From the outside looking in
Downside list
Inflation
Job loss via Vauxhall EMA City etc
Reduced labour resources
Reduced Tax take
Increased borrowing
Increased interest rates

Upside list
? Anyone care to suggest a few things Jamby/Ninfan no pie in he sky bollocks just practical benefits for poor folks

One party state??? We have a government with a slender majority. Since when did that constitute a one party state.

We are truly living up to the remoaner tag line now and spouting more lies than Brexshiteers, which I thought was impossible. Talking of which:

Please, leave out the implied insults. I don’t want a row, just a nice discussion.

No insults and no row. Mol, you keep making factually incorrect statements which prevent a discussion, nice or otherwise.

You cant agree or disagree with statements based on false premises. It is a waste of time.

So, do you agree with the rest of Mol’s post?

So THM who is going to oust the Tories in the foreseeable?

No, there is nothing to agree or disagree with. Its a series of false premises.

The next election is 2020 IIRC – so lots to play for. The Tories will ultimately be blamed for Brexshit, so could well be close again. In the meantime, they have a slim majority coupled with the challenge of implementing something they (as a government) campaigned against – some one party state ^2

So THM you can see Labour getting sorted in less than 3 years tk become electable?

Or UKIP
Or the Lib Dems

Really

A week is a long time in politics, so three years is…

We shall see. At the moment, no. Still that doesn’t change the fact that in our so-called ‘one party state’ we have a government with a slim majority that is split over the major issue of the day and that recently lost its PM and leader having lost the referendum vote. I am trying to imagine what an alternative to our one party state might look like 😉

THM – on the red lines, immigration was the thing for the vocal minority (as proved by many polls) so TM making that a red line is deliberately screwing over the UK. FOM means access to a lot of things, as you say it’s all down to negotiation but TM has ruled stuff out from the start that means the UK is aiming for less than the Norway model from the start. Is that what she told parliament? The UK is now forced to accept a major change to it’s status that will be negotiated by a government with no mandate. If you want to claim that the UK voted for something specific your either talking shit or deluded. there was one vote with one question at no point was there anything more. If you think there was then maybe start with some pictures for the hard of understanding.

Mol, you keep making factually incorrect statements which prevent a discussion, nice or otherwise

Well if I’m wrong, correct me (nicely) and if I disagree, I’ll tell you why, also nicely. The very definition of a discussion 🙂

Now, I still don’t understand where I’m being incorrect. The leave campaign promised certain things, and May is giving us something different based on different priorities, no?

No

Not sure why the Vauxhall workers of Ellsmere Port or Luton are worried about their jobs when those areas voted leave. They must have fully considered the impact of their leave vote and how that might impact on any change in GM’s business structure

Yes they should be happy to be making the necessary sacrifices to make Little England Bitain great again.

Mike, perhaps it might be helpful to review events

1. The government made a commitment to hold an in-out referendum and to respect the result whatever the outcome
2. The government, including TM, sought a mandate to keep our membership of the EU
3. They were not granted their wish – they lost, perhaps I should add “we” lost
4. The voters decided that the UK should leave the EU on the basis of three core issues: immigration/FoM; cost of membership; and faking control. N.B who is doing what here in terms of setting the agenda. The people overturned the wishes of the government. They set the red lines that you appear to want to ignore
5. Now that we are giving up our membership of the EU, the government is seeking to achieve the best access to the single market going forward. The options included four basic frameworks or a bespoke deal that combines features of some of them.
6. You are correct, some of the options are incompatible with the voters’ wishes to end FoM and cease payments to the EU – now we can see the causal links here
7. On the basis of the decision to trigger A50 being irrevocable, the HoC passed an Act with a large majority including not one-party but large sections of both major political parties

so lets see:

THM – on the red lines, immigration was the thing for the vocal minority (as proved by many polls) so TM making that a red line is deliberately screwing over the UK.

It was the most important issue for those who won the referendum and voted to Leave. What would you expect now, that the government should set out on the process by simply ignoring this? I see where the one=party state ideas are germinating from….

FOM means access to a lot of things,

Not really – there are four elements

as you say it’s all down to negotiation

No, both sides have started from the perspective that these are non-negotiables. Its all in the papers.

but TM has ruled stuff out from the start that means the UK is aiming for less than the Norway model from the start.

She didn’t, the voters did. But you are correct, the Norway option is incompatible with the current red lines. True. Hence we are not pursuing it. We are pursuing a bespoke model that lies at 2.75 on the spectrum between 3 FTA and 2 the CU

The UK is now forced to accept a major change to it’s status

N S Sherlock

that will be negotiated by a government with no mandate.

