By and large, I reckon the grading system more or less works.

After extensive research I’ve come to the following interpretation:

Kids / MIL / nervous adults = green

Blue = easy enough, but expect swoopy narrow bits, hopefully fun, usually ****ing dull as ****.

Red = harder, expect rocky bumpy bits and a few sketchy corners/steep bits. Noobies likely to be bashed about and knackered by the end

Black = bit harder again, more rocks, more consequential. Noobies likely to suffer an epic sense of humour failure long before the end. Not recommended at all

Now, let’s deal with the ‘expert’ thing. A Nooby, rocking up at their first trail centre, will hopefully take note of the word ‘expert’, and decide to tackle the green/blue/red instead. Which is probably for the best.

My wife says ‘people who can do something usually have no idea how hard it really is’.

Also, trails with monster jumps that are rollable – I’m not sure how they should be graded. Calling them black would keep people off them, yet a novice might well be quite happy riding down them.

Like Cwmcarn DH black. Trundle down it nice and easy, it’s nothing, but it takes more cojones than I have to clear all the doubles.

generally my impression of trail center blacks is…
red but longer, and probably harder work…
Not all but most.

I agree with the sentiment, I would like more DH style features included in trail center style loops.

At this point very few people i know or ride with would expect any feature on a black trail to pose too much of a problem, and would expect to happily ride any feature blind (without pre-inspection) at whatever speed they arrived at it at.

If this suddenly changed then i think we would have many more injuries.
use of effective qualifiers?

So grading aside

Where do I vote for more harder technical features to be included in trail centers for mounting biking over, on a mountain bike, in a dedicated mountain biking venue?

BPW seems to have it right.

Alp blacks are far harder so internationally there needs to be similarities.

Red- it’s pretty average for the most part
7/10 – it’ll hurt if you’re hungover as there’s a fair sized hill, expect at least one fig roll stop.

Oooh, bringing cakes and biscuits into the grading? I like it. This is a jammy dodger graded trail, but if we extend over the hill it may be a two slab of fruit cake grade. Is carrot cake more or less than a flapjack? 🙂

Surely the true international unit for grading endurance would be the maltloaf?

Flapjack certainly trumps carrot cake, whilst cake is good it implies the route is easy enough that you can carry a large pack with a crumbly cargo without damaging it, flapjack and maltloaf are certainly more gnarr.

jimjam – Member
There were no trail centres in Northern Ireland till a few years ago, then all of a sudden there were 5. I think a lot of us guffawed at the grading. The black and orange trails are really quite tame.

Thing is Jay, i don’t think we appreciated just how difficult some of the trails we rode/ride are in the grand scheme of things. Some of the well know runs at Cavehill (not a trail centre for the foreigners) were graded double black by that welsh trailbuilder guy when he was over and they are tame compared to some of the stuff a Donard (Deerhunter and his son are what i’d describe as black). Which leads nicely onto Dan’s point…

glasgowdan –

Public bodies that build trails (e.g. Forestry Commission) are the worst for getting it wrong. The mid to high end of the skill range, which makes up probably half of riders, are simply not catered for. Everything seems to be made for beginners, families and the like, but beginners are only going to be beginners for a year or two!

It was the existing riders who championed and harassed the powers at be for years into providing trail centres over here and the guffawing was mixed with disappointment as the trails built were not really for the ‘hardcore’ riders but aimed at introducing newcomers into the sport. This is great btw, but as Dan says, they don’t stay noobs for long.

Maybe the answer is Black centres or something? Starting at black and increasing in difficulty all the way up to octo-black (where death is pretty much guaranteed).

I know this bit but that’s not the bit I’m thinking of. It’s a bit of black somewhere near Snap, Crackle and Pop IIRC. It’s basically a switchback with a 3 or 4 foot wooden wall on the outside edge, then a rock garden. I find it very hard (impossible!) getting round the switchback to line myself up for the otherwise easy “point and shoot” rock garden.

Pretty sure it’s called oblivion, it’s a good section hadn’t seen it till last weekend, IMHO it deserved to be graded black, it’s tricky and don’t get target fixated on the trees on the outside they eat wide bars, whoops.

thisisnotaspoon – Member

Surely the true international unit for grading endurance would be the maltloaf?

