[Closed] Forgive me...we haven't done Middle Lane Hoggers for a while have we?

"dippers" is what I call them (short for something else in a car beginning with "dip"). pass, instantly pull in as if to prove they are overtaking,

Had one of those today. Low-end Alfa, usually a sign of a try-hard. Tailgated me at 70 as I overtook, let him past, watched as he weaved in an out to prove some kind of point.

I tend to use the shiny, mysterious thing attached to my windscreen to work out if I need to pull over into smallish gaps. If I'm not actually holding anyone up then why pull over?

surprise, majority of people not good at high skill activity for which limited training received

stay off the freeway, neo

So glad I don't have the M1\M62 commute to Leeds anymore.

On a morning, Junction 44 used to be my pet hate, lane one stops for the exit and lane two starts pulling into lane three rather than drive next to stationary traffic, there would be this bizarre situation where the outside lane is crawling and the middle lane is empty.

It got worse as you'd could be driving happily in the empty lane two until Mr Audi pulls out without looking and overtakes a few cars, then stops and waits for someone to let him back in lane one.

Coming home it was the slip road queues and Mr Audi again using the hard shoulder to undertake traffic. Often enough that plod occasionally parked at the top of the slip road and flagged all the Mr Audis over.

3. The reason might just be that it's a bugger to get out again when they meet a genuinely slow vehicle.

As I said earlier,

If the first time you think about looking for a gap to pull back out is when you've run out of road, that's just a lack of forward planning.

@Cougar, Aracer conveniently provides the "maths" on why I DONT pull in between traffic moving significantly slower than me just so pedants who must be doing significantly more than the speed limit can avoid changing lanes themselves.

I can only think people who really get wound up about this speed to much time in the car. But then we only have one motorway in Wales and it only has two lanes.

"Genuinely slow vehicles" don't spontaneously appear six feet from your front bumper. If you're aware of your surroundings and thinking ahead it's really, really not difficult to pull out again in the vast majority of cases.

"Genuinely slow vehicles" don't spontaneously appear six feet from your front bumper. If you're aware of your surroundings and thinking ahead it's really, really not difficult to pull out again in the vast majority of cases.

But likewise if you are thinking ahead then you'll often see that pulling back into lane 1 would mean you'd have to pull back out again (or slow down) within [i]X[/i] seconds so it's not worth doing.

Arguments arise over people's preferred value of [i]X[/i].

I don't see the problem. The middle lane is great, it gives you options both sides.

I went to the FOD today and saw pretty much all of the above, I was only on the M4 for 30 minutes 😆

Best was when I was overtaking two lorries heading west past the junction with Malpas road (2 lanes tuning into 3). Guy in a BMW blasts up the slip road and tries to dart in between the two lorries in lane 2 into lane 3 and tuck in behind me, as in 3 inches from my bumper. He had one hell of a shock when he spotted I had a towbar bike rack on the back!! The lorry he'd just cut up gave him the full horn/light treatment 😈

But then we only have one motorway in Wales and it only has two lanes.

A large majority of the M4 is 3 lanes to the east. Although most drivers don't seem to realise 🙄

[quote=wilburt ]@Cougar, Aracer conveniently provides the "maths" on why I DONT pull in between traffic moving significantly slower than me just so pedants who must be doing significantly more than the speed limit can avoid changing lanes themselves.

You appear not to have read what I wrote. That or you won't pull back in when you have to pull out again over 30s later, or in other words for more than half a mile in the left hand lane? As I wrote, you're part of the problem. You also appear to think you are the police.

I'll certainly pull in for less than that time/distance, and I'm not a dipper, nor do I have any problem pulling back out.

When someone comes "flying up behind me" they are clearly on average, driving faster than me, so i just make sure i'm not in front of them when they get to where i am. If that means turning the handwheel a little bit to move my car 2m to the left, then so be it. Hardly a chore. I bet Wilburt also complains he gets "Tailgated" the whole time too..........

My watch words are "If my driving causes anyone else to have to brake or change there direction suddenly, i've failed"

A lot of people are stating that middle lane hoggers are selfish. Well maybe, but a hell of a lot less selfish than those of you who are speeding. If everyone kept to the speed limit, there would be a lot less accidents and traffic congestion. Also, the epitome of selfishness is driving fast and putting other peoples lives at danger.

