Plenty of sourses state that their HEPA air filters take out viruses.

That’s only going to work well if everyone is using a fitted breathing mask and all expired air is passed through a filter….

The negligence is on the government

They are adamant it’s ok to go then change the goal posts.

The rehtoric should be essential travel only if they really want to contain anything.

It seems to me like they are changing goal posts Willey niley and it’s those that follow the guidance that it’s ok to go because gov said so …..that are being made to pay.

Can’t blame them not everyone has the ability to see a bigger picture.

Further on the blaming of young people, stats for England in the last 2 weeks split by age group on a recent BBC article. More people over 30 than under 30 testing positive.

Given that there are getting on for twice as many people over 30 than under… I’m not quite sure what your point is.

Oh, I’ve got one of those seatbelt things. The sensor in the Mazda is a bit keen and thinks my curry needs to put a seatbelt on for the ride home from the shop.

It seems to me like they are changing goal posts Willey niley and it’s those that follow the guidance that it’s ok to go because gov said so …..that are being made to pay.

Can’t blame them not everyone has the ability to see a bigger picture.

While I do agree with this in some sense, i do think there comes a point when we have to get busy living rather than busy dying. We can’t just sit inside for the next 12/18 months in the hope a vaccine solves all our problem by then the damage to the economy would likely terminal everyone would be on food stamps and not a single shop would survive. Its about a balance and thats what we are in now.

IF the decision was lets shut everything and sit inside essential the gov’ need to go fully socialist support those who can’t support themselves (which would basically be everyone by the end of it and likely set up universal basic income) as without people out and about spending unemployment will rocket even more. Its such tough balance keep people a live vs keep the country ticking over so the recession doesn’t get even worse… best it yet to come to a double covid / brexit recession.

I think we are in tough and stressful time and its causing people to react to stuff they wouldn’t normally react to. To say people are stupid, selfish or negligent because they want a holiday is a massive over reaction. And like i have said countless partaking in a dangerous sport such as mountain biking could also be seen as selfish or negligent, but you know people don’t want to look at their own actions.

Here’s an article mirroring what @trail_rat said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/02/selfish-covidiots-blame-british-government-greek

I’m in agreement. The government have taken every opportunity to place the blame in as many places as possible (eg replacing PHE with NIHP), whilst encouraging everyone to do their bit to help the economy by getting back to work/school/play.

 It’s an incredibly hard balancing act – I can only imagine with dread what a labour gov would have done when put under pressure by all the trade unions

It must be even harder after 11 u-turns and a stint in hospital. Poor Boris struggled with the social distancing himself, didn’t he? Shaking hands relentlessly. Infected his pregnant girlfriend (fiancee?) too. I’m sure the current gov have come under literally no pressure from party donors. Or given valuable contracts to their mates?

I dread to think how many more people may die (more than the 50k or so who have sadly lost their lives) at the hands of the current government when it kicks off again.

Further on the blaming of young people, stats for England in the last 2 weeks split by age group on a recent BBC article. More people over 30 than under 30 testing positive.

I imagine the concern is not lots of young people getting covid, which is perceived as low risk and would actually help with building herd immunity – the concern is the under 30s are passing on to the over 30s, which then is likely to create high healthcare demand and more deaths. I don’t have any evidence this is exactly what is happening, but I suspect TT&T/PHE do have some basis for the claims, and certainly the data is not inconsistent with that problem.

Careful Chrismac, with comments like that you risk being called negligent and selfish. There are groups of people who seem to expect us to just sit at home with the lights off until this thing blows over totally ironing the mental health implications that will have

Literally no one has ever said that.

As someone who has clinical depression I’m well aware of the mental health issues thanks. I’m also aware of the mental health implications of going out into a world full of people who seem to not give a shit, when my partner is in the highest risk category and could die because someone fancied a holiday.

Given that there are getting on for twice as many people over 30 than under… I’m not quite sure what your point is.

Point is that it’s not ONLY young people behaving irresponsibly. And going further, it’s frankly ridiculous to say to young people “don’t be irresponsible, you’ll kill your gran” and “it’s fine to go out on the lash and go to work, we need to get the economy going again” in the same bloody press release!

Did I say shut everything?

No I said non essential travel.

Did I say shut everything?

No I said non essential travel.