Other than the result of the referendum, that you seem keen to ignore

If you want to claim that the UK voted for something specific

The did, they voted to leave the EU. How much more specific can you get?

your either talking shit or deluded.

as above. The deluded bit is to pretend this didnt happen.

there was one vote with one question at no point was there anything more.

At the bLiar approach – people didnt understand the issues when they voted. Well I do have some sympathy with that view – see ^ for clear evidence. But so what? That is how it works. The Tories were elected on the basis of a commitment to hold a referendum and to respect the result.

If you think there was then maybe start with some pictures for the hard of understanding.

I doubt pictures are going to help. Remoaners will keep on moaning.

Sensible folk, will get on with life. Deal with what is actually in front of us, not what you wish was in front of us. Then we might make progress

Sensible folk, will get on with life. Deal with what is actually in front of us, not what you wish was in front of us. Then we might make progress

But as pointed out previously, you can’t make us.

We, the Remainers don’t have to ‘respect’ the vote because we consider it is bad for the UK, and we certainly don’t have to respect what May has decided is the way forward. Because again, we consider it is bad for the UK.

And, based on the various polls and data, it’s us, the Remainers who are the ones who actually make the country run. So quite frankly the Brexiters can moan all they like. But now, later (and probably for ever) we will blame them for what they brought on the country.

So no, we aren’t going to shut up nor are we going to accept what May is proposing – and we’re going to do our best to remind her that it’s election suicide, this might be the only thing that she’ll pay attention it.

And Corbin, he just needs disposing of, PDQ.

There are remainers and leavers who make the country run, to suggest otherwise is nonsense

I appreciate the honesty in not respecting the democratic vote. That’s clear.

In contrast, I don’t agree with the result but I respect it. You can decide which approach is more appropriate in a one party state democracy. It won’t make any difference to the result.

“respect” is a strange choice of word, THM. I’ll put my English teacher hat on for a post:

Respect: a high or special regard; esteem.

Respect can imply a perceived inequality, if you respect something you are inferior to it.

Respect comes from ‘the Greek word tim?sate, meaning “honor or value.” It means “to place a great value or high price on something.” ‘

So no, I have no respect for Brexit, Brexiters or Brexit apologists.

Fair enough, but we are not talking about that are we. We are talking about respecting the result of a democratic vote.

Quite simple.

Accept or respect?

There are democratic decisions I respect, others I accept and others I despise. The democratic process is flawed and sometimes gives a mandate to do something that objectively should never be accepted or respected and should be fought against.

Go through history and you’ll find some truly horrible “democratic” decisions.

Maybe ghe mods could close this one too?

Well good luck with your on-going protest at the result.

Meanwhile, those who do “actually” run things will get on with dealing with what is in front of us – this will include people on either side of the vote.

Thank you for the added value AA. No threatening behaviour here, so why close it?

THM I still believe that the majority of remainers make up the majority of the people that will end up bearing responsibility for making the Brexit work. I also think demand for well educated young people will increase, as ever the better educated/well off will prosper (the Tories will ensure this by loading the dice). The world that is coming has nothing in it for the working poor. Me and my kids no doubt will do well as we have assets, contacts, transferable skills and education, so I guess my procrastination is on behalf of others – maybe I should just shut up and exploit the opportunity for personal gain.

I think we ALL have a clear responsibility for making Brexshit work.

Good to see some sense coming out of Germany today. Sensible and promising.

I think we ALL have a clear responsibility for making Brexshit work.

That was said months ago and I’m sure brexshitters won’t be backwards in coming forwards to claim some sort of victory.

Panic.

European car manufacturers have far more production capacity than they need and PSA will probably want to consolidate its factories if it acquires GM Europe.

Vauxhall’s factories in Ellesmere Port and Luton are both very efficient, but they could face export tariffs when Britain leaves the single market, and probably the customs union, in two years – making those plants unviable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39016604

It was the most important issue for those who won the referendum and voted to Leave

It was? How do they know? I mean, there was a lot of talk by the leave campaigners, but how do we know it was actually the majority view?

I only agree I have to help make it work as I have no choice (well I actually do I can sell up and **** off – which I have considered) I don’t know if I can be comfortable with the divisions that are coming (yes I know closet socialism) I can remember life in a working class house in the 60s it was pretty shit and I think people forget how far we have come just in simple term a washing machine cost a months wages, hardly anyone from the working class went uni – slightly abstract but quality of life and opportunity in this country is pretty good, just not sure it’s going to stay that way for poor folks.

Reading?

And they’re getting windy there.

