Gaza

Engagement through back channels, and allowing other states to support them in non-military ways, is how governments attempt to deal with groups with both political and terrorist intentions, in the hope that they then favour the political in a peaceful process. Israel did not “create” Hamas, it had to deal with it. There are parallels in all attempts (successful or otherwise) to deal with terrorism through peaceful means. The alternative is going after them militarily, and the senseless deaths that come along with that. Something that needs avoiding (as the last six months make all to clear).

Reassuring to know governments are so warm and cuddly…

On that basis, I’m happy to forget the long history of covert arms supply to some very iffy causes, invasion and attrocities committed by Israel’s main supporters!

At this rate, perhaps we could come to appreciate the positive benefits brought to society by apartheid and Israel’s secret nuclear weapons programme, not to mention Israel’s brave stance on keeping do-gooders at bay:

Israel is not party to:

The Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT)
Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR)
Biological & Toxin Weapons Convention (BTWC)
Intl Criminal Court (ICC)
Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM)
Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC)

But despite being a heavily armed colonial apartheid nation who continue to violently remove families from their homeland they are thankfully a democracy, promoting freedom

So why on earth are you disputing that Israel helped the rise of Hamas then?

I’m disputing the far-fetched claim that ‘Hamas is Israel’s “creation”’, which isn’t borne out by the article.

Here’s part of the section you quoted:

“Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas.”

As you say, Israel imprisoned Yassin in 1984 when he was found with weapons (still before he founded Hamas) so they clearly weren’t cooperating with him then. What the article is talking about is before then, when Yassin was running a charity recognised by Israel.

Not arresting people running charities is a good thing, right? It hardly implies responsibility for creating what Yassin went on to do a decade later after he was released from prison.

To PCMA’s point

“It’s clear that Israel pursued a short time, divide and conquer approach…”

More like this, rather than claims of creating or funding them. There’s enough to discuss without inventing things.

Meanwhile – weird to see Saudi complaining that Iran is precipitating all this because they want to frustrate Saudi-Israel normalisation. You wouldn’t have expected to hear that 15 years ago!

Truly!

So when it comes to Israel funding Hamas, we’re clear that Israel never funded Hamas then…

OK, got it

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"https://t.co/7lTQs9E5Zf

— Haaretz.com (@haaretzcom) October 9, 2023

So where do we stand on the IDF targeting aid convoys and civilians seeking aid?

Netanyahu will say and do anything to stay in power.

The record clearly shows that.

His ‘loyalty’ is to himself – not Israel, not middle Eastern peace; he is egotistical and power mad.

Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy”

Seen that quote from Weitz many times, but it has no named source and no other journalist has confirmed or second sourced it.

Look Israel let money into Gaza, that went to Hamas as the defacto administration there since the 2006 elections. Arguably Israel shouldn’t have recognised Hamas as being legimate, based on their narrow win and their behaviour since (towards other Palestinians, not just Israelis). That doesn’t mean what you claim it means. And it isn’t a mistake any Israeli government will make again, which is why any future peace that includes Hamas controlling Gaza again looks like a moonshot.

Cast your minds back to before those 2006 elections though, Israel and the USA were doing everything they could to bolster Fatah’s chances, and restrict the reach of Hamas candidates. It is a very selective reading of the past to suggest that the success of Hamas politically was engineered or desired by the Israeli authorities. But in the years since they have had to deal with Hamas. That is likely over though, and the future for the people of Gaza (most of which have never voted for Hamas, or supported its terrorism) is now more desperate than ever. When there is a change of leadership in Israel, and the warmongers there have less power and sway, who will they deal with going forward? Can that be Hamas? If not, who? Hard to see any positive path now.

Seen that quote from Weitz many times, but it has no named source and no other journalist has confirmed or second sourced it.

Hmmm, strange then that an Ex Israeli Prime Minister and an Ex Israeli General have both said basically the same, as can be evidenced earlier in the thread.

However, this is all beginning to go around in circles, with no real progress, so, moving on…

where do we stand on the IDF targeting aid convoys and civilians seeking aid?

where do we stand on the IDF targeting aid convoys and civilians seeking aid?

I assumed that was a rhetorical question. Everybody will be against it.

There’s enough to discuss without inventing things.

I didn’t write the article, I suggest a strongly worded letter to the Wall Street Journal.

As you say, Israel imprisoned Yassin in 1984 when he was found with weapons (still before he founded Hamas) so they clearly weren’t cooperating with him then.

You seem to have forgotten what you posted, here’s a reminder:

in the 70s Yassin was running a charity proving things like medical care and youth clubs and didn’t form Hamas until the late 80s. As the article acknowledges later, there was no reason to go after someone who at the time was ‘100% peaceful towards Israel.’