If no non-essential travel then why not no non-essential food, non-essential bike rides, whatever? At this point it’s really difficult to know what to do for the best, individually and as a member of society. The various politicians and other talking heads seem to be at best unreliable so then you’re left with choosing which expert to believe. I travelled by plane – in a tin tube with 100 other people, but air filtered every 2 minutes through HEPA. What is right? What is actually the low risk thing to do?

Confused 🙁

Non of the above require you to sit in a box with recirculated air for 1hr plus.

Swallowed the coolaid on the HEPA.

It might well be. But it has to get from you-everyone around you to the HEPA filter.

It’s the airplane but I take as the risky bit. But then I’m not trying to justify a holiday. I’ll pick my risks. That’s a high one for me. I don’t want covid and even more I don’t want to be bringing it back to my community

Non essential is non essential – how are we choosing which non essential things we do?

HEPA – I don’t know the absolute truth – do you?

Like you, I pick my risks. 2 trips on a half empty plane seems lower to me than a lot of other possible ways to spend my time.

Non essential is non essential – how are we choosing which non essential things we do?

I’d say factoring risk would be a good start.

Biking in open air, low risk.
Sitting in a plane breathing recycled air, high risk.

Is there a way of mitigating the risk on the plane? Sure. Can you rely on people to do it? Probably not.

Well unless HEPA magically magics the air from you and everyone around yous mouth without transmitting it through the air(teleportation) then there is your risk vector.

I get it you went on holiday . You decided the risk was worth it and your here justifying it.

But sadly in my risk matric it’s still high and non essential…..many businesses feel the same we are international company …..only immediately critical operations (note that’s not business critical that’s operations – that’s -if we don’t put feet on the ground bad things happen) travel is allowed. Trust me we wouldn’t be doing that if the risk wasn’t unacceptable.

We drove from Scotland to the southern French Alps for 2 weeks in late July. We were very careful to comply with all the guidance available at the time, especially as I am in the Shielding category.

We travelled by car (Eurotunnel), stayed in self contained accommodation, wore masks in any inside are other than the apartment. We registered for click and collect with Intermarche, and ordered and collected food without having to go in a supermarket.

I went in a bike shop twice (drop off, then collect the bike), a tourist info office on 2 occasions and the reception at the accommodation to check in and check out. Always masked. We even wore masks on the chairlift, and gondolas were solo or family group.

With 2 kids we were able to go climbing, via ferrataing and biking, as well as paddleboarding and swimming, always keeping a 2m+ distance from others.

We ate out a handful of times, always outside, and always early to avoid busier times.

All in I think we were exposed less to others than if we had stayed at home and the kids had played with their friends in the street.

Social distancing, hand hygiene and mask wearing were very well observed almost universally in my experience.

Returning to the UK was a bit of a shock. It was like nothing was happening. On pur way home, we did a drive through McDonald’s on the first day of the Eat Out to Help Out scheme, and I will never forget the packed masses of grinning bargain hunters squeezed into every space available inside the building as we drove past. A total WTAF moment.

Well unless HEPA magically magics the air from you and everyone around yous mouth without transmitting it through the air(teleportation) then there is your risk vector.

Yep, there’s a risk. Not denying it for a second. How big a risk? Don’t know. Who to believe? Don’t know that either. After I’ve run that gauntlet I’d say that my risk alone on the edge of a village is significantly lower than at home in London.

Anyway, I’m not here to defend my choices – I don’t feel it’s warranted and the judgement of strangers on the Internet is not important. My point was to say that we are all making choices in a cloud of doubt and singling out one activity as being evil seems a bit simplistic.

Non essential is non essential – how are we choosing which non essential things we do?

100% agree with this. If a holiday is non essential so is riding a bike from anywhere other than your house if we are totally being black and white about it.

Biking in open air, low risk.
Sitting in a plane breathing recycled air, high risk.

Some people will travel by car to a location to ride that means coming into contact with other people, shops, petrol station and so on. biking maybe low risk but the bits before not.

Some people will travel by car to a location to ride that means coming into contact with other people, shops, petrol station and so on. biking maybe low risk but the bits before not.

Depends on your point of reference. For me being stuck in a box where no one has any enforcement for who wears their mask or not , where the air is recirculated and your contact time in the vacinity of the potential carriers is much higher than the couple of minutes you stop to get fuel anywhere…..

But you seem to have equated all risk as equal and that cutting out the highest risk activities means cutting out all activities to try and add weight to your arguement.

