😉 I’ll forgive you this time…

Fascinating thread, some great ideas.

Unrelated, but the last few posts got me wondering about pronouns in our posts/user names. Lots of us benefit from doing this in a work environment, why not here ?

Good reminder @stwhannah had implemented this in the last few months but I forgot to update my profile. Have done so. Though don’t think it shows in the forum itself.

Cheers for the tips guys.

The omelette was a relatively new thing to my diet to reduce abit of weight.

Will stick to lots of porridge in the future. Any other suggestions for long acting carbs, maybe peanut butter sarnies, pork pies, etc?

Got some hydration tabs knocking around somewhere, will try them out on next ride.

Whatever you want to eat on a long ride.

I find that if I’m pushing myself either fast or long, then real food gets a bit hard to digest and I can end up with indigestion. So it’s maltodextrin for me (with electrolytes and orange squash in it, don’t buy branded powder), maybe a gel or two or an energy bar. I often get chocolate at petrol stations when they’re there. Otherwise supermarket chewy breakfast bars like Cadbury’s Brunch or those fancy dark chocolate/macadamia nut ones.

both me and my Mum suffer low blood sugar levels

Could be physiological reasons for this when riding rather than pathological. I’m very much a sprinter, according to the sports physiologist this means I’ve got more type II muscle that favours using carbs for energy. When I went for a cycling lactate blood test I found that I had basically no fat burning ability and was running on carbs all the time. This was probably because as a sprinter I was smashing everything treating it like a sprint which perpetuated the situation. Doing proper base training however had a strong effect and suddenly I was able to burn fat and I needed to eat less.

Your cheese and ham omelette does not contain the carbs you need to fuel for the ride so effectivly you are setting off without the fuel on board

Well, at the risk of starting an argument, if you have eaten normally and not ridden for a few days your muscle and liver glycogen stores should be okay. You shouldn’t have burned carbs overnight. Eating slow release carbs in the morning will drip carbs from your gut into your bloodstream throughout the first several hours of a long ride, as long as you aren’t smashing it.

If I know it’s going to be a big ride the next day I try and eat something with pasta or wholegrain rice the night before

Hasn’t this idea been debunked now? If you eat lots of carbs the night before when your muscles and liver are already full of glycogen the insulin produced will simply promote the creation of fat, as I understand it.

EDIT not fully debunked. Increasing the proportion of carbs might help rather than simply more.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/nutrition/do-cyclists-really-need-to-carb-load-before-a-big-ride-284707

One of my favourite and most-effective mid-ride foods is a chunky homemade Spanish omelette, though I don’t often get the timing right to take it on a ride.

Might try the potatoes tip mentioned earlier in the thread.

be very wary of maltodextrin – its a mix of mainly short acting carbs and gives insulin spikes and sugar crashes.  You also never know what the actual mix of carbs is in it.  Its a byproduct of industrial food processing not a foodstuff

Oatcakes and cheese are a staple on long rides for me. I think I could ride indefinitely at a steady pace with enough of them in the bag.
A pot luck selection of brie, cheddar or blue cheese adds to the excitement.

Big gravelly ride planned tomorrow, I reckon I might cook a pizza tonight and put it in the fridge for the morning, never thought of that before!
A few sweeties are nice to give that short boost for those climbs once you are flagging, physically and mentally.

As for LCHF being nonsense, it’s not, but you need to adapt.
I dabbled with keto in the past and could ride steady away for ages on a few bits of chorizo or whatever.

Thats me fuelled for a bike ride.  Beef stew with spuds last night, Eggs benedict this morning, jelly babies for a sugar boost while out.  Nice mix of carbs both short and long acting, protein, fats

Any other suggestions for long acting carbs, maybe peanut butter sarnies

Been taking these on rides for about 30 years now. Nowadays I try and choose 100% peanut butter (no palm oil etc*) and a sliced wholemeal bread whereas when younger it would be economy medium sliced white and SunPat.

*Not that this is particularly better for health, just don’t support unsustainable palm oil. And brown bread is more filling either psychological or not?