Flapjack certainly trumps carrot cake, whilst cake is good it implies the route is easy enough that you can carry a large pack with a crumbly cargo without damaging it, flapjack and maltloaf are certainly more gnarr.

Yep, I haven’t thought this through, have I? 😆

Shirley, once you are hitting gaps, boosting 6′ drops and stuff, then you’re a bit beyond needing a small coloured sign at the start of your trails?

And as for saying “the uk is getting left behind in the gnar stakes” remember, not that long ago, the “werewolf” drop at Cannock was considered pretty serious a feature………..

And as for saying “the uk is getting left behind in the gnar stakes” remember, not that long ago, the “werewolf” drop at Cannock was considered pretty serious a feature………..

No, no it wasn’t, it was quite rightly the subject of mockery and ridicule on the interweb. Or have I just missed sarcasm for the 2nd time in this thread.

It comes under the same category as the Swinley rock garden, the only grammatically correct rock (singular) garden in the UK.

OP, come over to stainburn and ride the blacks here. Do that and clear them all without dabbing, you can def call yourself an expert.

Moar purple routes please.

Expert?
Pffft.

I’ve done the black at Legdangler.
And the black pudding at Whinelater.

Both were excellent.

I’ve heard that the Llandegla black is easier than the Gisburn red. If that’s the case the grading is inconsistent

Anyone ridden the new “black” descent on the wall at afan?
It looked like a mudbath on saturday so I took zigzags but curious if it’s any good?

MAC FUCKES YOUR GRADEDS BALLS

The potential to really hurt yourself at Llandegla is huuuge.

We just mince down it, very, very slowly.
But it’s very easy to underestimate your speed because it feels friendly and fun.
Lots of newcomers too.

To me, Gisburn has much less chance of breaking you badly – the consequences aren’t as severe and it’s not as tempting to push things too far.
Just my onion, obviously.
Wales and Scotland should really have a word though.

maxtorque – Member

Shirley, once you are hitting gaps, boosting 6′ drops and stuff, then you’re a bit beyond needing a small coloured sign at the start of your trails?

Information is useful. And just because you’re comfortable with decent sized drops, doesn’t mean you’re necessarily comfortable with a surprise one.

Picture the scene, you’re at a new trail centre, unless you do a bit of research you literally know 3 things about each trail- what the first 10 metres look like, the name, and the grade. This is, fundamentally, nothing. Whereas useful grading and information you can, frinstance, go “Sounds like this trail is more for me than that one” or “This one’s rooty and gnarly apparently, Bob, you’re good with a trumpet, you go first, I’ll follow”

(he can root it oot)

This sort of thing. Knowledge is power. I went riding at BPW with a less confident mate a while back, I ended up scouting out the trails first because we had literally no idea what to expect from their local grades, and because they decided to put a mandatory air woodwork drop as a qualifier on a red. And I still missed one of the blacks because I’d heard it was all big jumps, which turned out to be bobbins.

The potential to hurt yourself at Llandegla is huge?? Have they changed it completely??? Llandegla is OK but definitely on the tame side.

MAC FUCKES YOUR GRADEDS BALLS

That is indeed a rare talent. Have you considered a career in journalism?

When did it all get so serious? I get frustrated at cheaply constructed kitty litter trails, but does it really matter? Does anyone expect a trail to be at exactly the level to challenge their own personal skills the whole way around? The only place I’ve ever ridden trails like that were in BC but I’m sure some here would have cleaned the lot.

grannyjone – Member

I’ve heard that the Llandegla black is easier than the Gisburn red. If that’s the case the grading is inconsistent

Measured by maxxis, innit

Yeah, I think so, for the less experienced, certainly.

The red is such a blast, it’s tempting to underestimate the consequences of speed, bravado and lack of knowledge required to stay safe.

I think black is appropriate tbh.

Written from the perspective of a middle aged bimbler.
You see a lot of us there, lifting the front wheel half an inch over the jumps and getting in your way.
🙂

andylc – Member
The potential to hurt yourself at Llandegla is huge?? Have they changed it completely??? Llandegla is OK but definitely on the tame side.

It’s very tame to roll down. But jumping and doubling it all – different game.

First time I rode there, I found myself about eight feet in the air by mistake, overshooting a landing by miles to flat. How fast you ride and how many risks you take makes a huge difference.

