[Closed] Fascinating (tragic) cave diving article on Beeb site

Stuff of nightmares for me. Read also the 'Dead Man's Handshake' article about Kingsdale Master Cave diving for a similar, albeit less tragic, sweaty palms read...

I just read that - sounds like my worst nightmares made real! Such a very fine line between life and death and if/when it goes wrong there is literally no way you can be saved 😯

I've been down two caves with a mate who does this kind of remote and extreme cave diving. After reading that story I'm beginning to think he must be mad.

Yeah had a read of that myself this morning. I get the lure of exploring new areas but for me the fear of struggling through pitch black cave systems and knowing if something goes wrong it's likely to be fatal far outweighs that so it's not something I'd ever want to do. I did a bit of caving as a teenager (wore a wet suit but not in submerged caves) and that was scary enough when you feel yourself getting wedged in and start panicking as you can't expand your chest to breath properly, which then makes you hyperventilate...)

A bit longer but this is an amazing all be it tragic read too.

[url= http://www.outsideonline.com/1922711/raising-dead ]Raising the dead Outside on line [/url]

I read that too. Can't think of a more terrifying pass time!

Think my entire English class was put off any sort of caving after reading an account of someone who got trapped head first down a passage and all attempts at rescue failed and eventually he ran out of air.

I got stuck at 95m in a cave for a while. (open circuit, four tanks)

It concentrates the mind a bit. When I managed to wriggle out backwards I then ended up in zero vis due to my strugging.

Eventually got clear only to figure out I was very likely short of deco gas by about 12 mins.

I've read about the tragedy at the Bushman's Hole and to be frank anything underwater scares the bejesus out of me....add narrow, restricting, dark and thanks but no thanks.

Fascinating though underwater caves.

Such a very fine line between life and death and if/when it goes wrong there is literally no way you can be saved

Agreed, but it's only a continuation of the same scale that saw gliding effortlessly* down Red25 at Swinley past the shrine marking the point someone died last year. Only need to come up short on a jump or have a tyre wash out pitching you into a tree and it's lights out.

*breathing out of my arse

I feel sick just reading that, with a creeping feeling of panic. Very brave those guys!

yes amazing/scary read

Trimix - Member
Eventually got clear only to figure out I was very likely short of deco gas by about 12 mins.

and...?

Here's a cracking video on the challenges and complexity of cave diving with Rick Stanton.

You can (and should) plan for the risks so that they can be dealt with or eliminated. This is the element that I enjoyed the most when doing it.

I would spend ages dreaming up possible chances of it going wrong, then planning on how to eliminate them, then practicing the drills, then doing some safe but rehearsed problems.

There is something very satisfying about being in total control of your life and not relying on someone else or some element of chance.

Never done diving or cave diving but I once had to duck under a sump that was in an S shaped passage, emerging into a bigger cave system. The only way to do it was to lie on your side and twist round the turns like a shrimp while breathing the air in a small pocket above your head, then take a deep breath and go for it with blind faith. Coming back, we couldn't find the entrance to the sump because it was under water and we began to get a little nervous; it was a good exercise in keeping one's wits. We found it and got out but even now I have nightmares about a big black mass of rock with a tiny twisting passage filling with water and me trapped in it like a worm in a tunnel.

Raising the dead Outside on line

Cracking read and very sad tale...

@theflatboy - I ended up with a very aggressive deco gradient and sucked O2 on the boat for about an hour.

Mild skin rash and joint pain which eventually went. I have had worse 🙁

My deco planning is set to about 20% - depending on the dive, so theoretically I can push it to say 10 % or even less.

But I know from experience that 20% feels fine, anything more aggressive results in side effects.

Sounds lucky - I have done quite a bit of boring AOW depth diving but can't imagine the sort of stuff you're talking about and in those articles, I'd be terrified!

Actually its only terrifying if you haven't planned it. If you spend a week planning / practicing it then its quite satisfying and not at all scary.

If it does go wrong - which in my case it has a couple of times - you are so focused on a solution there is no time to be scared.

