[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46kXH6GGtT0[/video]

Can you ride it on a CX bike without being SuperAwesome? Black’s probably stretching it a bit then 🙂

I reckon some of the ideas from rock sport grading could be useful, namely splitting the grade into ‘fitness’ and ‘technique’.
A relatively long loop, or one with lots of steep climbing may currently be graded higher because of the fact it is physically demanding but be pretty tame from a ‘feature’ point of view.
The reverse could also be possible.
Surely it would be better to have a way of showing that a trail needs x level of fitness and y level of bike handling skill?

Personally I just ride stuff. If it’s too hard I either try again until I can do it or mince past and never do it again, but I usually avoid Black graded stuff if I’ve not had any beta on it, just in case it contains unavoidable stuff that is beyond my abilities.

cokie – Member

Odd grading system.

It’s not a system at all – there’s nobody grading things relative to each other.

But since everyone uses roughly the same colour scheme, it can give that false impression. Like my kid, who rode blues and reds in Coed Y Brenin happily for two days, then came home ad headed down a green bike park trail, and crashed within 10 yards.

I apply the northwind grading. If I ride it blind on the hardtail, and at any point go “oo-er”, it’s a black. If I ride it on a cx bike and am smug about it, it’s a red. If I ride over a child while strava’ing, it’s a blue. And if I get lulled into a false sense of security by excessive easyness and end up riding into a tree at the speed of light, it’s a green.

In addition to what people are saying about the colour grading not meaning much… that’s a good point thisisnotaspoon makes about the red at Swinley.

A well built trail centre trail to some extent can be as challenging as you make it.

Sticking to that example of Swinley there are all sorts of little hidden gems around Swinley red which you can double up if you’ve got the expert skills and expert speed to do it. But I know many people who have ridden Swinley and slated it as being dull. Some expert level challenges might be hiding in plain sight.

I apply the northwind grading

where are you on the slightly controversial orangy/red Cyflym Coch, at Coed-y

So, who cares whether it’s red or black, or blue graded, try it, see if you like it, if not, don’t ride it again.

Because I wanted to raise a point of discussion, and because I think a lot of peole are capable of more without wanting to necessarily visit a DH track.

You obviously should have been riding the Red Bull Hardline at Atherton’s this past weekend!

I’m picking on you because it was the last of this type of comment, but this is just a lazy sideways dig, of course I shouldn’t have been I have no doubt death would have been the result so no I’m not super rad or awesumz but then again I rarely feel challenged on a black route however if someone asked me I wouldn’t say I was an “expert MTB’er”.

I’ve had some reality checks recently. I’m confident to have a go on pretty much any trail centre blacks, but there’s a feature at Cannock that I just can’t get right. It’s a rock garden that’s a straightforward “point and shoot” in isolation, but is preceded by a tight hairpin that I simply can’t get round to line me up for the rocky bit. I’ve tried it several times and fail miserably each time 😆

Not sure what my point is, other than sometimes black techniques are more than just jumps, rocks and drops.

nickc – Member
I apply the northwind grading

where are you on the slightly controversial orangy/red Cyflym Coch, at Coed-y

Is that controversial? It’s the one I was talking about above that ym 7 year old loved

But then again I rarely feel challenged on a black route however if someone asked me I wouldn’t say I was an “expert MTB’er”.

the grading isn’t for you…It’s for people who’ve just bought a £300 Apollo from Halfords, as has been mentioned once or twice.

EDIT: honourable, sorry, I was being factitious, the trails is great fun, it’s just the colour they’ve chosen for the signage that I was alluding to.

It’s easy to forget that most of these centres aren’t just aimed at enthusiasts, they are also marketed as a gateway venues to noobs. Someone with a BSO and some fitness can get down a blue and a red in relative safety by just sitting down and going steady all the way round, but a black, even as easy as they are to experienced riders are both intimidating and represent the real possibility of injury. In this context they are for’experts’.

so trail centres are built for noobs? And the best we can hope for is that black runs are for what a noob would consider to be an expert???

Exactly, and the proper thrill seekers take themselves to the ‘snow park’ (dirt jumps, skate park, bike park) or find/build their own gnar off piste (natural trails, secret jumps/drops etc).

I know a few spots where I can go for pure DH, but is it wrong to want part of the thrill of a DH track incorporated into a trail centre loop via “expert” labelled black runs?

the grading isn’t for you…It’s for people who’ve just bought a £300 Apollo from Halfords, as has been mentioned once or twice.

this makes no sense to me, it should be for everyone from novice through to the “expert”?
I consider myself to be an average ability MTB’er, surely I can’t be the only one who thinks the challenges of the sport shouldn’t be dictated by the threat of litigation and catering to noob riders who might have wandered onto a black run by accident?