In the early 80s Yassin was, despite you pointing out he was supposed “100% peaceful towards Israel”, actively involved in illegal possession of arms, the establishment of a military organization and calling for the annihilation of Israel, according to his conviction in an Israeli military court.

Israel very clearly made a huge miscalculation and mistake when they tried to sow divisions among Palestinians in an attempt to draw support away from, at that time, the hugely popular PLO.

And it eventually worked – the PLO lost control of the Gaza strip. It just didn’t have the consequences that Israel obviously hoped for.

Why can’t you just accept that Israel made a huge mistake at that time with regards to the emerging Hamas movement?

Israel makes lots of huge mistakes and it is currently making the biggest mistake of its entire history. Its response to the Oct 7 attack could not possibly have been worse.

They have managed to turn global public opinion firmly against themselves, even public opinion in their closest and most vital ally the United States. They have not achieved their stated aim of defeating Hamas nor will they.

They are acting like recruiting sergeants for Hamas which is now more popular than it was before Oct 7. Gaza has over one million children, they have ‘only’ managed to kill about fourteen and a half thousand, they are currently fighting the children which they didn’t manage to kill in the half a dozen military incursions into Gaza of the last 20 years. In the future they will fighting the children that survive this one.

As the result of Netanyahu and his far-right government’s policies of the last six months Israel will now never ever have peace and security. They have guaranteed its eventual inevitable demise.

Smarter more level-headed zionists might have taken a more pragmatic approach, especially as the Middle East’s importance to the West’s energy needs will collapse in the coming decades.

The far-right Israeli governments of recent times (and they invariably became evermore right-wing) have totally screwed up . Zionism was the left-wing utopian dream which will be killed by far-right bigots.

where do we stand on the IDF targeting aid convoys and civilians seeking aid?

I assumed that was a rhetorical question. Everybody will be against it.

Glad to hear it, there’s been far too much divide and conquer going on elsewhere!

That said, surprised how tolerant the majority have been on the aid convoy issue…

The issue of the attack on the World Central Kitchen aid convoy because of Jose Andre’s closeness to the Biden administration is probably not quite as straightforward as just yet another aid convoy attacked by Israel.

There is no doubt imo that the attack was deliberate but it is plausible that the decision to do so was taken at a local level, as the Israeli government claims.

One of the officers who took the decision to order the attack is a right-wing religious settler from the occupied West Bank.

West Bank settlers are known to be exceptionally anti-Palestinian fanatical zionists – they kill Palestinians in the occupied West Bank on more or less a daily basis.

In the letter, Col Mandel, a religious nationalist who lives in a settlement in the occupied West Bank, called with more than 130 other reserve officers and commanders for the flow of aid into Gaza to be restricted.

The letter was sent on January 20 to the Israeli War Cabinet and the IDF chief of staff and implored them to “do everything in your power” not to allow “humanitarian supplies and the operation of hospitals inside Gaza City” following its evacuation.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/israel-hamas-war-gaza-idf-aid-strike-world-central-kitchen/

So the person who took the decision to attack the aid convoy was someone who passionately believed that Palestinian civilians should not receive any aid but was not necessarily, at least on this occasion, following orders.

I reckon that probably reflects the culture that exists in the IDF. They are an undisciplined, lawless, and incompetent, rabble who believe that they have a carte blanche to do whatever they want, including commit war crimes, because frankly they always get away with it.

“Engagement through back channels… is how governments attempt to deal with groups with both political and terrorist intentions…The alternative is going after them militarily”

Well, not quite. Another course of action would have been to recognise that despite their frequent incompetence and venality, Fatah running a functioning Palestinian National Authority would have been in Israel’s long term interest in security. (Fatah did settle down once it got into the boring business of government, much like Sinn Fein and the Taliban. A functioning PNA probably would have led to a “permanently interim” solution that would have suited Israel fine). If that is right, then there was no need to encourage division between Hamas and Fatah, or fail to interfere with Hamas’s rise.

By the way – throughout all this there is a weird assumption that Israel has the ability to determine the course of Palestinian politics. That’s not true. It is one of many influencing factors, and an important one, but the Palestinians themselves have agency. The Fatah-Hamas split did not occur merely because of the Israelis’ actions. Equally, as we have seen, despite all the PR Israel is just as cack-handed and amateurish in its attempts to play 4D chess as everyone else in the world.

despite all the PR Israel is just as cack-handed and amateurish in its attempts to play 4D chess as everyone else in the world

Whilst there may be an element of truth in the cack handed and amateurish approach:

Reporter: Netanyahu told Congress in 2002 Iraq was developing nuclear weapons—this was a lie—and wanted regime change in Iran. How can we trust someone who goaded us into war based on lies & how can we be confident he won’t do the same with Iran?