Are we allowed to make progress?

Are we allowed to make progress?

A lot of people are stating that middle lane hoggers are selfish. Well maybe, but a hell of a lot less selfish than those of you who are speeding. If everyone kept to the speed limit, there would be a lot less accidents and traffic congestion. Also, the epitome of selfishness is driving fast and putting other peoples lives at danger.

a hell of a lot less selfish than those of you who are speeding. If everyone kept to the speed limit, there would be a lot less accidents and traffic congestion

Really? I'd much rather someone was speeding, but driving safely than not speeding and driving like a cock........

Speed kills. Except it doesn't. Inappropriate speed kills, and a small metal sign with a completely arbitrary number on it is not a suitable way to decide what speed you should be doing.

Some people seem to think that you should pull back in whenever there's any kind of gap on the inside. This however is not a smart way to drive and help traffic flow.

Speed kills. Except it doesn't. Inappropriate speed kills, and a small metal sign with a completely arbitrary number on it is not a suitable way to decide what speed you should be doing.

Without wishing to get into yet another semantic debate about the actual meaning of that slogan, and the idiocy of maxtorque's response to it: Speeding does cause congestion. A greater spread of speeds means much more lane changing and speed changing, which causes congestion where the traffic would fit perfectly on the road if it were all doing the same speed.

That's why managed motorways work (when they are observed).

Really wasn't supposed to be a thread about speeding, either the defence or condemnation of. But here are LHS and maxtorque to turn it into one. 🙂

Inappropriate being an arsehole on the road is what kills. Some arseholes kill at speed and some kill while doddering. Let's just leave it there.

[quote=molgrips ]Without wishing to get into yet another semantic debate about the actual meaning of that slogan, and the idiocy of maxtorque's response to it: Speeding does cause congestion. A greater spread of speeds means much more lane changing and speed changing, which causes congestion where the traffic would fit perfectly on the road if it were all doing the same speed.

Except when traffic volume is low enough that it doesn't. Which is the majority of the time when I drive (I accept that other people drive a lot more when it's congested than I do, but plenty of the time it isn't). Provided of course that people aren't middle lane hogging - that causes congestion well before it would otherwise happen, whatever speeds people are driving at.

Meanwhile on normal motorways vehicles are driving at different speeds even if everybody sticks to the speed limit.

Speed kills. Except it doesn't.

In the same way that guns don't kill, but they certainly make it a lot easier.

I did read what your post aracar, however it being bollox I ignored it but stole your maths, thanks.

Max Torques disagreement is as with any driving matter the ultimate conformation I'm correct, it's like having a different opinion to Katie Hopkins, Jeremy Clarkson or Eric Pickles.

In reality not even people like you who have this self image as superhero driving experts pull into every gap and trying to describe which gaps we would and wouldn't pull into is pointless. It also probably changes with a myriad of factors taken into account as we drive along doing our own little risk v consequences assessments and sometimes coming to slightly different conclusions.

So don't worry about it, your probably going to get cancer tomorrow or loose your job or win the lottery or go on a nice holiday or whatever...IT JUST DOESNT MATTER!

@aracer, agree with what you've said.

So...just wondering...if a motorway is quiet (I don't know what density of traffic we have to reach to induce congestion...) then middle laning isn't really a problem? Until the road gets busy enough that enough middle laning causes congestion sooner than correct lane discipline. So drivers that are happy to middle lane during quiet periods just get into the habit of it and hope everybody else does the right thing when it gets busier. So, [i]not[/i] middle laning should be encouraged as much as possible.

Feels to me that (as mentioned in OP) the ship has sailed. Or is there actually a way to get those who won't move left to change their ways? I often wonder why the gantries aren't used to remind folk to keep left when possible.

IT JUST DOESNT MATTER!

CAPS?

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

Havent read all this thread or even much beyond the first post, well ok I didnt read that either as it was bloody long.. but

I reckon its middle lane hogging is on the increase because of the number of these idiot speed matchers. You sit in the inside lane and some ****wit will come along and then sit right alongside you as you approach a lorry and wont let you out unless you brake. People seem incapable of driving at a steady speed.

