F1 2021 – spoilers here

I’m quite sure if Masi wants help he could just ask and have assistant race directors

I thought he’d already appointed Christian Horner as his assistant.

All cars drive into the pit lane in race order.(note, nobody actually pits)
Set up timed lights at the top of the pit lane. \
You aren’t allowed over the line until your light goes.
Pit lane speed limit still applies.

How do you restart 4 cars that are within 2s of each other?

I think we are getting a bit bogged down in the SC stuff. Yes, it’s not perfect but by and large it works pretty well because everyone knows how it works and what to do ,they accept there is a random element or chance in the timing but that is the same for everyone.
The problem here isn’t that an SC was called but that one team (Merc) made a strategic call based on the assumption that the procedure would be followed and understandably feel aggrieved that it wasn’t.
Whatever SC rules we come up with will inevitably favour some teams or drivers at some times and others at other times but as long as the rules are followed and everyone can see that it was fair then they accept the element of chance. It’s the changing the rules mid race which is the issue, not whatever those rules happen to be.
RB are not at fault here (yes, they were on the radio to Race Control but that is allowed so they will do it, they broke no rules) Merc broke no rules, and were also on the radio arguing their corner. The issue is not to do with what the rules are, the issue is to do with just making up new ones whenever they feel like it. That is simply unacceptable and heads must roll.

I disagree, the SC is still stupid as someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair? It often isn’t such a big issue because everyone pits for new tyres and retains their position. More racing on circuit is needed rather than undercuts and strategy

It doesn’t even need to be the PL, it could be the starting grid. Just a way of preserving the pre-SC time gaps.

And when the last car away was also just about to be lapped, your idea starts to get dangerous

Yeah, agree the SC isn’t really the problem here. Yes it does generally penalise the leader more than anyone else but if you’ve got different drivers vying for the lead at different GPs it should even itself out over the course of a season.

The issue was the race director deciding he didn’t want the title race ending behind the safety car (which it would have done at any other race) so changed the rules but in doing so (possibly) inadvertently almost guaranteed Max the win (whereas until the SC he had almost no chance of a win, it would have needed Hamilton to have a mechanical/crash for Max to have caught/passed him).

If Max had have been closing fast enough that he would have caught Hamilton then it would have made a lot more sense to do what Masi did as finishing the race behind the SC would have prevented an inevitable on-track battle but the reality was Lewis had won bar a mechanical issue (or crashing himself).

I disagree, the SC is still stupid as someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair?

Because everyone knows that is a possibility and will think accordingly. I’m not saying it’s perfect, just saying that consistency and following the rules is probably more important than tweaking those rules, no point having any if the RD can just make up new ones

Well Bernie said on R4 this morning that the results should stand apparently.
So that’s all right then.

dc1988
Free Member

I disagree, the SC is still stupid as someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair? It often isn’t such a big issue because everyone pits for new tyres and retains their position. More racing on circuit is needed rather than undercuts and strategy

It’s just the least bad option. Little delay to the race and the marshalls get to recover the car(s) and clean up the track in safety as everyone is in one spot.

Well Bernie said on R4 this morning that the results should stand apparently.

Which cements his position as chief dick in my mind.

It waould be quite easy to have a rule which says you can’t finish the race under a safety car. If it looks like that is waht is going to happen then the race gets red flagged. You could even have a minimum number of laps to be raced after the race restarts. Job done.

Personally I think the results should stand. Does anyone want to see the WDC decided in court?

But the FIA should admit to their failings and either issue clarifications or change the safety car procedure. Automatic red flag after a set percentage of race distance (85 or 90% for example) is a good suggestion.

I’m still in disbelief over yesterday result.. Lewis did everything right and deserved the title and to be robbed in that manner! The way in which it was done was purely for TV entertainment regardless of the drivers… Like giving a boxer who is on the ropes after been knocked down several times to have a free shot and knockout.. crazy!!

Race should have finished under the safety car but that doesn’t make for good TV

From Autosport forum:

AMuS is reporting Ross Brawn saying that next year the team principle-to-race director radio communication will be cancelled. So not just the broadcast, but the actual communication. It leads to too much pressure on the race director.

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/218801-michael-masi/page-18#entry9722957

someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair?

It’s not fair. Like it’s not fair when Bottas skittles everyone in a wet start. Or when a tyre fails when you’re leading the race Or when someone triggers a yellow flag in Q3 when you’re on a pole lap. Or a million other things. Welcome to motorsport!

But everyone accepts it’s not fair and deals with it, because it’s out in the open and agreed and on the whole better than the alternatives.

Nicely put Bez, can easily add a dozen more things like that onto your list too

Personally I think the results should stand. Does anyone want to see the WDC decided in court?

