I always concentrate really hard on my satnav to measure the exact spacing between streetlamps

Whilst you do raise a valid point about it being a bit silly – the point I was trying to make is that simply having any kind of streetlights is not enough to make it a 30 by default. They have to be close streetlights.

If I understand Butcher’s question he is asking “what does the white-with-black-stripe NSL sign mean when there are streetlights?”

Does that ever happen? NSL sign = 60 limit (for cars), as close to universally as I can remember off the top of my head anyway; the start of an “NSL” section in a built-up area would be demarked with a (30) sign, not an (/) NSL sign.

Sorry 😳

Also, the lights were obviously closer than 200 yards, as I noticed after it was too late.

Hmm https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sign&tbm=isch – I got bored, let me know how far down I have to scroll to find a streetlamp.

Newest road signage laws mean that on a lot of roads only one repeater will be sufficient where they used to have to be at regular intervals. This really only applies to unlit roads however. As street lighting is a good sign it’s a 30.

For future reference, if you get stopped, it’s worthwhile checking that the gate signs (ie the ones that mark the beginning of the 30) are lit. If they have illumination and it’s busted, you’ll get off with it. Likewise if the sign isn’t reflective (or lit as an alternative). Finally, it’s worth checking that the road has the correct speed restriction order in place. Without it the national speed limit applies, regardless of road signage. For Scottish drivers, first port of call is a freedom of information request to Transport Scotland. There are *lots* of non compliant roads. In Scotland also, don’t expect the procurator fiscal to know the law surrounding this. They are useless in that regard and will try to prosecute regardless. Then you get to embarrass them in court. 😉

Molgrips – were you speeding in your Passat? That’s almost cause for joy in itself – the car can go fast enough to break speed limits! 😀 (sorry, couldn’t help myself)

Funny thing is if you ignored the posted speed limits and drove to the conditions rather than a single arbitrary figure you’d more than likely have spotted the camera and acted accordingly 🙂

Actually, given p8ddy’s post, can I just check you weren’t waiting in a queue to overtake at the time? 😈

Molgrips – were you speeding in your Passat? That’s almost cause for joy in itself – the car can go fast enough to break speed limits!

130mph top speed, did I miss a joke?

Guess the limit here (not where I got a ticket)

[url=https://flic.kr/p/nXm62c]40mph[/url] by molgrips, on Flickr

60, obviously – no signs.

Nothing marking otherwise, assume 30 (although your filename suggests otherwise).

Does that ever happen? NSL sign = 60 limit (for cars), as close to universally as I can remember off the top of my head anyway; the start of an “NSL” section in a built-up area would be demarked with a (30) sign, not an (/) NSL sign.

This is my thoughts. But I live in a fairly rural settings. The village I grew up in for example, is a 30 zone. Come to the end of the village and it opens up to NSL. However, street lighting remains all the way along, for over a mile. It’s not a built up area, but I’m totally confused. Street lighting. Houses. What defines a built up area? It’s always been regarded a 60 limit for public cars and police anyway.

Similarly, many major NSL roads pass through villages. Usually you’re confronted by a 30 (or occasionally 40) sign as you enter each one. Very occasionally though, you will pass (what I would call) a small built-up area with street lighting. Are you supposed to slow down (I often do, to a speed that feels safe). But why the inconsistency? Why wouldn’t you just put a sign there. Where do you have to have a debate on a forum to figure out what you’re supposed to be doing? Does anyone have a link to the actual law, and do I have to drop an 183 metre piece of string at every lamp post to see if it reaches the next one?

This built up area crap has been eating away at me since I did my naughty boys course. I didn’t understand it then, and I don’t understand it now.

Not sure if the link has been given, but I found something suggesting that the policy is you can’t put repeaters on any 30 streetlit 30 limit because of the risk of losing court cases on bits of road where there are no repeaters. That’s despite expert advice suggesting that there would be a benefit from putting repeaters on bits of road (like molgrips original) which seem like the limit should be higher.

Oh and regarding the photo, please ignore my earlier answer – I forgot to check whether I was starting from home.

Butcher – ignore the built up area nonsesne!!!!

The village I grew up in for example, is a 30 zone. Come to the end of the village and it opens up to NSL. However, street lighting remains all the way along,

If there is a national speed limit sign where it ‘opens up to NSL’ then this sign overrules the street lighting and there will be repeater signs on the street lighting.

Its quite simple really, but please please please understand being in a built up area or not does not determine the speed limit!

molgirps, in the picture the limit is 30.