Glittering underground caves and subterranean dives sounds fun. Then you read the article and its all confined spaces, getting tangled up, getting life changing injuries from coming up too quick and a good chance of death, then I realise I'm better off with
[img] [/img]

Eventually got clear only to figure out I was very likely short of deco gas by about 12 mins.

globalti - Member

Never done diving or cave diving but I once had to duck under a sump that was in an S shaped passage, emerging into a bigger cave system. The only way to do it was to lie on your side and twist round the turns like a shrimp while breathing the air in a small pocket above your head, then take a deep breath and go for it with blind faith. Coming back, we couldn't find the entrance to the sump because it was under water and we began to get a little nervous; it was a good exercise in keeping one's wits. We found it and got out but even now I have nightmares about a big black mass of rock with a tiny twisting passage filling with water and me trapped in it like a worm in a tunnel.

Never got into technical diving, and none of the links above have made want to change that.

I had palpitations reading it !

Much respect to those who do (hat tip to trimix, but bloody hell I'd have gone to the pot after those symptoms! 🙂 I'm guessing that there wasn't one near) But I decided that mixed gases were beyond my budget and caves were therefore out as well

A bit of wreck is ok though

Scares the shit out of me too - I've been dryish caving but only places where I've been assured that flooding "pretty much" couldn't happen

Got stuck (or rather, "unable to get through") in the cheese press at Ingleton once and that was bad enough, even knowing there were several people well capable of pulling me out backwards and that there was an easy walk around the thing after that

Dorothea Quarry in North Wales has many tragic divers deaths and has fences and big bloody signs telling people to keep away as theres a chance of death yet still people dive there.
Could someone please explain to a layman why it's so dangerous there?

I can't even bring myself to read those articles, just reading globalti's bit about the sump gives me the horrors, my worst nightmare, getting stuck in a narrow passage underground.

You don't need to be underwater to lose consciousness in a tunnel;

[img] [/img]

very Wemmbley Hogg

Christ, remind me why I ride with you Trimix !?
😉

Diving - Yes.
Caves - Sod off.
Cave diving - Erm, nope.

Interesting read, be good to see the film. Although I suspect it'll give me nightmares.

iolo - it's statistically no worse than any other inland dive site if you consider number of dives compared to incidents - but the local papers like to write stories; Because there is a public RoW that runs alongside the site, the slope and the size of the site it's very hard to turn it into a commercial dive location. because of the state of the road in and out the ambulances can't get in or out so the divers know to call the coastguard to chopper them to the pot at murrayfield on the wirral, which is a big notice of an incident which makes for an easy headline, even if it's precautionary

yes it's deep - 90m for a fair section of it and even more if you really hunt for the deepest point (I think 101m), so if you don't know what you are doing you could end up in a very bad way (or dead I'm sorry to say) but you could do this at capernwray or chepstow or stoney cove
it's also really impressive - some of the best visibility and the slate faces are mega, and the petrified forest on the back section 🙂

capernwray is 20m deep, chepstow about 50m stoney cove about 35m - there are lots of things that could cause a bend

Read the book of Raising The Dead, genuinely haunting. Do I imagine it or did some poor soul lose his companions and his way, find an air pocket and sit there in the pitch darkness until he died of starvation? Pretty high up on my list of bad ways to go.

What a great (and sad) article and it completely reinforces my only major phobia... cold, dark water. Combine a footbridge, a fast flowing river, night and winter makes me take a deep breath and mutter 'get a grip'.

I want to watch the documentary, but not with the curtains closed and probably with a lot of 'pause-breath' moments.

Do I imagine it or did some poor soul lose his companions and his way, find an air pocket and sit there in the pitch darkness until he died of starvation? Pretty high up on my list of bad ways to go.

That scares me as well. Shadow Divers is a book worth reading.

Not for me at all.i became stuck in a drainage pipe when i was a young boy and still have night terrors. Even putting on a motorcycle helmet can and has brought on panic attacks.
I'm unable to watch people caving on TV.
Oddly my wife took me into cheddar limestone caves as she thought it would be fun,not the best day out.

Read the original article last night on the BBC website, found it a really hard read, was an interesting, but horrible read.
Found it interesting what the British guy was saying about how safe it is as you should prepare for every eventuality.

Checking bike and kit before a solo mid-winter night ride will never really feel that important anymore.

Read the link and watched that Rick Stanton video. Really interesting but tragic story on the BBC. I had no idea how much gear they needed to take with them and the lengths/depths of the dives were much greater than I had imagined. Fascinating but truly scary stuff.