If the current cuts in FC budgets continue(from what I am hearing) I wouldn’t be too worried about grading more about the survival of trail centres 😥 From what I’ve heard about the issuing of next years maint contracts the company/companies awarded the contracts must be doing so at a loss!!!!!!!”……………

The problem with making or creating “black” routes which are any more difficult/exciting/challenging is due to the ever present claims4us brigade!!!! Like it or not there are many claims made against FC that are never published/made public by insurance/accident claims companies 🙄

The potential to hurt yourself at Llandegla is huge?? Have they changed it completely??? Llandegla is OK but definitely on the tame side.

I rode the new black sections off the woodwork just after it opened, set off with good speed, reading the trail fairly well but there was one of the tables that turned slightly, ended up parked in the wall, bit later had to take a short break while somebody got loaded into an Ambulance. You can generate a lot of speed and if you get one of the tables/jumps wrong it will hurt. But you can roll down it all with no hassle at all. Makes grading really tricky doesn’t it.

For the OP do BPW/Antor etc. not satisfy your needs, Revolution bike park too, sure you can ride up all of those and make it a loop. If you want some techier stuff try the EWS at Tweed Valley.

Going back to the grading system of rock climbing. How do you factor in Gnarpoon vs steel Ht with 120 forks vs [whatever niche is current in STW land]?

The UK could adopt the IMBA system….
https://www.imba.com/resources/maps/trail-difficulty-ratings
It would mean any red signs are now pointless

Basic principles
Grade the Tech only – inform on the distance/elevation
Measure and Score
Think about the other local trails
My favourite and a link to the climbing grade

Don’t forget to consider trail qualities beyond the objective criteria. A wide variety of features could contribute to a trail’s difficulty. For example, exposure – the feeling of empty space next to and below the trail tread – provides an added psychological challenge beyond the steepness or roughness of the trail. A 3-inch rock seems like a boulder when a 50-foot drop looms on your side! Other qualities to think about are corridor clearance and turn radius.

No rating system can be totally objective or valid for every situation. This system is a tool to be combined with common sense.

ht. It’s a rock garden that’s a straightforward “point and shoot” in isolation, but is preceded by a tight hairpin that I simply can’t get round to line me up for the rocky bit.

Its a bastard, left hand swithcback straight into dropoff and then the rock gardens, there’s hardly any time to get the bike back upright before hitting dropoff.

One of the most challenging sections of any trail center I’ve been to.

Agree with the OP to a certain extent in so much as most blacks do tend to flatter a rider abilities.

Speaking for myself…this leads to a big skills gap between what’s required to be able to comfortably ride blacks and the progression required to ride basic downhill, Gisburn for example.

Want some entry level DH?
https://www.rootsandrain.com/calendar/#!/2015/gb/up/
Book on any one of the shropshire uplifts, Hopton & Bringewood can be ridden up easily. DO BPW/Antor/Revolution not show a step towards this? There is a new venue on the cards for Cumbria, Inners/Golfie/Peebles unmarked/Ae etc. give a lot of non trail centre experience, Aston hill gives a bit of a go down south and Hamsterly DH is there too. Add in some of the “local” riding spots that people have put in and built quietly that provide some serious technical challenges perhaps you just don’t know where they are.

It’s got to be a question as to if “Black” trails are there to flatter people, transition them into DH or just to let people enjoy themselves. I’m not sure the UK is struggling to transition people into DH with some of the best strength in depth of any country. Pick some of the more entry level DH tracks and work up from there, plenty of the Shropshire tracks can be ridden on trail bikes and the big features can be built up to, stepping up to some very serious/national DH is a long way above some of those.

Probably the one thing in the way of big loop transition to DH type trails is you either need a massive long climb to deliver 4-5 mins of reward, of lots of really short hard to get up to speed sections linked by lots of small climbs.

I think the UK just needs to adopt our club’s in house grading system. Sections of trail are matches to levels of curry spiciness (there is a vaguely logical reason why, but that’s another boring and vaguely scatological story).

The scale runs from Korma to Phall and has served us well so far…

Nailed it.

Want some entry level DH?
https://www.rootsandrain.com/calendar/#!/2015/gb/up/
Book on any one of the shropshire uplifts, Hopton and Bringewood can be ridden up easily.

