Leave more truthful more than Remain

Boris Johnson is trusted on Europe by twice as many voters as David Cameron, according to a poll.

ComRes asked 2,043 people who was “more likely to tell the truth about the EU” in a poll for The Independent and the Sunday Mirror.

Some 45% opted for Leave campaigner Mr Johnson, while 21% said David Cameron, who wants the UK to remain in the 28-nation bloc.

By a smaller margin, 39% to 24%, campaigners for Leave generally were considered “more likely to tell the truth” than campaigners for Remain.

Junky clearly we have a different idea of the establishment; Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrats, SNP, Greens, IMF, OECD, United States – all grassroots eh ? Remain outspending Leave by 5 to 1 ….

jambers, you put your tuppence worth in on the Scot ref. Sadly we don’t have the same input from those across the EU on this referendum. Would they wish to see a Brexit? I doubt it.

Not to point out the obvious but Believe doesn’t Equal True
Are all your answers from this one poll?

I’d say in a quick poll on STW the Leave lot get pulled up on a massive heap of un truths and down right lies. Throughout this thread the leave claims keep getting checked and found to be exaggerated or just false

The Remain leaflet fact checked
https://fullfact.org/europe/governments-eu-leaflet-introduction/
Not 100% but nothing stated as false
Can’t find their take on leave docs yet but I’ll keep looking

@ath – I gave my views in the thread but I said many times it was Scotland’s decison and I would of coirse fully respect the result. Also as I posted dissatisfaction with the EU in Europe is high, of the countries surveyed by a French paper Italy had close to 50% who wanted to exit. EU nations won’t want us to exit, yes they are frustrated at us being outside fhe euro which they see as a “unwarrented special case”. However we make a big net contribution and we buy so mich from them they don’t want to lose that

@mike STW hardly representative is it ? Regular posters have a clear bias and its not been on the winning side of a referendum or election in the 4 years I’ve been around.

Factcheck, I donated to their Referendum project – the reality is there are so many scenarios, assumptions and guestimates as to the impact its impossible to make any accurate predictions to the future.

EDIT:

On the 3m jobs linked to the EU factcheck notes

there is no a priori reason to suppose that many of these [jobs], if any, would be lost permanently if Britain were to leave the EU.”

On the exports from EU to UK (note Junky)

8% of EU exports come to the UK” is a reasonable measure, but on another reasonable measure, you can make it 17%.

On border control

We control our own borders… giving us the right to check everyone”. The right to check does not amount to the right to control entry, in the case of EU citizens.

and the BBC’s take on leave..

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36014941
Not quite as good, more exaggeration and claims that can’t be verified and the language just seems to cherry pick 😉

Factcheck, I donated to their Referendum project – the reality is there are so many scenarios, assumptions and guestimates as to the impact its impossible to make any accurate predictions to the future.

thats good, as what they did was check the facts being claimed on stuff that had happened and were honest about when things couldn’t be verified and predicted. Same as the BBC ones, plenty of “Benefit of the doubt” stuff allowed.
If we have to have a poll telling us that BoJo is more trusted taken as fact but fact checking the leaflets is something we should just ignore tells me enough about your leave/accuracy credentials #jambyfacts

jambalaya – Member

@chew takimg a break from Eurovision to check this thread shows a poor sense of priorities

Ya, I know. Got side tracked a bit. Should have concentrated on being a cheerleader cheering the winning singers. D’oh! I cheered the wrong ones again.

So who is sending this thread through to BoJo?

Boris Johnson has compared the European Union’s expansion to Adolf Hitler’s attempts to conquer Europe.
The Tory MP and Leave campaigner said both Napoleon and Hitler had failed to unite Europe under one authority – saying “the EU is an attempt to do this by different methods”.
Labour MP Yvette Cooper, from the Remain campaign, accused the ex-London Mayor of playing “nasty, nasty games”.
Meanwhile, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has backed Mr Johnson to be the next PM.
Mr Farage told the Mail on Sunday he was a “Boris fan” and said he was backing Mr Johnson to succeed David Cameron, if the prime minister resigns following the EU referendum.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208

I’ll ask again this morning, seeing as my question yesterday appears to have been missed:

How does a trade agreement negotiated with the EU help individual countries within the EU? The necessary imports & exports of each member state differ greatly, and I can’t see how a blanket trade agreement can look after the interests of all to an equal extent. Surely that’s not a good thing?

From my point of view…
Firstly the idea of getting the best of every deal for yourself doesn’t work out. You have to compromise.
The EU as a block has more interests in the game and buys/sells a much wider range of goods than 1 country. It can use the size and diversity to wield more power than an individual member could.
The overall deal may not look after each completely equally but the overall deal can be better than the one an individual may have negotiated.

It also moves your phone call up the line when it comes to booking your negotiation time.