I really like the simplicity and portability of a PBS (wrapped tight in tin foil or greaseproof paper and kept in jersey pocket, Camelbak or frame bag) and I love the taste. Sometimes go with crunchy, sometimes smooth. Quite a bit written about it as fuel for exercise on this page:

https://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition-weight-loss/a20787115/peanut-butter-a-great-runners-food/

Why It’s So Good for Runners
Peanut butter provides a feeling of fullness much longer after you’ve eaten than if you’d munched on carbohydrates in the form of, say, pretzels, a candy bar, or even a banana. And that feeling of fullness can help you finish that last set of repeat 400s on the track or power you to the finish line during the last mile of a cross-country 5-K.

“Straight sugar or any simple sugar found in carbohydrates shoots your insulin levels high soon after you eat, but then drops them to the floor halfway through your workout,” says Kearney. “Peanut butter, on the other hand, is full of fat, protein, and fiber, and it gives you a slow, sustained release of energy.” It does contain fat, but it is overwhelmingly the preferred unsaturated fat, which makes peanut butter good for your heart.

Not so sure about the bread part. Would maybe do well to switch for oatcakes, but I like an actual peanut butter sandwich on a long ride.

its a mix of mainly short acting carbs

Like your jelly babies 🙂

be very wary of maltodextrin – its a mix of mainly short acting carbs and gives insulin spikes and sugar crashes. You also never know what the actual mix of carbs is in it.

Well insulin is a good thing to have when you are actually riding hard, it promotes uptake of glucose into cells. The point is that you have small amounts regularly so it works quite nicely. And you can also take much more with you in bottles than you can stored in your tissues. Not everyone can deal with a lot of it mind – although I can. But I never mix it maximum strength. There’s never a sugar crash if you are always sipping small amounts.

Foods that are low GI or slow-release are that because they require more ‘work’ for your digestive system. If you are riding hard then you don’t want this – you need all your energy for powering your muscles. So it’s better in my experience (and that of many coaches and sports scientists etc) to have fast release carbs because they are easy to digest, but sipped or snacked regularly.

Like I say, if you are riding at all hard (or long) you may struggle to eat enough normal food to replenish your stores without feeling full, or stopping for an hour lunch or whatever. This is the role of maltodextrin, and it’s pretty good for it. When I did the Ridgeway Double in a day that’s where I got most of my fuel, along with sugary snacks e.g. chocolate, oatey and protein bars; and a sausage roll or two.

Re the ratio of simple to complex, it’s sometimes written on the packet although not on the stuff I am currently using. Doesn’t seem to matter much though in practice.

Any other suggestions for long acting carbs, maybe peanut butter sarnies

May I suggest tortillas with peanut butter or chocolate spread rolled up? Far more robust than normal bread and easier to eat on the go. You can get wholemeal tortillas too. Wrap them in cling film and they will last several days if needed.

Just popped back in the thread for an update, all this talk of pizza, cheese and crackers, sandwiches etc to fuel a ride…I must be doing cycling wrong or something…this version sound more like a picnic than a ride.

this version sound more like a picnic than a ride.

Well, at least someone has been educated 🤣

Picnics are great!

To be fair, a bike ride and picnic is my perfect day.

I did consider going to do a fasted swim this morning to help with some body training – but thought better of it and could hardly walk home from the pool having eaten a banana and spoonful of peanut butter when I left the house!  Haha!

but thought better of it and could hardly walk home from the pool having eaten a banana and spoonful of peanut butter when I left the house!

The point about fasted riding is that you have to have had nothing at all. Having a small amount makes it worse as the insulin released will inhibit fat burning.

And yes it is really difficult at first but very quickly gets a lot easier, although for me it was never particularly easy. The suggestion is to do the first 45-60 mins* fasted then start consuming carbs – you should find you need far less. This is allegedly to get your ‘fat burning’ system moving. Not sure on the physiology of it but something definitely happens with me. It feels hard for 45 mins then it does get easier and I seem to settle down. After doing this for a while I found myself eating and drinking far less when on normal non-fasted rides too. Interestingly, I haven’t done this kind of riding for ages but I’ve done a lot of VO2 max work on Zwift, and it appears to be having the same effect, I am not drinking as much on real bike rides. This ties in with the idea that metabolising fat takes more oxygen than carbohydrate. Which is why you burn carbohydrate at higher intensity – once you reach the limit of what your muscles can do using fat and the oxygen you’ve supplied, you start to introduce carbs into the energy mix. So the more oxygen you can bring in and use, the less carbs you’ll be using at any given intensity.