Sticking to that example of Swinley there are all sorts of little hidden gems around Swinley red which you can double up if you’ve got the expert skills and expert speed to do it. But I know many people who have ridden Swinley and slated it as being dull. Some expert level challenges might be hiding in plain sight.

Swinley is an excellent example of an easily accessible trail center ridden by people of all skill levels which needs to grade trails reflective to its user base. I think the ‘red’ classification there is as much to do with the extra distance (given that you need to ride the blue to get to the red), which would do for many of the younger/family/less fit riders which (very frequently) use it. There were more obvious doubles on the red when it first opened, but they got filled in on safety grounds, but the ‘jumps’ still exist. As previously mentioned, there are some big gaps on some of the (none off piste) ‘downhill’ sections which require some serious speed / commitment to nail.

The very fact this thread keeps rolling is testament to how hard it is to grade man-made trails to satisfy everyone.

Someone up there ^ referenced rock climbing grades. That is a proper system established well over a 100 years ago, yet still people have endless debates about how effective and consistent it is. Ask an experienced rock climber what a “Scottish VS” is 🙂

The thing is, I’m an “average ability MTBer” too yet the grading works quite well for me. I know that I can ride the black at Llandegla quite safely, but to ride it as the pros do I have to step up my confidence and ability several notches. That’s the genius behind these trails. You can make them “expert” simply by riding them faster/higher/longer.

The main black at Lee Quarry is proper hard in places even if riding it very slowly its not easy to survive.
The red at Healey Nab when it gets extremely boggy in Winter is hard to ride in places. So the difficulty sometimes depends on conditions.

There was something further up about DH tracks being the only ones that aren’t rollable. Well I trundled down the World Cup track at Fort William on my hardtail a few weeks ago, and as far as I can recall, apart from the road jump which is closed off, all that was rollable. Ok, a couple of those were forward rolls, but the point stands 🙂

[/quote]I’ve had some reality checks recently. I’m confident to have a go on pretty much any trail centre blacks, but there’s a feature at Cannock that I just can’t get right. It’s a rock garden that’s a straightforward “point and shoot” in isolation, but is preceded by a tight hairpin that I simply can’t get round to line me up for the rocky bit. I’ve tried it several times and fail miserably each time

Do you mean the little bit with the raised boardwalk bit with the tight turn? It’s slightly tricky but not in a gnarr sort of way, just a bit delicate at the beginning. I think Cannock is a good example of somewhere with not a lot of potential which has been used really well, the black bits are quite fun if incredibly short. That apart from a stupid tiny bump near the end which lasts all of 2 seconds but is marked as a black section!

[video]https://youtu.be/M1yRiFOdZiU[/video]

Good example of a feature hiding in plain sight – I’d classify myself as an averagely OK rider, comfortable on BPW Reds and the tamer Black bits – yet this is on Swinley Blue and there’s no way I’d try it…

I reckon some of the ideas from rock sport grading could be useful, namely splitting the grade into ‘fitness’ and ‘technique’.

The other thing some systems get ‘right’ is a grading for the average technicality and the hardest move/feature.

So something like Innerleithen XC could be graded Red-7-C

Red- it’s pretty average for the most part
7/10 – it’ll hurt if you’re hungover as there’s a fair sized hill, expect at least one fig roll stop.
C (A- 6ft+ drops, B – some significant drops, C- 1-2ft but no rolling, D- it’s rollable but you’ll have to be carefull, E – you could roll it blindfold)

But that’s a ball ache even for a sport which involves more standing around than even the bimbliest MTB ride, ‘Red’ get’s across 99% of the information.

andylc – is that the rock garden that was part of the national XC race (the one with the small bit of Northshore at the top)?

If so, I think thats a great example personally….I saw some of the countrys best XC racers fail to ride that properly…the same XC racers that are quite happy to ride pretty much any feature on trail centres in the UK. I also saw people that struggle to ride small kickers that cleaned the rock garden every lap.

The difference is riding it at that pace and that level of fatigue makes it incredibly difficult.

Steve1 – no, I said they were for noobs aswell.

Like you, I consider myself an average mtber. I’m deeply uncomfortable on jumps/drops of more than about 3ft, but I’ve out ridden folk on technical descents that think nothing of the jumps at cwm carn DH.

