struggle to understand the difference between trading and having a trade agreement

Genuine question, as I’m neither here nor there on this vote. How does a trade agreement negotiated with the EU help individual countries within the EU? The necessary imports & exports of each member state differ greatly, and I can’t see how a blanket trade agreement can look after the interests of all to an equal extent. Surely that’s not a good thing?

Why not? That is one possibility if Germany is looking after number one.

Slight hijack.
I don’t know about you lot but I have noticed the behaviour of some of the German politicians are getting a bit weird as they becoming very too eager to please their Chancellor. Have you seen the political entourage surrounding her? A bit like their previous WWII Chancellor surrounded by his too eager “advisors” innit.
Could well be. At the risk of being labelled a small-minded, inward-looking, Little Englander xenophobe – incorrectly, I might add – maybe Germany knows whats coming and the sooner everyone in Europe is “in it together” the better, from the point of view of their economy.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-costs-idUSKCN0Y50DY

Actually the lefties are causing similar damage, if not more, in other part of the world. Their influence or ideology has led to ethic cleansing and genocide in some “naive” countries where the people thought they have found the ideal of life from China to South East Asia. This lefties ideology must be dismantle bits by bits otherwise the shite stirrer is going to cause more suffering to the people there. Think China is dismantling it slowly to replace it with their own ideology …

The Flying Ox – Member
Could well be. At the risk of being labelled a small-minded, inward-looking, Little Englander xenophobe – incorrectly, I might add – maybe Germany knows whats coming and the sooner everyone in Europe is “in it together” the better, from the point of view of their economy.

It is in our/your nature to look after number one so whether we “fight” as a united unit against whatever or fight as a coalition it does not matter. Just face up to the challenge. Just fight.

Is the EU membership as good as it gets?

We used to be a powerful nation trading round the world. Now we follow the US in to war and have no ambition.

You bed wetters aren’t on my team.

Out.

We used to be a powerful nation yes, I’m afraid those days are past we don’t have an empire any more and won’t ever have one again.
We still have a strong economy now but it is based on services for other nations and our own, why else do we have such a big trade imbalance.
Britain is a small nation that bats above its average, that is a good thing but to think that we can be a big powerful nation for ever more is deluded, the nations that have a near expendable workforce will lead in the future and as far as i can see being part of a large trading bloc (and yes it has flaws) is probably our only defence against fading into an unimportant island, despite our nuclear weapons.
Our major strength is our creativity and that is based on immigration which appears to be the main bogey man for the brexiters.

Our major strength is our creativity and that is based on immigration which appears to be the main bogey man for the brexiters.

Creavivity based on immigration 😯

My main bogey is uncontrolled immigration. If we are going to take 300-500,000 pa lets pick the best from the whole world and have the ability to turn the tap off if required.

You bed wetters aren’t on my team.

I’m crushed..

Considering the uk is fundamentally a mongrey nation it is exactly that mix of nationalities and different cultures that has made the uk what it is.
We can stand alone if the country chooses to do so but long term it will diminish us.

What that there Winston Churchill had to say about the matter of European unification…..& he knew one or two things about the Germans

..Speech..

This notion that we had an Empire in the past and somehow going forward we are reliant on a low growth Europe which is the one mired in the past is quite incredible to me. As per Obama the future is in the East, He deliberately and publically refocussed the US towards Asia and away from Europe, we need to do the same.

Britain is a small nation

No it isn’t! There are loads of unprovable statements and conjectures on this thread, buy this isn’t one. It’s a cold fact. We’re not small!

Considering the uk is fundamentally a mongrey nation it is exactly that mix of nationalities and different cultures that has made the uk what it is.
We can stand alone if the country chooses to do so but long term it will diminish us.

I also don’t understand the argument that leaving the EU equates to an end to all immigration, which appears to be the tack some on the “Remain” side appear to take.

We’re not small!

We are small in terms of geography and population on the global scale but we do punch massively above our weight. However times have changed and we will struggle, due to size, if we go it alone, Not impossible but certainly more difficult.

We used to be a powerful nation trading round the world. Now we follow the US in to war and have no ambition.

What parts of the world are you after conquering and subjugating? Be specific will you?Its sad that folk still hanker for an empire that did not exist even if their lifetime

@MrLeb absolutely he did, he discissed a United States of Europe but not for one second did he imagine Great Britain would be part of it. He felt a union between France and Germany would bring an end to the conflcit between those two nations.

We certainly will become a small nation if we adopt the “them and us” narrative and isolationist/xenophobic stance of the leading Brexiteers

We will remain a great nation if we continue to focus on “us together”, co-operation as well and competition, with a global outlook and an acceptance of the free movement of capital, goods and services and people. They are routes to success – past, present and future. Utter madness to pretend otherwise when the full weight of history is so clear.