* of a bike ride. The advice after 45 mins of swimming is to go home because swimming is boring and 45 minutes is quite enough.

Sausage rolls and mini pork pies got me round the Kielder 101 all those years ago (7 hours ish I think). Needed proper food after a while as jelly babies etc just wouldn’t sit right. I think you need some decent protein as well as carb for that sort of ride.

Did 81km/1458m yesterday round the Brecon Beacons. Vegan potato/chickpea curry the night before, mushroom omelette and toast for breakfast. During the ride I had two cheese sandwiches, a bag of Randoms and a Crunchie; drank one 650ml bottle of water and a one-mug flask of black coffee. Plenty left in the tank when I got home. 54 years old, 90kg, BMI 24. I think it’s mainly about conditioning.

I think you need some decent protein as well as carb for that sort of ride.

Yeah you do – I think it’s as much salt as anything else. But personally I find pastry products quite heavy going. A fancy ‘artisan’ sausage roll with loads of meat is ok but not so much the cheap ones with more pastry. Meaty snacks are good, cold sausages (nom), a lot of people swear by beef jerky or biltong etc for this reason.

I think it’s mainly about conditioning.

Yes and also your physiology which is interlinked with your conditioning because of your riding history probably.

@legolam Kielder 101… that’s a blast from the past! I could be mis-remembering, but I think it was you I was chatting to on one of them at that point in the back half of a MTB marathon where you seem to have been riding forever and think it might never end.

Zach Bitter has lots of interesting things to say about nutrition and exercise. If you are anti low carb, don’t be put off, he doesn’t see carbs as some sort of demon, rather a tool to be used and not just in the traditional LC definition amounts:

https://www.33fuel.com/blogs/default-blog/zach-bitter

Scroll down to have a read, he’s done loads of podcasts too if that is your preference!

On fasting, it is interesting looking at changes in your own physiology over time, I’m the polar opposite of where I was five years ago; fasted rides would have been purgatory and or a BG nightmare, now they are comfortable and chilled with no concerns over needing food.

Re Zach Bitter – it’s worth noting that different things work differently on different people. I do see great improvements doing fasted riding, but I also lose a lot of my top-end. And because I’ve always tended towards sprinting, my riding style incorporates that. Sure, I could stand to lose weight but even my lean mass is around 71-72kg (according to the calipers) so my best practical racing weight is likely to be something like 77-78kg and at that weight I’m always going to be using sprint power to cover rolling terrain. And that kind of riding is what I enjoy, it feels good. So I don’t like losing my top end sprint power, and consequently I don’t think I could or should focus entirely on a pure fat-burning low carb existence. It’s still important for me to work on, but I won’t see the success that Zach Bitter has.

I think you need some decent protein as well as carb for that sort of ride.

You really do not need protein.  Its carbs that fuel you.  yes you can force your body to fuel of other stuff but its nothing like as good.

Carbs are your bodies best fuel

Loads of bollox talked about nutrition by unqualified folk

It’s riding a bike. It’s supposed to be fun. Can we please try not to reduce it to a science?

But then how can people sell you lots of expensive stuff scotroutes if a peanut butter and jam sandwich is all you need?

Loads of bollox talked about nutrition by unqualified folk

Though the person who made that comment is a hospital consultant with experience of long bike rides 🙂

Can we please try not to reduce it to a science?

You mean elevate it to a science? 😉

Anyway – why do we have to live your way? Can’t we live our own ways? So what if I like science on my bike rides, why is that a problem for you?

You really do not need protein.

Tell you what, go on an 8 hour ride then I’ll give you a plate of sausages see if you change your mind 🙂

I’m not playing the science card on this one – my experience tells me that after a long hard time in the saddle salty savoury stuff (which for me is meat) is incredibly satisfying and can make you feel much much better very quickly. I suspect it’s salt related, but I don’t know. When I did my 24 hour solo MM the sausages my wife barbecued were absolute life savers.