I would prefer it was decided fairly and I don’t believe the result yesterday was fair so yes – I would prefer it was decided in a court (and not just an FIA hearing).

because it’s out in the open and agreed

However the decision made on the fly yesterday that effected the outcome of the Championship was not agreed.

AMuS is reporting Ross Brawn saying that next year the team principle-to-race director radio communication will be cancelled. So not just the broadcast, but the actual communication. It leads to too much pressure on the race director.

Good. I said it a few pages back, having arguments and whining and, in one case, a debate on what position the driver would like in the restart is just insane. TP’s should be concentrating on their driver and team strategies, RD should be concentrating on the safety and fair play of the race. Not arguing back and forth on radio and certainly not on a publicly broadcast channel.

Automatic red flag after a set percentage of race distance (85 or 90% for example) is a good suggestion.

Yep with a set of rules on how to manage the end of the race. If (say) <3 laps to go, result stands as at that time. If 3-6 laps then a 1 lap race, grid start using the positions at the time of the flag. If 6-10 laps then a 3-lap race, grid start using the positions at the time of the flag. Teams can change tyres while under red flag. For example.

Although that does bring out the option that someone might “accidentally” pile it into a wall to trigger a race stop, fresh tyres and a grid start again – imagine if LH is out in front by 8 seconds, MV is chasing but his tyres are going off rapidly. Ask Perez to just bounce off a wall, race stops, brand new tyres for MV and he gets to line up right alongside LH for a final 1 lap shootout. I can certainly see some issues with policing all that!

It waould be quite easy to have a rule which says you can’t finish the race under a safety car. If it looks like that is waht is going to happen then the race gets red flagged. You could even have a minimum number of laps to be raced after the race restarts. Job done.

You’d have cars running out of fuel with any extra laps

They use a lot less fuel behind the safety car.
Anyway, it would be a good test of fitness if all the drivers had to push their cars to the finish… hell, I’d watch that.

I remember Mansell trying to do it

Bez
Full Member
someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair?

It’s not fair. Like it’s not fair when Bottas skittles everyone in a wet start. Or when a tyre fails when you’re leading the race Or when someone triggers a yellow flag in Q3 when you’re on a pole lap. Or a million other things. Welcome to motorsport!

Bez all your examples are uncontrollable whereas the SC is rule that could be changed to be more fair.

Makes you wonder if they short fuelled Perez not with the intention of slowing Hamilton in the middle of the race, but with the intention of having him run out of fuel toward the end, thus triggering a safety car in the event they were trailing in second…The scenario would’ve played out similar to how it did in the race. If you don’t need it you simply retire the car and no-one is any the wiser. They’d already pretty much given up on the constructors championship.

I’ve heard a lot of folks saying MV deserves to be champion, but it was unfair the circumstances that he won it. That’s surely a bit contradictory

Surely the only way he would deserve to be champion is if he had fairly accumulated more points than Lewis over the season, something which he would have failed to do if not for the intervention of the race director in highly dubious circumstances

I’d have been happy with MV as champion had he actually won the race yesterday, but he didn’t, he was gifted it by a purposefully skewed application of the rules. It doesn’t seem right. It doesn’t sit right.

ctk
Full Member
Bez all your examples are uncontrollable whereas the SC is rule that could be changed to be more fair.

Yet not one suggestion so far has showed fairness, all they’ve shown is swapping a rule that favours one party for one that favours another

Nothing wrong with the current SC rules, it adds to the racing in some cases and has worked for years. As others have said, the issue is that the SC rules were not applied to the letter of the law. Unless Lewis crashed or had a mechanical, he would have won the race and the title. Red Bull know that, Verstappen knows that, everyone knows that.

The only way things could change is if there was interference. Yes, a SC is an interference, but had the rules been applied as they should have been (and have probably been at every other race with the current SC rules) the result is the same. Lewis wins. To change the outcome of the race through an in-race rule change/amendment is not right.

A red flag would have given the potential for the same outcome; yes it would still be harsh on Lewis, but at least he/Mercedes would have been able to prepare for it and the playing field is levelled in the fairest possible manner. As far as I see it, that’s the two options Masi had; Red Flag and standing start ala Baku earlier this year or stick with the SC and finish the race under it as per the written regs.

What Masi seems to fail to see is that he cannot make everyone happy. Charlie knew that and he said it as it was and acted accordingly. Either of those eventualities I outlined before, someone is going to peed of with so much as stake. Accept that, stick the rule book to the letter and don’t let the teams have a direct line through to yourself during the race.

Bez all your examples are uncontrollable whereas the SC is rule that could be changed to be more fair.

Yes, but that’s why I said “it’s out in the open and agreed and on the whole better than the alternatives” rather than “it’s just another uncontrolled variable”. In a way it’s like Churchill said of democracy: the worst form of government, apart from all the others we’ve tried.