"won't let you out"?? what?

I can't think of a single time in all my years of driving where someone has "blocked" me in? If you are observing and managing your driving correctly, then you'll not have an issues with other motorists.

The problem is that our roads have reached a capacity where there is ALWAYS another vehicle in sight in the inside lane. So, lazy, stupid, and frankly selfish drivers, mostly who are not paying any attention to their driving or environment, find it "easier" to just sit in the middle lane. 99% of the time, they haven't even spotted the other car closing on them (even if it's a ambulance / police car with sirens and blues!). Why should they move over? They are driving at a speed they think is suitable, and they are going to overtake that truck 300 yards in the distance eventually, so everyone can just follow them.

Like i say, if you are a good driver, you make sure you don't get in anyone else's way, ever. (regardless of if they are "speeding" or whatever). Anyone who says "yeah but" and rolls out some stupid lame excuse as to why they should cause another driver an inconvenience is, well, stupid and lame.

it's simple. PAY ATTENTION OF WHATS GOING ON AROUND YOU.

If you're not in the lh lane, think, should i be? No one is asking you to yo-yo in and out of it every 3 sec. Even if you can't move left, and someone has caught you from behind, perhaps considering speeding up slightly (yes, even if you then break the speed limit, as the risk from doing 75mph in a 70 limit is WAY lower than the risk posed by two cars, doing 70, but 3 feet apart with both drivers getting road rage....)

You might say "why should i go out of my way to help another driver on their way?" Well, why should you? If you saw a young child or old lady waiting to cross the road, would you help them to do so?

Selfish drivers begat selfish drivers, in an endless loop.

(and the worst ones are the "Holier than thou" anti-speeders (who generally are extremely poor drivers, haven't ever been trained properly to drive, and like to wind up other drivers to make a point....)

deadlydarcy

So drivers that are happy to middle lane during quiet periods just get into the habit of it

^^ This is why Advanced Driving "systems" exist. The things they encourage to do are not necessarily immediately obvious in the first instance, but by following these systems subconsciously builds a proper driving style. Making the driver think about how they are driving is actually the most important part of such a system.

We could have a similar thread on the "death of indicating", another critical skill that allows traffic to flow, smoothly, rapidly and safely, and yet, in the current "war on speeding" has been almost entirely forgotten.

wilburt

Max Torques disagreement is as with any driving matter the ultimate conformation I'm correct

Cripes you must find driving really difficult, what with your massive head making even getting the car tricky....... 😉

(^^^ joke btw)

What are you driving qualifications then Wilburt?

if you are a good driver, you make sure you don't get in anyone else's way, ever.

Must be a fun challenge at junctions and roundabouts. Do you drive on the pavement to avoid getting in the way?

perhaps considering speeding up slightly (yes, even if you then break the speed limit

If the car behind me objects to me overtaking at the speed limit (or within a margin that I deem suitable) then they are welcome to use the outside lane and overtake me. Expecting me to break the law because you want to is ridiculous and not my idea of a "good driver".

Do you do that in any other walks of life?

"Excuse me love, would you mind just stealing those bananas and moving on please? I'm trying to shoplift here." 😀

What are you driving qualifications then Wilburt?

Not having qualifications doesn't mean you're a worse driver, it means that you haven't sat any tests 🙂

I agree with your entire post maxtorque, but I don't therefore conclude that I can drive as fast as I fancy.

A regular predictable speed for everyone makes traffic flow far better, and everyone safer. That includes people going too slow as well as too fast.

With regards getting out of people's way - then I will if they are being reasonable and it isn't inconveniencing me I will get out of their way, even if they are speeding. However if I am passing two cars close together and they fly up behind me at 100mph, tailgate, and flash their lights to try and force me out of their way then they can bite me, frankly. Wait for the road to clear before speeding, like everyone else.

[quote=wilburt ]I did read what your post aracar, however it being bollox I ignored it but stole your maths, thanks.

Well most of my post was maths, the other bit was suggesting that it's not unreasonable to pull in when you don't need to pull out again for over 30s or over 1/2 a mile. Which quite clearly isn't bollox. But then I'd not expect your judgement of the quality of posts to be any better than your driving.

