F1 2021 – spoilers here

If it had been any other race, it would’ve just finished under the safety car. The stewards acceded to RBs request for a single lap of racing knowing full well that they had all the advantages.

 Lewis has been talking about green issues, maybe this will make him actually do something

Green issues…really, spare me his greenwashing “I care” rhetoric about the environment . His carbon footprint for one race weekend is probably more than mine for a whole year.

Shame it ended how it did – Masi absolutely needs to go, he’s got no business being a race director. They do also need to try and limit the team comms to the RD during a race (although there should be some).

Gutted for Hamilton but Max does deserve the title on balance, better this way anyway than being decided in the courts and Hamilton being given the title.

I also get that there’s a lot of variables in a race but ffs the FIA need to sort out the regulations and take away as much ambiguity (or RD discretion) as possible – given all the money involved in F1 the title coming down to call to allow the drivers one lap to race on (but massively biased in favour of one driver) is a joke. Masi’s comment to Toto about it being a motor race shows he clearly doesn’t understand what he’s doing.

I also get that there’s a lot of variables in a race but ffs the FIA need to sort out the regulations and take away as much ambiguity (or RD discretion) as possible – given all the money involved in F1 the title coming down to call to allow the drivers one lap to race on (but massively biased in favour of one driver) is a joke.

Careful what you wish for. I’m not an afficionado of motorsport but I am of football and the circular arguments about whether referees have to apply letter of the law vs applying judgement and discretion are never ending. Do you want consistency irrespective of circumstance, if that isn’t always the ‘right’ decision

The protest decision explains this though – 48.13 states that the safety car goes in at the end of *this current* lap and the decision can’t be changed, so over rules 48.12 that says about the following lap. 48.12 also says it only applies after the message “all lapped cars to overtake” is issued (which it wasn’t).

The way I read it, though, 48.12 doesn’t make provision for the “SC in” call to be made at just any old time: it defines the earliest point at which the SC can come in. Once the call is made we’re on to 48.13, sure, but making that call too early would seem to contravene 48.12.

I can’t see anything in the rules which says that they can’t decide to get lapped cars out of the way to save them from interfering in the race result. It was pretty much clear that none of the other drivers wanted to get in the way of the championship fight.

But then I can’t see anything that leave the option of choosing to bring one car on the lead lap onto the rear of another, while leaving them protected from the rear. The drivers may have wanted to avoid getting tangled up in a collision with Max or Lewis, but if you’d asked Sainz whether he’d fancy the opportunity for a second place or even a win on the last lap, then if he’d said “no” then if I was Binotto I’d have torn up his contract there and then. And if I were Toto then I’d be suggesting to Mattia that he might like to make that point to the FIA. Can you imagine if that had happened when Todt and Brawn were running Ferrari? Why should they be pegged at third place? Masi’s glib response may have been “we went racing, Toto,” but we didn’t. The FIA chose who should race and who shouldn’t. That’s not racing.

Again, though, that’s just how I read it and I’m no lawyer. And I’m of the opinion that the result shouldn’t change—but the FIA should.

Do you want consistency irrespective of circumstance, if that isn’t always the ‘right’ decision

I think so, yeah. Otherwise it’s just a lottery and no-one knows where they stand in any given situation.

If pitting under SC is for safety (in case of tyre damage), make it mandatory for all cars….

Maybe not 😂

Paddy Power are paying out on both Max and Lewis wins.
Do gambling companies often do that?

Just a pure cash vs PR opportunity equation for them during a massively controversial sporting moment.

Green issues…really, spare me his greenwashing “I care” rhetoric about the environment . His carbon footprint for one race weekend is probably more than mine for a whole year.

@bruneep – He’s sold his private jet and now flies commercial, drives an electric car and is a vegan, he also attends far less events than he used to due to environmental concerns. In his private and personal life, he’s doing far more than most. Do you also factor in YOUR job into your climate impact? He’s also using his job as a platform to promote environmental and equality issues.

Once the call is made we’re on to 48.13, sure, but making that call too early would seem to contravene 48.12.

On top of that, surely there’s some provision for the SC staying out after that call if something else happens? Regulation 48.Grosjean perhaps. It can’t be absolutely absolute.

Careful what you wish for. I’m not an afficionado of motorsport but I am of football and the circular arguments about whether referees have to apply letter of the law vs applying judgement and discretion are never ending. Do you want consistency irrespective of circumstance, if that isn’t always the ‘right’ decision.