How many 24 hour solos have you done TJ? 😉

my experience tells me that after a long hard time in the saddle salty savoury stuff (which for me is meat) is incredibly satisfying and can make you feel much much better very quickly. I suspect it’s salt related, but I don’t know.

I’m not a scientist so have no clue, but I also share your view/experience. However this is post ride, and I’ve always been under the impression that salt is good for restoring lost salts and that the protein from meat is good for helping battered muscles recover/rebuild.

Again, my uneducated and simplistic view on the world:
– Salt (and electrolytes in general) stop your blood from thickening too much, which means it can still deliver energy to your muscles.
– Carbohydrates provide energy for your muscles
– Protein helps build/rebuild muscle

This reminds me of my first 24hr race years ago. I parked up next to guy who’s mum was walking round with a clipboard of his nutrition schedule for the race.

I sheepishly pulled out a carrier bag of jaffa cakes, sausage rolls and other random stuff from Tesco. It was at this point I realised I was not and never would be an endurance athlete.

Yes he did way more laps than me, but I like to think I had more fun 😀

How many 24 hour solos have you done TJ? 😉

Two one of which was the strathpuffer so harder than anything you have done 🙂

I would turn your sausages away post ride and have a pint and a packet of crisps instead.  ( then go for a nice proper mel with plenty of carbs 🙂

I have regularly ridden 8 hours in a day fuelled on proper food and beer.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2iyFYAS]IMG_3594[/url] by TandemJeremy, on Flickr

I think yo are right tho – its the salt you are probably craving not the protein.

Sausage rolls and mini pork pies got me round the Kielder 101 all those years ago (7 hours ish I think).

I think I ate similar, but it took me twice as long.

That is a perfect illustration of how personal this is. Crisps and a beer after a long ride has put me in A&E with Arrythmia and my BP in my boots. Definitely not my post ride recovery.

There are clearly some things that are better to do than others, but the variety of answers shows there are also the individual aspects of what food you are conditioned to eat, and what you actually enjoy eating and therefore eat enough of.

ashat – it really wasn’t a serious suggestion but that post long day on a bike pint goes down well

To take it back to the basics – I think you need significantly more carbs the day before and at breakfast and a mix of long and short acting ones.  don’t try to fuel for the day on sugars ( maltodextrin is a mix of saccardides) – its very unhealthy and leads to sugar crashes and insulin spikes.  Oats have a regulating effect on blood sugar

You also need less fluids and more salt but thats more of a guess.  Low BP / arrhythmia because all the fluid you have taken on has washed electrolytes out of your system.  Low potassium would be my guess as well as low sodium.  Low potassium leads to arrhythmia IIRC

I also suspect you need professional advice – and get that advise from someone who is a dietician with an interest in sport.  Dieticians are regulated professionals.  Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist.  Sure there will be knowledgeable people working under the nutritionist label but there is an awful lot of codswallop said by “nutritionists”

Thanks. The arythmia issue was 2.5 years ago and now all under control. Had masses of tests, and know to manage my salts like you say (always take an electrolyte drink for any ride more than 2 hours, or in warm weather). Definitely never have a drink the evening after a ride, either. But I am seemingly super sensitive to alcohol these days!! Fun!

I meant to say – I have always found it very easy to drop both my blood sugar and blood pressure if I do not eat and drink enough so I have some idea of what is happening to you.  I used to regularly “bonk” unless I had had my complex carbs – glucose gets you back out of it quickly but complex carbs stop it happening

Some interesting posts 👌🏻

My bro science takes from various podcasts and articles are that:

Yes you want to be fully ‘topped off’ with. Glycogen before you start. Carb loaded as such. The longer the ride, the longer you can do this up to about three days I believe. That will tie in with reducing your training volume before an important event too. You can also salt load if you are a heavy sweater.

If you are going to eat right before you start, either do so at least 45minutes before or right on the line. Anywhere in between will spike your insulin, inhibit fat burning and leave you flat.