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/nearly-20-per-cent-readings-12589682

😉 should have been lower case!!! 😀

Good link though!!

I don’t believe I have any obligation, moral or otherwise, to try to make it work, any more than the kippers have an obligation to “respect” the 1973 referendum. When did that obligation end BTW?

I’ll be ok personally but it will screw up the lives of a lot of friends and colleagues and I will take every opportunity to oppose and frustrate the brexit at any cost brigade. I may lose, but not without a (metaphorical) fight.

Enjoy

Using their economic power is the way people protest whether consciously or subconsciously.

Take the behaviour of our little family unit since Brexit. Some of it a deliberate raising of a digit, some of it fear, some of it throwing in the towel.

Madame has organised a school trip to the UK for the last 10 years. This year’s trip has been cancelled.

I had a planned trip to the UK, I didn’t go as the last time I took a French registered car to the UK in a period of tension (mad cow disease) I suffered road rage. The number of French people doing research on holidays in American and booking them has fallen significantly since Trump’s election. The low pound should be boosting tourism, it did initially last Summer but by the Autumn it was down.

I transferred funds from The UK to France in the run up to the Brexit vote and more when the result came out. German and French institutions have more of my money to look after – I have more faith in the Euro than the pound despite your pessimism.

I do nothing to be enthusiastic when people ask advice about the UK. Pre June 23 I used to be quite a good ambassador for the UK, advising people on interesting things to do and places to visit.

I’m still using CRC but when the pound effect goes as it must when they buy new stock will I still buy from them? I have no idea of what the people at Rab and Buffalo think of Brexit but just the fact they are based in Sheffield makes me think that UKIP Brexiters will probably dealing with my order if I buy from them. I’m not sure I want to be seen with a British label, it’s just not chic anymore.

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

You’ve hit the nail on the head. That’s what Brexit has made many Europeans think of the British.

The anti-European propaganda in the British media made it to our media – it wasn’t nice.

Report of our nationals being abused and insulted in Britain post Brexit made it into our media. It’s clear we Europeans aren’t liked or welcome.

Clear as mud?

Teamhurtmore you are presenting a combination of your interpretation of the situation and your opinion as fact. Its a pragmatic and sensible assesment but not clear 1+1=2 type fact.

Molgrips argument is not really incorrect, technically yes there is a difference between membership and access. Still though the scenario vote leave presented was tariff free trade with the eu and an end to freedom of movement in tandem, doesn’t look like that will be achievable so therefore any mandate TM claims to have been given is not a definite.

Its perfectly possible to accept the mathematical result of the referendum but question the mandate that the govt claims it has. They’re different things.

Its also possible to ‘get on with things’ and have a good remoan at the same time. Thats what i’m doing. Software industry recruiter by day, remoaner by night (well just when i’ve got a few minutes to sign a petition, stir the pot in comments sections and forums, support the lib dems etc. actually but hopefully you get my point)

Edukator – Reformed Troll… Reformed ?

I really dont see this Edukator my family is French I only watch French TV I work with French and Expats, The attitude is if its what the Brits want let em get on with it, The French are far from happy with Europe they Know its a mess and a large number would like their borders back and more protectionist government.

I see very few if any any news articles about Brexit, There is far more to worry about with the explosive situation in Paris and the general feeling of insecurity.

We had a recent show where the Notaires society of France turned up to reassure British people that they would still be welcome after Brexit and still able to buy property here.

Sorry bill, but mol’s comments ARE factually incorrect with the latest one being confusing what options FoM affects and which ones it doesn’t. This is where 1 + 1 does equally 2 not the 6 that mol seems to believe.

Ditto, the difference between membership of and access to is not technical it is FUNDAMENTAL. If that is not understood, futherdebate is impossible/pointless. You might as well debate how good a tomato is for calculating the diameter of a circle.

I admit, I do have the odd moan while getting on with things too. However, my main complaint for now is the BS being used to reject the result of a democratic vote. That’s very poor,

However, my main complaint for now is the BS being used to reject the result of a democratic vote. That’s very poor,

My main complaint is a vote based on lies and racism, and i am not talking about a few months, i mean 40 years of BS. Democracy needs truth to function without it you have nothing.

I think we ALL have a clear responsibility for making Brexshit work.

Why ? A decision of political expediency by Mr Cameroon to keep the Tory party in power (which was probably never in doubt) has landed us in this mess. So you want us to help Dirty digger get Sky on the cheap and create a land of milk an honey for Hedge funds managers and tax exiles. Quite frankly **** that for a game of soldiers I’m out. I’ve got a telephone interview for a position in Barcalona Tuesday and face to face in Berlin the week after.

Good luck.