Patel: I’m not sure I understand pic.twitter.com/x8HZ1cc1ah

— Assal Rad (@AssalRad) April 17, 2024

(as an aside, can anyone think of any other global statesman still in power who played a role in the disastrous and illegal invasion of Iraq? …of course, it wasn’t so long ago that Mark Sedwill was the most powerful unelected employee of HM Government, but he’s moved on to pastures new)

Israel does have a vast influence on the global community both in terms of politics and the media and a regular supply of arms subsidized by tax payers outside of their nation; how do they pull this off, despite being recognized as an apartheid state?

On the whole this thread is going very well. However, I have sent a single message today to a user. Not a warning just a friendly reminder.

Be careful when you post. If you find yourself typing the words, ‘you..’  for example.. ‘You said…’, ‘Why don’t you…’. etc.. then just take a pause and re-think what you want to say. That’s how debate and discussion turn personal and become argument. Don’t let that spoil what is currently are very well behaved, mature thread.

As you were :-)

A slight crossover into cycling:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/chris-froome-michelle-froome-muslims-twitter-post-b2529584.html

“There are no innocent Gazans.”

From the above link. That claim is used by some Israeli politicians to justify the killing of 33 thousand people in Gaza, mostly women and children,

On the subject of West Bankers hating Palestinians… I have some experience there.

I have family living in Kiryat Arba. We went to visit them a few years ago and and on a trip to the nearby Machpela Cave in Hebron I was treated to an eye-opening tour of the area:

“Here are the steps which used to be the only place the Muslim rulers allowed Jews to pray for 700 years.”

“Here are the houses where the occupants were tortured and murdered in the ’29 massacre, no Jews were allowed back until very recently and even now it’s a fight”

“Here’s the spot where an Arab sniper shot a baby in a pram, look that’s where his house used to be (now an IDF guard post)”

“Here’s where the Arabs killed X”

“Here’s where the Arabs destroyed Y”

At the time he was a bus driver on the Jerusalem – Kiryat Arba route, this public bus service has to be bullet-proof and regularly came under stone/bullet attack.

TBF on the other hand this person used to be a member of Kach (the rabidly anti-Arab party which was banned from the Knesset in the 80’s for being racist) and thinks Baruch Goldstein was a hero, but it really showed me the depth of feeling in the area and that from the point of view of the settlers, they are the ones who’ve been unfairly treated and thrown out of their homeland by the Arabs/Palestinians.

Sadly, I don’t see a solution happening anytime soon.

I was always disappointed when Froome went to cycle for an Israeli cycling team, but that from his wife is pretty shocking. I’m sure it won’t reflect well on him either.

I’ve never heard of that lady before, but I notice that she and her husband are both repeat immigrants: first to South Africa and then to Monaco. I think he speaks French but I wonder how her Xhosa or Zulu or French are, or how well she has integrated with Monegasque society…?

The UK isn’t known for its hostility towards the Israeli government and yet according to the current UK government:

“There have been unprecedented levels of violence by extremist settlers in the West Bank over the past year. Some residents of illegal Israeli settlements and outposts have used harassment, intimidation and violence to put pressure on Palestinian communities to leave their land.”

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-sanctions-extremist-settlers-in-the-west-bank

Since Oct 7 483 Palestinians have been violently killed by either settlers or the IDF in the West Bank. Which exposes as a lie the claim that getting rid of Hamas is the solution – Hamas has no control of the West Bank.

I don’t know why the UK government is only imposing sanctions on some Israeli settlers and not the Israeli government btw since moving civilians into occupied territories is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention – a war crime.

And the UK government obviously recognises that as it clearly states that the Israeli settlements are “illegal”, which ultimately the Israeli government is responsible for.

I don’t know why the UK government is only imposing sanctions on some Israeli settlers and not the Israeli government btw since moving civilians into occupied territories is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention – a war crime.

I’d put a uk travel ban on every single person living in an illegal settlement, perhaps that would make a difference especially if the US would follow

It’ll be old news by the time this is read but it looks like Israel has started it’s retaliation in Iran with explosions being heard and Iran’s air defences activated.

I hope I don’t wake up to a complete bloody nightmare in the morning.

Not much information on the BBC still, lets hope it calms down…….

The ball has now been passed over to Iran, their bluff has been called so to speak.

If Iran responds we will have a tit for tat series of exchanges.

It is too early to say but it would appear that Iranian air defences may have coped with last night’s Israeli strike – apparently Iran is playing down the strike and saying that they have no plans to respond.

The International Atomic Energy Agency has confirmed there was no damage to any nuclear sites despite the widely circulated claim that they were the Israeli target.

