.

We don’t have a capitalist economy though, we have a corporatist one. This report just highlights that at every level.

Rich, profit-obsessed corporations successfully lobbied governments to get standards constantly reduced to prop up their bottom lines. They then deliberately lied and lied and lied so as not to meet even these minimal standards.

Successive governments, at every level, have been entirely complicit in this, with their refusal to even enforce the bare minimum standards and endorse a Wild West attitude to safety standards with enormous implications for peoples lives

People need to be held accountable for all this, but does anyone think for a second that will actually happen?

It’s all very indicative of the Bitish attitudes to rules and regulation. We all love a good unless it applies to us then people look for every weasel way around the rules.

Just caught some of the BBC coverage and their correspondent was talking about a societal pattern with Hillsborough,  the infected blood scandal, Bloody Sunday.

Except it’s not our end of society, it’s those with the position to ignore the rules and cover it up.

but will anyone actually be held to account & perhaps prosecuted? I really hope so.

If there is any prosecution it will be the manufacturers. Apparently the council building, planning and design teams know nothing about the jobs they work on.

but my experience of Building Control is that they’re already hellishly overworked, people signed off with stress and on anti-depressants for anxiety

The Guardian article from a couple of years ago quotes the fact that the council made ten people with oversight over building regulation redundant, leaving just one person who at the time of the Grenfell proposals being submitted was personally responsible for around 130 construction projects. What chance did he have of spitting details about the cladding on one building. He was literally drowning in paperwork and would have had no chance against well-funded developers cutting corners to save a few quid. Imagine being that poor bastard?

Imagine being that poor bastard?

Pretty much most public sector staff are in a similar position, and a surprising number have responsibilities that could result in deaths.

We really seem to have no value on either safety or even basic competence.

Pickles…. dont bother me im a busy man. I do hope hes charged 1st

I rather he was hounded down till the heart attack finally catches up with him, a **** odious lump of gristle.