…”us together”, co-operation as well and competition, with a global outlook and an acceptance of the free movement of capital, goods and services and people.

Why are these things only possible under membership of the EU? That is what you’re saying, isn’t it?

“The whole movement of the world is towards an interdependence of nations. We feel all around us the belief that it is our best hope, if independent, individual sovereignty is sacrosanct and inviolable, how is it that we are wedded to a world organisation?… How is it that we have undertaken this immense obligation for the defence of Western Europe…? It can only be justified and even tolerated because on either side of the Atlantic it is felt that interdependence is part of our faith and the means of our salvation.”

Churchill 1950

There not Ox. But – and this is the only relevant point – they are more likely in an IN context than an OUT one.

As I said the weight of history is behind this rather than the BS of the Brexiteers. Folly to throw away what is a pretty strong position – full access, no Euro, no Schengen, no political union, no bendy bananas etc….actually forget pretty strong, bloody strong position.

brexiteers round for supper tonight – must avoid the subject! – 4 consultants/ senior doctors last night with wonderful comment from 2 – of course its about money!!! 😉

they are more likely in an IN context than an OUT one.

Why? Apologies if it seems like I need to be spoon-fed this, but aside from it taking a certain amount of time to get our ducks in a row once out vs we already have most of our ducks in a row cos we’re still in, how do you come to the conclusion about the likelihood of those conditions? You’ve already agreed that the existence of those conditions and “Brexit” are not mutually exclusive.

Brexiters= bold, regain our place on the world stage, trade etc.

Remain = Cameron, Harriet Harman and the bloke who shagged our economy Mr Brown.

And most businessesmen and commentators.. Shit selective comment, Hora. Very poor.

Hora you are one deep thinker

Can you elaborate on the trade angle for me please?

I normally find STW to be a stimulating and articulate place, full of good info and advice.

The opinions being expressed on this thread are terrifying – truly cringeworthy… If it wasn’t for the topicality of the question, I’d say it’s enough to make me feel ashamed to be British (but that plays to Brexiteers, who seem to have some false claim on patriotism)

The U.K. joined the EEC when I was 6. I don’t remember the political issues of the time, but bloody hell, I can recognise how much the country has changed – and mostly for the better. My school at the time had outside sh!thouses, we (just) had a B&W telly, baths were once a week and the country was deeply racist & sexist.

The U.K. is unrecognisable compared to when I was a kid / teenager / young man. Better off, more liberal, more tolerant (I thought). Of course, it would be stupid to say is down to Europe, but I truly believe that progress has been quicker because of the influence and interaction with our European neighbours.

And economically? Where are we now compared to 1973? Massively better off, for most – financially and in our life choices. As a comparison on the “progress” front, there was an interesting analysis on the BBC website about Trump, and his appeal. American “blue collar” workers are no better of in 2016 than they were in the mid-70s. I cannot imagine anyone would claim the same for Britain. And much of the US can hardly be accused of moving forward with liberal attitudes.

Nothing to do with Europe? Possibly not, but they’re changes that have improved our lives whilst the Country has been a member of the European club.

Rkk01 I feel insulted with the war in Europe and other insulting comments designed to offend intelligence. But hey.

Why sink to to the level of the politicians who are sinking Britain. Maybe with a no vote we’ll have political changes et al.

Brexiters= bold, regain our place on the world stage, trade etc.

And how, exactly, are we going to do that???

Militarily? WTF?
Economically? – of course!! Our strong manufacturing base will flood the global market with our superior and competitive products – or perhaps our illustrious bankers will deviously extort our way back to the top of the global league table…

I’d expect. No I’m mightily heartened, that my two teenagers have a better grasp of reality. I just hope they don’t have to FO to a less backwards country* to make their way in the world 😡

* in the event that this ridiculous anti-intellectual coup is pulled off by the disingenuous politicians that are pushing their own self interested agenda

Maybe with a no vote we’ll have political changes et al.

Could you expand on what changes you think will happen with a no vote ?

What with you being intelligent should be a piece of piss for you.

@tmh why avoid the subject, seems like a perfect oppotunity to hear the other side of the argument over a glass or three ?

Medical is an interesting one, large numbers of qualified personnel seeking work in UK underming wages ? Personal experience here of family members who failed (by some margin) to get into French medical/dentistry/vetinary/pharmaceutical schools hop over the border to Spain to qualify. Good idea or undermining standards ? Chapeau for studying in Spanish though.

What with you being intelligent should be a piece of piss for you.

Let’s play nicely tonight, its Eurovision 😀

My gut wants to vote out but my heads says you Inny’s have stronger arguments.

A few years ago my friend worked for an engineering company (part of Honeywell). They were tempted to move over to Switzerland with a great tax deal, so off they went and took all those jobs with them. Would leaving allow us to do the same for other businesses?