If it is a case of Iranian air defences holding out, something which apparently the Iranians have been focusing on in recent years, then that is bad news for the Israelis – the only serious military advantage Israel has over Iran is in air power.

Although Israel might not have been attempting to actually inflict any significant damage. Yesterday on pro Palestinian social media I read a very bizarre claim that the United States had pleaded with Iran to let Israel carry out a token strike so not to lose face.

Yesterday on pro Palestinian social media I read a very bizarre claim that the United States had pleaded with Iran to let Israel carry out a token strike so not to lose face.

According to C4 last night Israel had agreed to a token strike in exchange for US acquiescence in an attack on Rafah. As the Palestinian ambassador put it – Palestinian blood is the cheapest currency.

The ball has now been passed over to Iran, their bluff has been called so to speak.

That’s one way to put it. Another is to say that their patience has been tested (again).

Iran has had a pretty robust missile defence system for quite a while. It’s used the S-300 era soviet missile as the basis for its own development; the Bavar 373 systems, which [on paper at least] is formidable. It’s said to have the ability to track stealth and multiple targets simultaneously The trouble Iran has is that it’s air force is well behind the capabilities of pretty much every one around them. They still operate pre-1979 F-14, F4 and F5s  (fun fact; the Iranians are the only air force other than the US Navy to operate the F14), they do have some developments of old F5, but they’re not much use. I know they have done a deal with Putin to exchange drones for a batch of Su-35, but I don’t know whether 1. they’ve been delivered or 2. they’re operational. Regardless, the IAF is no match for the Israeli air force if they decided to launch more than a few missiles. Israel can’t operate with impunity over Iran, but it wouldn’t take long.

Having said all that. Geographically, Iran is pretty much invasion-proof, and there’s thankfully no way Israel can take it on. This current tit-for tat can only escalate into a air war or just continually launching pointless missiles at each other- and the countries in between both Iran and Israel aren’t going to be well chuffed about that carrying on much longer I’d have thought.

Another “oops-sorry” moment from the IDF today, dropping bombs on the area in Rafah that was “supposed” to be a safe refuge.

Link below into the Washington posts report regarding the Israeli slaughter of 6yr old Hind Rajab and her family along with the ambulance crew sent to rescue them.

Link to report

If it is a case of Iranian air defences holding out, something which apparently the Iranians have been focusing on in recent years, then that is bad news for the Israelis – the only serious military advantage Israel has over Iran is in air power.

A limited strike using only missiles (launched from outside Iran) which penetrated the defences of Khatami Air Base and damaged an S300 SAM radar site https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68866548

That it’s part of the defence for the Natanz nuclear site tells Iran something about its air defences

Protests against Benjamin Netanyahu continue in Israel over his conduct before and throughout this conflict https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/thousands-israelis-join-anti-government-protests-calling-new-elections-2024-04-20/

Unfortunately opposition to Netanyahu is often because he is not considered right-wing enough:

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-07/ty-article-opinion/.premium/far-right-israeli-ministers-are-the-only-ones-truly-serving-their-public/0000018d-7fec-d6dc-ab9f-7ffdb37e0000

An opinion poll shows that 82% of Israelis want the IDF to launch an assault on Rafah, despite very strong opposition from the United States and the UK because of the likely very high civilian casualties due to the hundreds of thousands of displaced Palestinians currently there.

And another opinion poll shows that two thirds of Israeli oppose any humanitarian aid for Gaza.

A limited strike using only missiles (launched from outside Iran) which penetrated the defences of Khatami Air Base and damaged an S300 SAM radar site https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68866548

That it’s part of the defence for the Natanz nuclear site tells Iran something about its air defences

Tells Iran that its nuclear deterrent – should it acquire one – risks being destroyed in its silos and needs to be launched before that happens. What could possibly go wrong?

Tells Iran that its nuclear deterrent – should it acquire one – risks being destroyed in its silos and needs to be launched before that happens. What could possibly go wrong?

I guess that’s one interpretation :)

US-Israel: Netanyahu to reject any sanctions on army units

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68870273

Whilst the Biden administration has under pressure been forced to impose sanctions against individual Israeli West Bank settlers I didn’t expect to see any time soon the United States government impose sanctions on entire IDF units.

After decades of getting away with doing whatever they fancied doing the Israelis are very slowly starting to be held accountable, even by their very closest allies.

After decades of getting away with doing whatever they fancied doing the Israelis are very slowly starting to be held accountable, even by their very closest allies.

Believe it when I see it.

I know this is a thread talking about the politics of it all but as an aside, the footage released to the news from the IDF that looks like a ‘first person shooter’ video game, filmed from body worn cameras of troops, I find deeply offensive

Could be worse, your TV license could be funding propaganda…