So starved to death in the dark

I remember that one, he had access to water and when they found his body he had several weeks beard growth so it was a long slow death......... 😕

I used to work in a dive shop with two cave divers. They were some of the most pleasant people I ever knew - relaxed, smart, focused, very good at pre-planning. Owners, and proud users, of adult nappies.

It used to be a Monday morning ritual to buy them a coffee and cake if they'd done a hard dive and nothing went wrong - laugh it off - make light of it. Frankly, Mondays we're always me wondering if the lads would be in work or dead. One to many, for my liking, serious incidents - a trip to the emergency deco chamber to check up on one of them.

I've dived a bit. Climbed a lot. Caved a bit. The concept of cave-diving still scares the pants off me. Fascinates me nearly as much.

If anyone is interested I wrote an article about another "experience" I had while diving.

It involves:
Hanging on to a decompression trapeze so the boat can tow me out of the shipping lanes.

Attempting to complete my final 35 mins of deco while losing consciousness.

Asphyxia underwater.
Asphyxia on the boat.

Bit long to post here - I can email it to you if you want.

@Trimix - 😯 blimey!

I've caved a bit in my youth - loved it, especially the sporting wet caves. Left the sport when I started uni and haven't been for over 22 years now. Back then I would have loved to continue into cave diving as a progression from caving, but then I got hooked on climbing instead. Cave diving remains still utterly fascinating to me now. A world that most folk never experience is a truly special thing.

Trimix - Member

If anyone is interested I wrote an article about another "experience" I had while diving.

It involves:
Hanging on to a decompression trapeze so the boat can tow me out of the shipping lanes.

Attempting to complete my final 35 mins of deco while losing consciousness.

Asphyxia underwater.
Asphyxia on the boat.

Bit long to post here - I can email it to you if you want.

For some weird and horrific reason I'd like to read it. email in profile.

Thanks

Me too; it's horrifying and fascinating, at the same time. I'm not one for phobias, (I'm fairly sure I haven't got any [i]irrational[/i] fears) but this thread is so full of '**** that' for me. It's just too much risk, for too little benefit, for me. One question for the divers; how much redundancy is built into the non rebreathing systems these cave divers use? I know open circuit divers have a spare mouthpiece, but that in that article about Dave Shaws accident, a single piece of equipment broke that put his colleague in massive danger. It just seems people are putting themselves at risk of equipment failure, whilst feeling intoxicated, with literally no way to escape if stuff goes tits up. Bonkers risk 😯

Email sent.

As regards redundancy for a challenging dive I have:
4 or 5 methods of buoyancy control
6 regulators - depending on gas mix
2 depth gauges
2 timers
1 back up deco plan (plus my memory)
2 programmable deco computers
2 reels
2 masks
2 lights
2 cutting devices
2 slates for surface communication
2 DSMB's
Being able to alter the deco plan on the fly means I can utilise the gasses I carry - which can be up to 6.

Basically I don't have any thing that is mission critical that isn't backed up. I also practice doing the deco and accent blind folded or without a depth gauge or without a timing device or both.

Its the planning that I enjoy as much as putting yourself in a position where only you are in control and only you have planned the event.

I never do it with a "buddy" - I only carry enough gas for myself, so having someone else along just adds complications and therefore risks.

No redundant wine or cheese. Im out 😉

in a cave you're mostly in charge of your own fate.....theres no distracted mum/texting kid behind the wheel about to wipe you out. I think we just evolved to fear dark water/enclosed spaces....in a few thousand years we'll have a phobia of people text driving.

Really interesting read, x2 Trimix, thank you. Still think you're bonkers, but you're definitely well prepared bonkers! Still too full of nope for me though!

Trimix

Interesting and scary read. How have your following deep dives gone? Did you get any feedback as to the cause/have you change your methodology since the incident?

Cheers

Mike

I spoke to a couple of Doctors who fully understand mixed gas diving. Basically they said it was 'probably' a reaction of the lung to the high Oxygen content in the mix. Sort of an irritation.

No one is sure, but Oxygen at high percentages is quite bad for you, the inside of the lung inflames and is unable to absorb the gas.

Following that the next day I reduced the final Deco mix to a much lower O2. I was OK.