Anyway, don’t forget that the SC results from an equally uncontrollable events, and some other examples could be made more “fair” anyway: lost your Q3 lap? Halt the session and you can have another go. But those alternatives don’t really work. They’re mostly wildly impractical for various reasons, and they all have secondary effects that just transfer the unfairness to some other, perhaps less visible, target.

I’ve heard a lot of folks saying MV deserves to be champion, but it was unfair the circumstances that he won it. That’s surely a bit contradictory

Not really, because, again, motorsport. Did he deserve to be sent to the wall in Baku? Did he deserve to get taken out in Hungary? Points are about luck as well as achievement, and while achievement is about deserving it, luck isn’t (at least in the “random chance” sense rather than the “you make your own luck” sense). He’s absolutely a deserving champion, but had it not been for a very controversial and unorthodox—which “a lot of folks” clearly see as “unfair”—set of decisions by the race director, he would not have been champion.

Yet not one example so far has showed fairness, all they’ve shown is swapping a rule that favours one party for one that favours another

Luck/chance/random events/etc are fair a always been part of sport. Yes, they benefit some more than others, all kinds of weird stuff happens, remember that protester running about on the track and costing Hakkinen a win or the advertising hording which fell on Alesi (I think) or Montoya and Barrachello being taken out by a drain cover, all kinds of weird stuff.
The point is they are chance events, the event might favour one driver or another but the system does not. What happened on Sunday was different, that was not Luck or chance but a contrived event by the officials.
Should the result stand? I don’t know, and TBH I’m not sure I care any more. LH was robbed but through no fault of MV’s and further messing with the results will do the sport no good at all, even if to correct a perception of injustice. The only thing which should definitely happen is that we get a new RD. This isn’t an isolated example of him making a dogs breakfast of things, just the most high profile

What Masi seems to fail to see is that he cannot make everyone happy.

Furthermore it’s not the job of the Race Director to make people happy. It doesn’t matter if he makes everyone unhappy providing he runs the race in accordance with the regs.

The point is they are chance events, the event might favour one driver or another but the system does not. What happened on Sunday was different, that was not Luck or chance but a contrived event by the officials.

Absolutely, and the odd thing is that if he’d just given the free pass right away there’d barely be a discussion. But what we’ve got is a leader that flip-flops under pressure….. Michael Masi is Boris Johnston?!

My worry for next year is that the the comms go away – good – but Masi is now in charge but under an increased veil of secrecy. He’d have to do a near perfect job next season for that to work out well for F1

Interesting tweet taken from the Autosport Forum link above…

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jon_Startin/status/1470337713933017091

Can I take a moment to congratulate one winner that seems uncontentious at least.

Vettel was this year’s overtaking champion. Which as he puts it means he underperformed in qualifying.

What happened on Sunday was different, that was not Luck or chance but a contrived event by the officials.

This sums it up for me

I posted a few pages back:

I believe the majority of motorsport fans want to see them race hard, but fairly, and whoever wins would be a worthy champion.

What we don’t want is another event, where it’s decided on by the stewards/incidents making everything look like a farce as it did in Saudi.

Seems like we had another Saudi…

If we shuffled the races around, and the Abu Dhabi race had been earlier in the season, would the same decisions have been made?

Assuming all was fair before Sunday then no, Verstappen didn’t deserve the title as he wasn’t the best driver. I guess the reason why people’s say Verstappen deserves it is because it hasn’t been fair all season for either Lewis or Max, they both arguably deserve it but it’s a shame we have to go back and add up all the times each driver had some bad luck and compare with each other. I would have preferred a red flag and two lap race for the title with fresh tyres.

“Makes you wonder if they short fuelled Perez not with the intention of slowing Hamilton in the middle of the race, but with the intention of having him run out of fuel toward the end, thus triggering a safety car in the event they were trailing in second…The scenario would’ve played out similar to how it did in the race”

There is simply no other explanation.

Mind that he would have had to have deliberately run out of fuel, park the car on the track and make sure it was in a position thats hard to recover so they don’t just throw the VSC. Seems like people might be reaching a bit with that theory….

There is simply no other explanation.

After the race, Sergio Perez revealed why Red Bull retired his car at the end of the Abu Dhabi race. Perez was 3rd and hence many wondered why Red Bull relinquished a podium place. But Perez admitted that his engine was on the limit and hence had his engine failed at the end of the race, which would have extended the safety car and prevented Max’s last-lap pass on Lewis.

Statement from UEFA: Max Verstappen has been declared the winner of this season’s Champions League.

— Dan Walker (@mrdanwalker) December 13, 2021

😀

If I may don my tinfoil hat, I thought it very odd where Giovanazzi chose to park up.