So i assume Graham, you've never broken any speed limit in your life?

Or perhaps you only do so when you see fit?

A good driver will adapt to their surroundings. This is generally what we don't find with a lot of people on motorways.

If you need to go over 70 to slot into lane 3 to get past someone doing 60 in lane 2, it's safer than pulling out, refusing to speed up and slowing everyone behind you.

If there is no-one behind you, you don't have to persistently weave between lanes 1 & 2.

When you are in lane 1, judge what's coming and time your overtake.

If you are in lane 2 and you see someone in lane 1 approaching an overtake, move into lane 3 if safe.

It's not bloody rocket science

What are you driving qualifications then Wilburt?

Or perhaps you only do so when you see fit?

Indeed. When I see fit.

So if I'm overtaking at 70 then clearly I don't see fit at that point for whatever reason.

The addition of some wazzock driving two inches from my bumper and flashing his lights because he can't be arsed to change lanes does absolutely nothing to change my mind, though it may cause me to ease off the gas a bit.

[quote=molgrips ]With regards getting out of people's way - then I will if they are being reasonable and it isn't inconveniencing me I will get out of their way, even if they are speeding. However if I am passing two cars close together and they fly up behind me at 100mph, tailgate, and flash their lights to try and force me out of their way then they can bite me, frankly. Wait for the road to clear before speeding, like everyone else.

+1 - I'll even sometimes speed up a bit as maxt suggests - nothing to do with somebody else forcing or even expecting me to do it, if I'm sitting on cruise at 70 or 75 as I often do and come up on somebody in the middle lane doing a few mph less, then if there's faster traffic coming up behind I'll accelerate a bit as I overtake in order to spend less time in the right hand lane to be courteous to other drivers and avoid creating needless congestion. Of course I'm less inclined to bother doing that if somebody sits on my bumper.

I don't believe it is good driving to dogmatically stick to a given speed when increasing it slightly for a short while will improve the experience of other drivers (even if they are breaking the law).

TL:DR

The English are shite drivers and lane hoggers. (massive sweeping generalisation)

molgrips

but I don't therefore conclude that I can drive as fast as I fancy

Neither do i, if that speed would result in causing another driver an inconvenience.

It's obvious that excessive speed is just as inappropriate as insufficient speed.

However, we have a "driving system" to enable drivers at ALL speeds to go about their tasks in the safest, most efficient fashion.

If i'm doing 100mph on the mway, and i see a car in the inside lane, doing 70, about to pull out to overtake a truck, then i will moderate my speed to avoid that car. In return, it would be courteous of that other car to accept there is another car near them (looking in your mirrors helps here.......) and that they ARE driving faster than them (for whatever reason) and that they therefore should complete that maneuver in a safe yet timely manner to cause minimal inconvenience.

it's a two way street.

The "System" says, [b]unless overtaking keep left[/b]. it's very simple. if the driver travelling slower thinks "sod you, i'm just going to dawdle past this truck, i don't care if i cause you to brake, you are speeding anyway" then all they are doing is putting EVERYONE at a higher than necessary risk, causing friction between drivers (which can escalate) and make the faster driver more likely to either tailgate them, undertake them.

It's amazing how much smoother and safer you can make YOUR journey when you drive to not inconvenience others, even if that means changing the way or speed at which you drive......

captainsasquatch

What are yours, maxtorque?

If you want the full list it'll take a while 😉

1) I hold a full, clean, UK driving licence, and have done so for 25 years, with ZERO accidents
2) I hold a MSA National A RACE competition licence
3) I hold a MSA National A Rally competition licence
4) I hold a FIA International competition licence
5) I am an IAM Advanced driver
6) I hold a Prodrive "Red" licence (highest level for test track activities and driver tuition).
7) I hold Full Facility access licences for Millbrook, MIRA, Nardo test facilities, including unlimited dynamic assessment
8) I hold the highest level licences/driver qualifications from the following OEMS: JLR, Aston Martin, Mclaren Automotive, Bentley Motors, and Ford.
9) I hold a Nurbugring Industry pool licence.

The only thing i haven't got, and would quite like, is an HGV qualification.