Mike – you’re right, I probably should put up or shut up and go and try some proper DH where no doubt I would be schooled in how to ride a bike. I have been to a few semi(?) DH tracks, used to regularly go to the scousers track at Nannerch when it was running, enjoyed a day at Stile cop at Cannock, enjoyed the track at Gisburn and have a few local spots I can get to on a morning (Billinge Hill). I have built jumps etc. in the past and in fact am building another currently in my lunch hour for somewhere else to ride.
Unfortunately though I don’t get enough free time to really get into pure DH apart from the odd day. If I were to it would be at the expense of being able to go for xc rides in the Lakes or loops around trail centres which I also enjoy.
I guess this is turning into a pretty selfish argument in a way because I’m asking for trail centres to deliver exactly what I’m after which is a good xc loop with DH style features on the black sections all in one ride. Which is why I conceded defeat earlier as I realised this wasn’t for everyone. However I do think there is some merit to the comment that we have set our sights too low in general, and ought to aim for more.

wrecker – I know mtb’ing is not to be taken too seriously, and I have fun on a bike whatever I’m doing but my spare time is pretty precious these days so all I’m asking for is the potential to have moar fun!

wrecker – I know mtb’ing is not to be taken too seriously, and I have fun on a bike whatever I’m doing but my spare time is pretty precious these days so all I’m asking for is the potential to have moar fun!

I feel you buddy, but it is what it is. Be the calm blue lake 😀

I probably should put up or shut up

Or build your own?

I’m asking for trail centres to deliver exactly what I’m after which is a good xc loop with DH style features on the black sections all in one ride.

I think this exists though. Perhaps not at all trail centres, but certainly some of them. You just have to be more creative and have your eyes open to the lines. As someone said above, Llandegla is a great example of this: you can roll pretty much all of the black in relative safety, but if you want to ride it like it’s meant to be ridden, those back to back table tops are actually big doubles.

Last time I was at ‘Degla I was playing on the little rhythm section, when I young lad came hooning off the boardwalk into the first set of doubles, hit the first lip and transitioned to the other set of doubles. Proper impressive skills, but all he was doing was seeing an “expert” line where 95% of the people who ride there probably see nothing but two very separate lines.

Or build your own?

I have done in the past when I didn’t have 2 kids etc. Its both very rewarding but swallows time like nothing else and shatters you when some scrotes kick a winters worth of digging down in the Easter holidays. But once it’s in your blood it’s hard to stop so I’ve found another suitable area where I’m building a nice jump on my lunch hour. I may even post up pics when I’m finished…

Mike – you’re right, I probably should put up or shut up and go and try some proper DH where no doubt I would be schooled in how to ride a bike.

Not what I was saying at all, head over and try some of the more fun less mad lines at the likes of Hopton and Bringewood, I’ve raced both HT and on 6″ bikes, they have some decent features and options and you can ride up to the top. Just like the trail centres you are after.

You just have to be more creative and have your eyes open to the lines.

Noted. I do try and keep my eyes open for opportunities and I know a few bits at ‘degla where I can launch a gap but as I visit an individual trail centre maybe once or twice a year I don’t have enough familiarity to be able to spot most, maybe an excuse but I’m sticking to it.

As someone said above, Llandegla is a great example of this: you can roll pretty much all of the black in relative safety, but if you want to ride it like it’s meant to be ridden, those back to back table tops are actually big doubles.

Which tabletops? No doubt some of the tables are pretty small but if you try and double them up you’d be in 30′ plus double territory which would be pretty mad. Would love to see a vid if there is one.

Mike – thanks for that option, maybe something I will have to persue.

you’d be in 30′ plus double territory which would be pretty mad

So this is where opinions about what is expert come into play. I’m a loooonnnngggg way from expert, but I’ve done 20′ tabletops (granted after much practising and coming up short…and I’m not sure I’d just launch myself at one regularly) and I’m no expert: I’m a middle aged Dad with self-preservation instincts. Plenty of people stronger, braver and more skilful than me.

My local woods have doubles that are easily 30′.

I think there is a video of a top rider at ‘Degla if you do a bit of searching.

“Anyone ridden the new “black” descent on the wall at afan?
It looked like a mudbath on saturday so I took zigzags but curious if it’s any good?”

– yes, a lot…..it is know as S4 (as it was dug for last years Enduro event and was stage four). It is graded black, and quite rightly so. It is very, very steep with switchbacks at the top! It should probably graded double black, avoid unless experienced at riding nearly vertical stuff!