Once you begin exercising, your Glute 4 transporters are activated in the same way as insulin does but without the insulin. Hence the suggestions about starting a ride fasted.
Once you have initiated these transporters, you can smash the sugar as fast as you’re using it with no insulin spike or blood sugar crash.

If you are used to eating carbs, your gut and liver develop more enzymes to deal with it. And more transporters. The difference can be as much as 30% between someone who is habituated and someone who isn’t (ie 30% of the sugar you eat fails to get converted to glycogen). That’s why leaving it until the event to smash carbs can result in an upset tummy.

It’s also why LCHF isn’t best for performance. Even with carb cycling at different training phases, LCHF riders won’t be as efficient at processing carbs come race day. And if the race involves more glycolytic work than we have storage for (say 2000kcal) then the ability to take on and process carbs will decide the outcome.

If you fuel as you ride, there is no need to consume anything other than refined carbs. Only if you are relying on stops will the need to have longer chain carbohydrates be relevant. And even then you are just wasting blood in your gut to achieve the same effect as micro-dosing with refined carbs as you ride.
Fat and protein will just slow the absorption down, requiring more digestion. Even if you are as lean as they come- you have enough fat already.

Carb adapted riders can replicate being fat adapted- just cap your efforts at around 60-70% of FTP and you can ride all day.
I tried this last year and got to 7hrs after a couple of weeks. 7hrs on water alone just by never leaving Z2. And I’m a total carb monster.

For recovery, once you have stopped exercising, then it is a good idea to spike you insulin (because it is anabolic) with some processed carbs (sprite for example) and then eat your protein shake or whatever post ride food you enjoy.

Eating nothing but sweets and sugar water sounds fun but I totally get why people choose to eat regular food instead. I did 6 hrs on Sunday and was struggling to force jelly babies down by the end.
But I know being well practiced will help me on Dirty Reiver.
The ride was 3800kcals and I ate probably 2000 of those back as I rode with millionaires bites, jelly babies and Haribo plus 120g of table sugar in my bottles.

That felt excessive but legs were fine at work the next day and good enough to zwift race 2 days later. What you can wring yourself out to do for a one off means nothing if you’re trashed for a week afterwards.

Peanut butter and Jam or marmite sandwhich made with white bread (you’re body won’t appreciate the fibre of wholemeal / granary).
Cold Pizza.
Haribo Tangfastics.
Peanut M & M’s.

Nutrition is not an exact science IMO, it’s different for everyone, especially at a performance level (just look at Chris Froome for example whose performances AFAIK improved massively once he started changing his diet to more low carb, fat adaption during training for events). It depends on what your goals are. Mine is to get fit and enjoy longer rides without getting weak and exhausted on trickier descents.

At a personal level, I used to rely on carbs a lot for my energy during rides e.g. porridge, bananas, honey first thing, then meusli bars and energy gels during the ride but if I ever went on a longer ride without a “top up”, I would “bonk” pretty badly.

As a result of other things not related to biking performance, I switched to LCHF around 8 months ago (inflammation mostly). It takes time to become adapted, but once I was, I found eggs and bacon, some full fat yoghurt prior to a ride would leave me full, and not really hungry even four hours into a ride. I take mixed nuts and dark chocolate for a top up now, but often don’t feel I need it.

If I know I’m doing a particularly heavy or long ride or activity, I may add a few tablespoons of oats to a bowl of “Keto” porridge, but often don’t bother. An example recently is a five hour, 12 mile and 3000ft hike up and down Cadair Idris, all I had was eggs, full fat yoghurt with a handful of raspberries in the morning, then mixed nuts, dark chocolate and some chicken breast half way up. Plenty of energy, but achy legs the next day!

It’s a case of finding what works for you. On LCHF, I don’t “bonk” or get carb cravings any more and feel fitter than I have for 20 years. I’m also leaner and stronger than I was in my twenties (I’m 45 now), so won’t be going back to my carb loading days.

My bro science takes from various podcasts and articles are that:

Medical and nutritional science is preferable by far, IMO. Especially where health is concerned?

Some dangerous/risky, popular, recent ‘bro science’ debunked earlier