But now you mention it ….I do just ride from home.

But you seem to have equated all risk as equal and that cutting out the highest risk activities means cutting out all activities to try and add weight to your arguement

<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>I don’t think I have said that. There is risk in everything its up to people to decide for themselves and do what they think not for others to pass judgement. Is that hard to understand.</span>

What I have said countless times is others will value some activities more than others (like going on holiday) and assume some stuff is more risky than others (like going as fast as you can over jumps down a hill). My partner thinks it’s more dangerous for me to cycle to work than get on a plane… I disagree. Only difference between me and others here is I’m not saying she’s selfish or negligent. Btw she works for the NHS so I’m pretty sure she deserves a relaxing holiday on a beach wouldn’t you agree?

There is risk in everything its up to people to decide for themselves and do what they think not for others to pass judgement. Is that hard to understand.

To be fair, when additional laws/rules are in place I think it’s reasonable to try and follow those and not make your own judgements. The problem we’ve had is that the rules initially were not clearly defined – in part because the scenario changed so fast. Also right in the middle you had the whole govt basically saying it WAS acceptable to use your own judgement because of Cummings’ ****.

But yes, in principle in the early days on here there was quite a lot of judging. As we go back into lockdown it would be nice if we could avoid that.

Some people will travel by car to a location to ride that means coming into contact with other people, shops, petrol station and so on. biking maybe low risk but the bits before not.

Are those areas where you will be spending several hours in close proximity to these third parties and breathing recycled air?

Dunno about you but even in the Buttfuck Nowhere that I live I can fill my tank without setting foot in a shop and even if I did I don’t have to deal with Bazza and the boys on tour getting pissed up and making a nuisance of themselves up and down the aisle.

Pisses me off too, our receptionist went for a last minute deal to Rhodes…. why would you even bloody risk it! She’s mid 50’s too and probably even quite at risk, it’s saying something when me at 37 seem to be more switched on than someone old enough to be my **** grandma!!

Timo?

No gatherings of more than six from next Monday yet still okay to have 100+ people on a plane for many hours?
More confused, illogical rules. Apply logic to any of this and planes would not be flying and pubs would not be open.

Apply logic to any of this and planes would not be flying and pubs would not be open.

But I deem my holiday more important than that.

It’s not about judging people it about watching half the country back in different phases of lockdown , numbers rising and countries getting put on quarantine lists……and yet folk are surprised and folks still insist on jetting off

As above logic – if you can’t equate risks appropriately .

She’s mid 50’s too and probably even quite at risk, it’s saying something when me at 37 seem to be more switched on than someone old enough to be my **** grandma!!

Your 37 and she’s mid 50s and she can be your grandma? Crikey they start them off young round your way.

That or you’re not switched on.

Why is she “quite at risk” you know her medical condition?

Perhaps she wants to enjoy her life and going on holiday is doing so, doesn’t mean she’s reckless boozing it up with loads of other mid 50 year olds in a pub spreading the covid love.

Are those areas where you will be spending several hours in close proximity to these third parties and breathing recycled air?

Dunno about you but even in the Buttfuck Nowhere that I live I can fill my tank without setting foot in a shop and even if I did I don’t have to deal with Bazza and the boys on tour getting pissed up and making a nuisance of themselves up and down the aisle.

I don’t know how many times I have said this but here goes.

1. Im not saying everything has the same risk some stuff has higher risk than others.

2. You are still coming into contact with people so there is A RISK. (basically a risk every time you leave the house)

3. Suggesting someone is negligent or selfish for going on holiday is wrong. People could pass the same judgment onto someone who spends a weekend racing / riding around trails risking injury and impacting the NHS.

4. You can’t begrudge someone for doing something they are allowed to do if you’re doing the same. (i.e them going on holiday you travelling to ride a bike)

I just don’t understand why people cant reflect on their own actions and realise how others could also view them as negligent… but hey that requires people to also take some blame and realise they could be asymptomatic infecting everyone they meet.

To be fair I said it was the government that were negligent in the whole thing.

Of course me and you can go on holiday. Some folk will blindly follow the gov advice verbatim.

I make my own choices and although the gov say it’s safe from where I sit that was a politically and financially motivated statement rather than an “it’s actually safe” statement.

Of course the whole lot not helped by odious shites of airlines bosses based in ireland saying stuff like quarantine is rediculous and no one can enforce that on you etc