One of the big problems with football and the f1 debacle is the unwillingness of the authorities to admit a mistake and show they have learnt from it. You can’t make a rulebook that governs every eventuality, but you can create guidance and principles that demonstrate a fair path, and when mistakes by referees, stewards and race directors are made, then guidance can be publically explained how they would want the decision making process to be made in the future.

I think so, yeah. Otherwise it’s just a lottery and no-one knows where they stand in any given situation.

So, hypothetical but possible, if they’d both had had chances to stop and were in ‘equivalent’ cars / tyres at the time; no-one’s at a mechanical advantage or disadvantage and the opportunity is there by flexible application of the laws to ‘let them race’ to decide it, with both teams in agreement that is what should happen.

You wouldn’t want that to be a possibility?

Is there any reason for actually having a safety car anyway?

For safety. Wasn’t it introduced to reduce the number of first-corner collisions on restarts?

One or two big teams or big drivers moving to formula E could be the death F1.

Completely the opposite…. Audi and BMW are pulling out.

If you pit under the safety car you should go to the back of the pack. You shouldn’t be able to win a race by getting free pit stops under the SC. Same on the red flag. Change of tyres – go back 5 grid places on the restart.

One thing that does hearten me is that Christian Horner will always know that the Championship was won with a cloud of doubt over it.

He’ll always know, in his heart, that it wasn’t done the right way.

It’ll be like a little asterisk in his head every time it’s mentioned.

“So Christian, Red Bull: 2021 World Champions*”

Thoroughly dislike the man

You wouldn’t want that to be a possibility?

After yesterday’s debacle, I really wouldn’t want the race director to have any discretion as to how to interpret rules! 🙂 That was exactly the problem – Masi made it up on the fly rather than following the rule book, if the rules had been applied as written there could be no complaints. Instead it was gifted to the contender on the day who’d been consistently slower – faster guy did absolutely everything right and still lost the title.

On top of that, surely there’s some provision for the SC staying out after that call if something else happens? Regulation 48.Grosjean perhaps. It can’t be absolutely absolute.

The regs state the _earliest_ that an SC should come in. If something happens after it is called in but before the race resumes then a new SC period is called and the process just starts again

You wouldn’t want that to be a possibility?

What you’re describing is something that involves the explicit agreement of all parties. Which, for one thing, is rather unlikely because it requires someone to give up an advantage for no good reason, and which, for another, is entirely different to yesterday’s safety call where one team was lobbying for one racing lap and the other was vehemently objecting to the exceptional procedure.

Sure, pragmatism is one thing, but giving teams guidance on which they base their decisions, and then moving the goalposts with no notice, is quite another.

Had Mercedes been informed this would happen, their best bet would have been to pit Hamilton for softs. As it stood, their best bet was staying out because absolutely everything indicated that unless the Williams was cleared in no time at all, the race would finish under SC.

Thoroughly dislike the man

He’s remarkably graceless, whether winning or not. Has anyone seen a transcript of the conversation between Red Bull and race control under the SC? I suspect that would make for interesting reading.

There certainly wasn’t agreement by all parties!… 🙂

F1’s midfield runners left “speechless” and confused by controversial late restart

Same on the red flag. Change of tyres – go back 5 grid places on the restart.

I think it’s OK to let them fettle on Red flags. In fact I would have red flagged it as soon as I realised (If I were race director) there was no way to end it without being specifically disadvantageous to either driver. Should have red flagged with 3 or 4 to go. Everyone gets fresh rubber, with race positions reset – straight forward few lap race for the win.

He’ll always know, in his heart, that it wasn’t done the right way.

I’ll guarantee that won’t be the case.

You wouldn’t want that to be a possibility?

No. Rules is rules.
Some require judgement, who was at fault in this crash or that crash, was that deliberate, did that driver gain an advantage, but once a decision is reached the rules state what should happen and that is what should happen. And in terms of how the race is run I can’t see there being any interpretation for it to be open to, it may be a judgement call for instance whether to have a VSC or full SC but once that call is made the rules say how it should work.
Once we have a RD making it up as he goes along we have chaos, no rule can be taken as fixed. Massi has to go

Should have red flagged with 3 or 4 to go. Everyone gets fresh rubber, with race positions reset – straight forward few lap race for the win.