It’s a 40 of course, from the filename, but there are plenty of streetlights. Not really obvious from the spacing either.

There are repeaters though, I had to crop one out of the picture 🙂

From what I understand though – if there were no repeaters, it would have to be 30, but you woudn’t know until you’d driven for long enough to be sure there weren’t any. A bit stupid.

but you woudn’t know until you’d driven for long enough to be sure there weren’t any. A bit stupid.

Correct, so assume its 30. But you would have passed the massive 30 sign indicating the start of a 30…..

But you would have passed the massive 30 sign indicating the start of a 30

Unless you pulled out of one of those houses.

That’s a silly example then as there are 40mph signs but you chose to not show them.

If there were no speed limit signs I would assume 30mph and do a maximum of 30.

how is it stupid you would assume a lower limit until you see it’s a 40?

Better then people assuming a 30mph is a NSL and then slamming the brakes on at a 30mph repeater or hitting someone.

But you would have passed the massive 30 sign indicating the start of a 30
Unless you pulled out of one of those houses.

In which case

1. You’d know what the speed limit is and
2. You’d see the repeater signs that you cropped.

Butcher – ignore the built up area nonsesne!!!!

I’m trying to. I really am. But the government don’t seem to think it’s nonsense. The law enforcement people at my speed awareness course didn’t seem to think it was nonsense. As much as I’d like to, I can’t dismiss it because some dude on a forum thinks it is. 😉

Unless you pulled out of one of those houses.

You would have passed one getting to those houses.

From what I understand though – if there were no repeaters, it would have to be 30, but you woudn’t know until you’d driven for long enough to be sure there weren’t any. A bit stupid.

not really. assume its a 30 unless you see something telling you it isn’t.

you could do with going on a speed awareness course.

Butcher I dont think it is nonsense. I know, categorically 100%, without any doubt at all, that it is nonsense.

The law enforcement people

The Police?

5 pages

😆

Unless you were born there, or arrived by helicopter (or asleep in somebody else’s car, or on a bike from the BW just out of shot, etc.) 😉

you could do with going on a speed awareness course

No, because I wouldn’t be driving at 40 on it if I wasn’t sure.

My point is that the rules are a bit crap, because you might not know. You shouldn’t have to guess or err on the side of caution – it should be clear. How f’in hard is it to put repeater signs up ffs?

ah didums

🙄

From what I understand though – if there were no repeaters, it would have to be 30, but you woudn’t know until you’d driven for long enough to be sure there weren’t any. A bit stupid.

How frequently are 40 repeaters required?

How far would you travel, and for how long, at 30mph to cover this distance?

How much longer would it take to travel the entire length of the road at 30, compared to at 40?

No, because I wouldn’t be driving at 40 on it if I wasn’t sure

please take it to court. please.

All the above discussion is irrelevant, of course, because we’re getting closer and closer to 20mph being the default urban speed limit. So, you’ll have to travel below 20, unless there are repeaters for 30.

Did you weigh yourself after reading the penalty notice?

Butcher I dont think it is nonsense. I know, categorically 100%, without any doubt at all, that it is nonsense.

I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m just saying I can’t take it as truth until I see the evidence.

please take it to court

Why? I was in the wrong, I’ll take the punishment like a grown up 🙂

Not like that grown up though.

I’ve driven down that stretch a few times now often at night in the pouring rain and/or snow after leaving the M62.The big 30mph signs painted on the road and 30mph road signs made me slow down and stick at 30 till signs say different.But then again I’m not a very good driver.

It’s not a built up area, but I’m totally confused. Street lighting. Houses. What defines a built up area? It’s always been regarded a 60 limit for public cars and police anyway.

What you’re confusing, I think, is that the legal status of the built-up area (technically “restricted roads”) applies unless the road is signed otherwise.

The relevant bit of law is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/part/VI

Rule 81 states that a restricted road carries a 30mph limit. 82 defines a restricted road via the lighting as we’ve discussed, unless the responsible local authority decides to override this in which case it requires signage.

Rule 85(5) explains that in your example, the lights and the absence of signs implies that it’s a restricted road as above. So, unless there are signs to the contrary then it would appear as though your locals (and the local plod) all have it wrong and it is in fact a 30mph limit. Which is interesting, I’d have probably interpreted it as 60 too. Gosh.

Going on to Molgrips’ example,

Guess the limit here.

Built-up area, so 30mph (check the lighting) in the absence of any other information. But as he later explained, there are 40mph repeater signs so, of course, that takes precedence.