@rkk we weren’t particularly good at manufacturing many things so that’s dead. Innovation amd high tech value added is where its at. Your kids will be competing for work and housing and against many mkre Europeans willing tomwork for less and live in smaller places as its still a big uptick for them versus home, As for your cynasism this is a democracy and if Leave win it will be against the political establishment by the grass roots. That’s a very big ask but its possible

@rkk we weren’t particularly good at manufacturing many things so that’s dead. Innovation amd high tech value added is where its at.

Oh, I know that – at least for large parts of it (we’ve always been quietly quite good at the specialist & high end)

Your kids will be competing for work and housing and against many mkre Europeans willing tomwork for less and live in smaller places as its still a big uptick for them versus home

That I am afraid, is a filthy, disgusting argument… You should truly be ashamed. I truly hope you reflect and reconsider. The same used to be said about about those that tried to take on corner shops – I won’t repeat the deeply racist & offensive term that used to be used.

As for my kids having to compete – of course they will. I have had to compete through my career – to get qualified, to get a job in the “middle class” professions, to advance and prosper(ish) in my career. It’s a competitive world – every day. Win work, deliver work, get paid, develop reputation, get more work.

And that is why is it is important to hear the business voices. We will still need to compete. Every day. With each other, and with our global competitors

Let’s play nicely tonight, its Eurovision

If you make it stop I will vote leave 😉

Would leaving allow us to do the same for other businesses?

Well we can anyway as Europe does not set our tax laws and Switzerland is in the EU – via the EFTA. Its the most complicated single market partner but it has to comply with the EU sp the company did not leave due to anything to do with the EU as it moved from one EU Place [ or one EU free trade place to another]
Leaving is a double edged sword. We would possibly have more freedom to subsidies businesses- TOries not big fans of that tbh- but companies based here wont have free trade to the EU. You could argue it either way. Short run will will almost certainly lose external investment – long run who knows.

this is a democracy and if Leave win it will be against the political establishment by the grass roots

Its a convenient narrative but Boris, IDS, Gove are not exactly non establishment figures.
Its a cross party and therefore cross establishment issue.
Neither campaign is particularly “grass roots” its all vested interest.

hora – Member

Remain = Cameron, Harriet Harman and the bloke who shagged our economy Mr Brown.

So true so real yet so funny.

With such a simple refection of the current affairs, even without those bias supportive data, Hora has managed to present a simple statement to crash Junky and his entourage of utopians.

Hora = 100 points, Junky and entourage = Le point zéro!

p/s: I am watching Eurovision but taking a break … bloody hell those background graphic effect is brilliant.

I hear your Eurovision and raise you. We’re watching the final of the Voice.

Slight hijack again ..

Edukator – Troll
I hear your Eurovision and raise you. We’re watching the final of the Voice.

Eurovision is 100 times better than the Voice! Fact! 😛

… Czech, Spain (very cheerful) or Armenia to win so far and I think the latter is a bit out of tune but her costume, or none of it, won … 😆

p/s: the new point system … arrghh my head hurts.

The Voice you get to watch dozens of times, Eurovison is only once a year

Cyprus scoring heavily on Cougar’s mates site. In the interests of non-political fairness Russia where excellent, have to be favourites assuming people will pay to vote for them

@chew takimg a break from Eurovision to check this thread shows a poor sense of priorities 🙂

Remain = Cameron, Harriet Harman and the bloke who shagged our economy Mr Brown.

Yeah & you have the Chuckle Brothers of Nigel & Boris!!! (Not to mention that fruit bat Galloway & the loon IDS…)

THATS hysterical……that’s comedy genius….

More Boris lies..

but not for one second did he imagine Great Britain would be part of it.

Did he tell you that himself?…………………………

I don’t know about you lot but I have noticed the behaviour of some of the German politicians are getting a bit weird as they becoming very too eager to please their Chancellor. Have you seen the political entourage surrounding her? A bit like their previous WWII Chancellor surrounded by his too eager “advisors” innit.

I think you’re paranoia is running away with you….

Full scale panic as the Electoral Commission Government will mail every household in the UK encouraging them to register to vote. So why not the same for a General Election then ? It’s well aware that among the typical politically engaged registered voter Leave is strong. This is a clear attempt to get disengaged and young voters to tick the “carry on as normal” box

Junky 5 of the 6 main political parties are officially Remain (inc SNP 😉 ) in spite of what senior figures believe, add in the international political organisations like OECD and IMF, the business and political interests of the US – you couldn’t get more Establishment if you tried.

@mrlebowski “More Boris lies” its hardly an about face of Corbyn-esque propertions though is it ?

Galloway is indeed a fruit bat but he has more principals than many on the Remain side both Tory and Labour

you couldn’t get more Establishment if you tried.

Amazingly, for once, you lack imagination On the plus side you are still wrong 😉

I see why you try to spin this narrative but its not true.