I’ve not yet found a trail centre that presents much of a technical challenge, although they’re good fun in short doses for other reasons. Does that make me an expert? I’m not really sure, but then, I’m more focused on fun than which position I occupy in the international trail centre grading system of abilities.

I think whilst there’s a bit of ambiguity when it comes to fitness vs technique, the gradings are generally about right.

Of course in the rarefied atmosphere of STW this may not be obvious, but most will require someone riding them to be significantly fit and/or skilled.

Harder trails will of course exist but from the lack of use some trails get, it’s clear there’s not that much demand.

I honestly have no idea gazhurst. It’s just memorable for me as the only trail centre black section I have ever seen where you just look at it and think **** me!! I still remember looking at the first bit, which is (or at least was) a series of huge boulders arranged in a line, with a good metre or so drop on both sides, you couldn’t hit it at speed but going slowly was freaking difficult too, I made it on the second or third attempt and then heard some cockney geezers at the beginning, one of them just shouted ‘you must be fackin jokin mate!’ and they all left!
I don’t think I once completed the whole of it without coming off somewhere, but after I think 3 attempts I at least could say I had ridden all of it, although not all at the same time…

I think I may have to admit defeat, concede that trail centres are for all abilities even the blacks, and get my kicks elsewhere.

Trail grading in the UK IS embarassing. Even more odd is the use of colour grading when people are organising natural rides on meetup groups etc. How can you compare a blue trail centre trail to a ride around footpaths with all sorts of differing stuff on them?

We need to accept that there are two species of mountain bike rider though – those that pretty much only ride trail centres, and those that use their bikes as a tool to get out into wilder spots and do actual mountain biking, whether woods, mountains, glens or countryside. It’s not about bragging. Those that ride all over the place learn how to handle their bikes, and those that only ride trail centres, well… no need to say much about them really. Take a ride down some blue trails in France and you’ll be jittering from adrenaline at the end of them if you managed to ride all the gaps and rocks! Also, trails with monster jumps that are rollable – I’m not sure how they should be graded. Calling them black would keep people off them, yet a novice might well be quite happy riding down them. But if there are lines that can include 25ft gaps, hips and big drops etc then black might be best as it will draw in those who are likely to make the most of them.

Public bodies that build trails (e.g. Forestry Commission) are the worst for getting it wrong. The mid to high end of the skill range, which makes up probably half of riders, are simply not catered for. Everything seems to be made for beginners, families and the like, but beginners are only going to be beginners for a year or two!

The comparison with (English) climbing grades is quite appropriate:

Difficult = piss easy
Very Difficult = Very Easy
Severe = Still quite easy
Very Severe = Normally fairly steady

Even quite a few ‘extremely severes’ are far more straightforward than you’d think.

Of course, that grade scale developed mainly because everything felt bloody hard in the 1950s with crap protection/ropes and shoes, but it serves a useful purpose in creating an aura of difficulty for a novice

The english grading system has two grades – the adjectival grade and the technical grade. To a first approximation, the adjectival is how likely it is you’ll die if you fall off / make a mistake, and the technical grade is how hard the hardest move is. For example a VDiff 4a will have no hard moves in it and ledges for when you’re placing gear, whereas a E8 6c will have hardly any gear and if you mess up a move you’ll likely die / break something.

I guess in mtb terms the glentress black might be say a severe 4a, as there’s nothing very hard on it but you could hurt yourself a bit, and freight train in whistler might be a E4 6a – there’s an obligatory step up jump and drop off a freight container – get that wrong and you’ll break something.

Something of a pointless debate tho. People know what to expect from a UK trail centre black now.

We need to accept that there are two species of mountain bike rider though – those that pretty much only ride trail centres, and those that use their bikes as a tool to get out into wilder spots and do actual mountain biking, whether woods, mountains, glens or countryside.

I don’t think theres necessarily two types of MTB’er, myself and all my riding friends alternate depending on weather, time available etc, but I’d expect two different types of rides for sure.

It is almost impossible to decide what an ‘expert’ is. My username is only partly ironic, but as far as I can see I am in the top 25% in terms of skill level when it comes to somewhere like Glentress. I would not classify myself as being expert, but do you judge that in the context of say, Steve Peat or in terms of where I stand in the population as a whole? To me it makes sense that if 95% of potential users couldn’t ride the trail, then it is reasonable to call it black.

I’m disappointed that this thread has remained so civil. It falls way below my expectations for STW.

Not once has anyone mentioned a cockwomble or bombers yet. 😆

To a first approximation, the adjectival is how likely it is you’ll die if you fall off / make a mistake, and the technical grade is how hard the hardest move is. For example a VDiff 4a will have no hard moves in it and ledges for when you’re placing gear, whereas a E8 6c will have hardly any gear and if you mess up a move you’ll likely die / break something.