And probably a few others i've forgotten 😉

The "System" says, [b]unless overtaking keep left[/b]. it's very simple. if the driver travelling slower thinks "sod you, i'm just going to dawdle past this truck...

If they are passing a truck then they ARE overtaking. How is that not the "System"?

To be honest if I looked in the mirror and saw you bearing down at 100mph then I wouldn't start an overtake till you were past me.

I wouldn't want to get in your way, and thus your behaviour has inconvenienced me - you got in my way.

GrahamS

I wouldn't want to get in your way, and thus your behavior has inconvenienced me - you got in my way

No, no i haven't. You have (graciously) inconvenienced yourself, which is fine (as it was your choice to do so)

The trick to real world driving is to neither inconvenience others OR yourself. This takes excellent observation, positive defensive driving techniques, and above all, the willingness to want to better your driving.

The trick to real world driving is to neither inconvenience others OR yourself.

So what about the situation where you have to brake and pull in to let some aggressive driver past?

If you want the full list it'll take a while 😉

1) I hold a full, clean, UK driving licence, and have done so for 25 years, with ZERO accidents
2) I hold a MSA National A RACE competition licence
3) I hold a MSA National A Rally competition licence
4) I hold a FIA International competition licence
5) I am an IAM Advanced driver
6) I hold a Prodrive "Red" licence (highest level for test track activities and driver tuition).
7) I hold Full Facility access licences for Millbrook, MIRA, Nardo test facilities, including unlimited dynamic assessment
8 )I hold the highest level licences/driver qualifications from the following OEMS: JLR, Aston Martin, Mclaren Automotive, Bentley Motors, and Ford.
9) I hold a Nurbugring Industry pool licence.

The only thing i haven't got, and would quite like, is an HGV qualification.

And probably a few others i've forgotten 😉

eh? you asked what my qualifications are, so i listed them for you.

Even if you can't move left, and someone has caught you from behind, perhaps considering speeding up slightly (yes, even if you then break the speed limit, as the risk from doing 75mph in a 70 limit is WAY lower than the risk posed by two cars, doing 70, but 3 feet apart with both drivers getting road rage....)

The trick to real world driving is to neither inconvenience others OR yourself

I have no idea how that could possibly happen in that scenario, or many other every day scenarios where something has to give and someone has to yield or take action.

So I'll stick to my pretend world driving.

(Before you ask: UK driving license (for less than a decade) + 25 metre swimming badge (front crawl) and a Blue Peter badge)

You're forgetting this is STW maxt, it's compulsory to be derisory when somebody provides exactly the information you asked for.

FWIW I've written my car off by running into the back of somebody else and rolled my car onto a police car coming the other way on a singletrack road, so I'm not about to start bragging about how wonderful a driver I am.

Even though maxtorque could possibly be called Matt in another life, I tend to agree with him more than most folk on this thread.

I've no advanced driving qualifications, but drive 40k a year, have held a driving licence for 27 years and in that time have had a grand total of 3 points, one major (not at fault accident) and 1 minor (slow bump) at fault accident

They're hardly qualifications, if you simply buy them or they are competition related, or give you a position to pontificate on a road driving thread, do they? 😉

They are right though captain. It's a bit rich to ask someone to wave their willy for you, and then laugh at it when they do.

andytherocketeer I'd rather you smack me up the back end at 69 than 75.

Well, call me old fashion, but i'd rather not get rammed off the road at any speed........

If you saw a crazy man running down the highstreet with a handgun, would you go and trip him up?

You know nothing about the other driver, other than they are driving (on average) faster than you. They could be a father rushing to hospital after his daughter has fallen off a horse, they could be a carpet salesman rushing to a late meeting, or a drink/drug fuelled maniac, or they could just be an everyday "idiot" who wants to do 100mph everywhere. And yet, in each and every case, the BEST thing you can do, the thing that results in the lowest risk to yourself (any everyone around you) is to just get out of their way. Let them tailgate the car ahead of you, let them road rage that ignorant sod (who thinks it's fun to hold em up).

Occupying the moral high ground from your hospital bed, or worse, the morgue, is seriously overrated imo......

Two accidents here! Both entering roundabouts when the eejits in front of me didn't spot the gap I had. I was only trying to make bloody progress. 😀