If they MUST create an artificial shoot out, that would have been the way to do it.

don’t get me wrong, I’m just posing a counter-opinion. Personally I think it was an awful decision. Irrespective of whether the regs allow for discretion, the purpose of the officials is to apply the laws without favour, and to not influence the outcome of the event in doing so.

They got it wrong, by both application of the regs, and in that race at least by influencing the outcome.

Whether over the course of a season these things even out, IDK.

Should have red flagged with 3 or 4 to go. Everyone gets fresh rubber, with race positions reset – straight forward few lap race for the win.

Hindsight is wonderful, pretty sure Massi will be thinking excctly that this morning too.

Massi has to go

I would have thought so. But then maybe Liberty Media are absolutely delighted with the outcome. It will be talked about for years. Its sets up a perfect narrative for the 2022 season. I can almost hear the trailer style voiceover

Should have red flagged with 3 or 4 to go. Everyone gets fresh rubber, with race positions reset – straight forward few lap race for the win.

100% agree. The whole debacle was a shambles. If the FIA/F1 really, really want to mix things up from a false “entertainment” point of view, red flag the race, let them all change tyres and have a lap or two as a shootout. It’s not ideal from a Mercedes/Lewis point of view, but at least it’s fairer and everyone know where they stand, rather than having to make title changing decisions without knowing all the facts.

As some drivers have said, if this any other race or the title had been decided, it would have ended under safety car.

I’m not angry about Max being champion, but if the shoe was on the other foot and Lewis won it in that way Red Bull would be equally fuming and we’d still be in the same position, so the issue is clearly with the FIA and Masi. There is no way in well Charlie would have let anything like this go down. Masi lost control a while ago and he should resign and apologise to all the teams. Other drivers lost the opportunity Max was given because not all cars were allowed to unlap themselves. I can’t see that CAS will have a good view of the way things were handled if it ends up going that far… The decisions made in those last few laps smack of incompetence and complete disregard for keeping the race a fair sporting contest for all competitors.

They need to look at tarmac run off areas too.

I can’t imagine that the FIA are happy that they, and Massi, are the headlines today

Should have red flagged with 3 or 4 to go. Everyone gets fresh rubber, with race positions reset – straight forward few lap race for the win.

If only there was precedent for a red flag right near the end when an SC would probably do. Oh wait, Baku.

I can’t imagine that the FIA are happy that they, and Massi, are the headlines today

Oh, they’ll be fuming – what the hell do they do now? Masi’s dropped em right in it – can’t imagine the result will be changed, but how stupid do they look?

There certainly wasn’t agreement by all parties!… 🙂

Maybe those other teams should have protested too….as someone else said, if Riciardo and someone else hadn’t been between Sainz and Verstappen, Sainz might have attacked, forcing Max to defend and so not overtake Lewis. (Or maybe they’d have both passed him…😁)

They should write that sort of thing in. No safety car in the last six laps, always a red flag instead. And so on.

Spectacle is good, there’s no inherent problem with that. But create the framework for it before the racing, not during.

Bez +1

The pitting under SC needs looking at too. Fine if everybody can benefit equally, but clearly that’s not possible and it doesn’t seem fair that the driver who has been fastest and built up a good lead can be so disadvantaged. Of course they have to bunch behind the SC as the whole point is to create time for Marshall’s to run about on the track with no cars about, so they can’t change that.

Not sure a red flag would have been entirely fair, Max was on much younger tyres and catching at almost the required rate to give him a chance on the last lap, also Hamilton’s tyres could have fallen off a cliff or punctured late on. Lando had to pit for a puncture before Latifi’s shunt and his tyres were a similar age to Lewis’…

Also don’t agree with how it finished though but don’t think there would have been a perfect solution, looked to dangerous for a VSC to shift Latifi’s car.

there was no way to end it without being specifically disadvantageous to either driver.

Yes there was. Just leave those 5 cars between Lewis and Max. Lewis would have had enough to get around and win.

10 laps from the end Horner has already all but conceeded defeat and said Merc were too good on the day.

Max was on much younger tyres and catching at almost the required rate to give him a chance on the last lap,

Are you sure?

Max was on much younger tyres and catching at almost the required rate to give him a chance on the last lap, also Hamilton’s tyres could have fallen off a cliff or punctured late on

A tyre failure was an outside possibility—though Hamilton is generally one of the best at looking after tyres and if I recall they weren’t extending beyond Pirelli’s guidance—but Max was nowhere near closing on Lewis on pure pace; they were pretty much on the same lap times and had been since a couple of laps after Max pitted.