Further dives I used a max of 70% O2, which also has the added benefit of being a gas that you can get onto early in the deco. Should the dive go wrong it gives you more flexibility

I've never liked using pure O2 as its only useful from about 6m upwards - which is no good if you need gas at say 20m.

How the gas affects you is very individual, I've altered my deco gradient after lots of experiments.

Still got bent a few times, but it was more of a skin rash rather than losing sight in one eye - which was alarming to say the least.

If you want to read about major cave diving exploration it's worth looking up the WKPP)(Wakulla Karst Plains Project). They've done some epic deep long cave exploration with an impressive safety record, and have evolved an entire system of kit selection & configuration, skills, dive planning and decompression theory that is really all about diving as a team more than an individual. It caused a lot of friction when it was first being promoted by a pretty brash guy, and the flame wars on the techdiver forum were incredible. It's all got a lot more respectable now, and is a bit more mainstream.

As someone who couldn't go into wookie hole and had to snorkel on the barrier reef, I find reading about this fascinating and terrifying in equal measure? I dont think I haveclaustrophobia, and have been in fully smoked out compartments with breathing apparatus, but the thought of diving into a cave makes me shudder just sitting here in my garden!

I would be interested to read your article trimix but it will scare the beejeezus out of me 🙂

I'd be interested in having a read of that, Trimix, email is in profile

Could you send me a copy too.
Andysredmini at hotmail dot com

Thanks in advance

I think most of us like nice wide open spaces 🙂

Anybody watched The Descent? One film I won't watch again it freaks me out so much.

Email sent as requested.

Would appreciatively about your dives as well, even if it does freak me out (though like Phil40 I would happily run round in zero visibility in full SCBA all day).

It's an utterly fascinating sport that you need a mentality that most probably don't possess for.

Trimix, a copy would great too.

The nearest I have got to this sort of stuff is a few wreck penetration dives, but nowhere near these sort of levels of commitment. Dived a few easy caves around Gozo, but I don't think the cave diving side of the sport really appeals to me.

Email sent 🙂

in case anyone hasn't read that 'Raising the Dead' article on the first page...

it's a long read but really good. Absolutely gripping. Quite impressive considering it's written in such sober, understated tones throughout.

Don't read it last thing before bed though 😉

When I got wedged firmly into a small hole at 95m I did think about all the stories I read where others ended up dead.

But that moment of thinking was very short - at 95m you can actually see the tank pressure gauge move with each breath. It kind of focuses your mind. Oh, and for every minute I spent at that depth it adds about 12 mins of Deco time.

I was not carrying much spare.

The other thing that went through my mind was a feeling of embarrassment at getting stuck and how sunny it was before I started the dive.

Contrary to popular belief, your life does not flash past when you think your likely to die 🙂

So you didn't think 'wish I had a rebreather"? 🙂 For me that took a lot of the latent time pressure off deep dives, giving more flexibility on planning. Obviously bail out strategy and capacity is still a limit. Though they're no panacea, one of my memorable experiences was on the Afric, when I realised my scrubber was flooding and the joys of a co2 hit were making themselves known, all at close to 80m with a swim back to the shotline...

I like the simplicity of open circuit and not mixing water and electrics. But yeah, I know what you mean - on one dive I took the wrong route back out of a cave - turned out to be a dead end.

Its the bail out by using tanks that puts me off. Bit like going tubeless, but still having to carry a spare tube with you 🙂

I've just ordered a copy of Raising the Dead.

This is also a good read, I didn't realise quite how far from rescue, if things go wrong, those deep cavers were.

[url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blind-Descent-Quest-Discover-Deepest/dp/1849018561/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1462981038&sr=8-1&keywords=blind+descent ]Blind Descent[/url]

A real eye opening book is Sheck Exley's Caverns Measureless to Man. It's an amazing book as is anything written by Martyn Farr. As a young caver I met Martyn in the SWCC hut and had no idea why my mates were bowing and scraping at his feet.

I really need to get back into caving again, anyone else fancy a trip?

Cheers Trimix, interesting read that

farrs "the darkness beckons" is a good read. Quite sobering if you write down each divers name when you come across them, then cross them off when the cark it.

Anyone interested in watching the movie on a big screen?
trying to arrange a screening in Lincoln and just wondering what the interest would be if we manage to sort it.

Will be screened in Lincoln
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/diving-into-the-unknown-theritzcinema-tickets-26148680407