Sorry, that’s wrong. The adjectival grade is how hard the route is taking everything including danger in to account. The technical grade is, as you say, the hardest move or series of moves.

Jeez! Arguing about rock climbing grades on a biking forum.

I think I may have to admit defeat, concede that trail centres are for all abilities even the blacks, and get my kicks elsewhere.

It would seem the logical thing to do.
I ride a mixture of everything and just take it for what it is. I’m just glad to be out on the bike.

How long does it take until you start finding blacks easy? I’ve been riding regularly for 2 years now and still find most blacks hard just to get through without a foot down, never mind start thinking about doing it fast or jumping (my wheels don’t leave the ground yet)

this makes no sense to me, it should be for everyone from novice through to the “expert”?

As we’ve discovered Black means different things at different locations, the Reds at Antur Stiniog is a good example, it would be most definitely black anywhere else, but given what’s also there, it’s Red grading is appropriate to it’s location.

Jeez! Arguing about rock climbing grades on a biking forum

Don’t say that too loud, far too many old bores on here already, we don’t need the UKC lot pitching in.

Gradings should be of little concern to the real climber. I remember when one had one’s manservant interpret the topo.

grannyjone – Member
How long does it take until you start finding blacks easy? I’ve been riding regularly for 2 years now and still find most blacks hard just to get through without a foot down, never mind start thinking about doing it fast or jumping (my wheels don’t leave the ground yet)

You need to push your limits a bit. Take some sessions with mates at an unofficial jump park, or steep forest trail network. Get into a train and follow people off stuff, then walk back up and see what you’ve just ridden. Have a shandy beforehand if you need to overcome the fear a bit! 😉

Do you mean the little bit with the raised boardwalk bit with the tight turn?

Is that the rock garden that was part of the national XC race (the one with the small bit of Northshore at the top)?

no

I know this bit but that’s not the bit I’m thinking of. It’s a bit of black somewhere near Snap, Crackle and Pop IIRC. It’s basically a switchback with a 3 or 4 foot wooden wall on the outside edge, then a rock garden. I find it very hard (impossible!) getting round the switchback to line myself up for the otherwise easy “point and shoot” rock garden.

I don’t think theres necessarily two types of MTB’er, myself and all my riding friends alternate depending on weather, time available etc, but I’d expect two different types of rides for sure.

A different riding style for a different ride raises the question of different types of rider resulting from the tradition of country side basher vs trail centre hooner. Do the skills transfer, and do they make a difference to your relative skill level when riding the other.

The question now is if I’m an ‘expert’ map basher, and I only an ‘average’ trail centre hooner, or vice versa.

One could fill a whole wall with pigeon holes if you think about it.

Sottish grades can’t be harder than welsh, Rhapsody E11 7a is safe as houses, where as t’Indian face is E9 6c and certain death 😀

PS. Spooky wood is the benchmark.

t’s not about bragging. Those that ride all over the place learn how to handle their bikes, and those that only ride trail centres, well… no

I’ve got to disagree with you there.

I started mountainbiking arround Derby, mostly it’s riding bikes round the woods, hills etc, nothing too technical, just the occasional bit of rooty singletrack. The kind of stuff you see in the Mint Sauce cartoons.

Then I moved upto the MTBing Meca that is Sheffield, home of the rocky, the rooty and the wet.

It wasn’t untill I was 22 and moved to the comparatively barren SE that I actually learnt how to get round a corner quickly or jump!

Which again raises the question of what’s difficult? I could have ridden rocky rooty gnadgery trails for breakfast, show me a fast corner and I looked like that guy who lost GT’s Oakleys.

Still haven’t ridden many trail centers (Cwm Rhyader, Brechfa, Swinley Cannock, Llandegla, Dalby, Kielder, Stainburn*, GT and Inners).

*the exception that proves the rule, it’s a trail center for people that don’t like trail centers. Whereas soemwhere like Tunnel Hill is maybe ‘natural’ trails for someone who hates bridleways.

It’s the same as the Flats Vs SPD argument, neither’s better, if you’re confident enough in SPD’s then they’re not a factor, does that make their users more skilled? Or does the ability to ride flats impart some otherwise unattainable prowess?

PS. Spooky wood is the benchmark.

Most over hyped trail ever, I rode it twice to make sure I’d not missed something, the switchback climb to the top is more of a challenge/fun! It makes Swinley Blue look over graded.

spoon that is the point 😉