Leave more truthful more than Remain

Boris Johnson is trusted on Europe by twice as many voters as David Cameron, according to a poll.

Belief / trust totally different to truth / accuracy.

Look to the major religious belief systems if you want proof! Many “believe”, to the extent that they commit heinous atrocities against those that don’t (or have a slightly different “belief”). There’s a distinct ABSENCE of FACT or TRUTH – but still people believe… 🙄

(And I’m not even talking about the core values such as existence of supreme deity [to far beyond proof / disproof]. Plenty enough that (still) believe man made in God’s image, Earth 4000ish years old etc. Facts tell otherwise, but don’t convince the poorly educated, brainwashed or ignorant.)

Maybe BJ is just a convincing liar?

jambalaya

Junky clearly we have a different idea of the establishment; Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrats, SNP, Greens, IMF, OECD, United States – all grassroots eh ? Remain outspending Leave by 5 to 1 ….

It’s difficult to argue you’re grass roots when you have Boris, IDS and Gove in there.

After the veracity with which you posted about the antisemitism row on labour, how do you feel about George Galloway being such a prominent figure in Grassroots Out?

On the history aspect BJ is right. There have been several attempt to unify Europe (as it was understood at the time), each one eventually failed. Coercion (sp?) was in involved in each one to a lesser or greater extent, much death was involved during the attempt at empire, unification or whatever. A good amount of death was the break up of the empires or unifications (depends on how you read history). So just having a pop at BJ for his Godwin is some what unfair, how can you draw on the history of European attempts at build a state with mentioning Hitler, Rome, Napoleon? Perhaps he should have mentioned the Austo-Hungarian Empire or the Ottoman, even Charlomagne? It don’t mean I agree but at least it’s a bit of interesting history and it’s supposed to help us not make the same mistakes (we do though but in a different way).

@Jamba – I’d stop posting if I was you, made my blood pressure go sky high having pointless discussion with the pro eu group on this forum. A friend of mine yesterday used the analogy that being in the eu is like being in an abusive marriage. You can get out or just bury your head in the sand and keep telling yourself it will get better.

Strange how Boris seems to suggest exactly the same thing I suggested yesterday regarding the Germanic expansionist march across Europe.

So, the flip side here is that Boris becomes the next Tory leader and he pulls us out post referendum 🙂

8% of EU exports come to the UK” is a reasonable measure, but on another reasonable measure, you can make it 17%.

Why have they not explained what that reasonable measure is?

Genuine question, as unlike some, I dont have opinions on facts i just accept the so I am interested in the rationale.

the reality is there are so many scenarios, assumptions and guestimates as to the impact its impossible to make any accurate predictions to the future.

No the guesstimate that it will initially be bad is TRUE Knowing how bad is “impossible”. This is just an attempt to make the two choice equivalently unequal. This is a little like saying if i ride my bike and dont fall of or if i fall off we dont know which one will injure me. Its true but the likelyhood of injury is in no way equal in both scenarios.

DO you really think all business has not predicted the outcomes as its just “unknown ” and all things are equally possible…behave and dont be s silly

How does a trade agreement negotiated with the EU help individual countries within the EU? The necessary imports & exports of each member state differ greatly, and I can’t see how a blanket trade agreement can look after the interests of all to an equal extent. Surely that’s not a good thing?

It helps them as they are members of the EU so whatever the EU negotiates they get. Not sure what you mean and i suspect you are trying to imply something there.
Say the EU negotiate a deal with the ASIA or China then all members are in this

No trade agreement whether on the international level, the national level, the regional level or frankly even the town lever will be able to make everything better for everyone.
For example if I improve a trail centre and make all the features better some riders wont be able to ride all the new GNAR features even if 99% of people are happier. Some wont like the change
Its not “good for 100% of people just good for 99%

In trade terms what it means is the GDP of the region, country and the EU all went up even if some areas took a “hit”.

I think this is just a universal truism and nothing to o with whther the EU or the UK negotiate our deal

Even here what is good for England may not be good for Scotland – daylight saving time comes to mind as one example.

flanagaj – Member
@Jamba – I’d stop posting if I was you, made my blood pressure go sky high having pointless discussion with the pro eu group on this forum.

The only reason it’s pointless is because he makes stuff up.

A friend of mine yesterday used the analogy that being in the eu is like being in an abusive marriage. You can get out or just bury your head in the sand and keep telling yourself it will get better.

In that analogy what exactly is the abuse we’re receiving?

Strange how Boris seems to suggest exactly the same thing I suggested yesterday regarding the Germanic expansionist march across Europe.

It doesn’t make it any more true. What’s this logical fallacy called again JY?

On the history aspect BJ is right. There have been several attempt to unify Europe (as it was understood at the time), each one eventually failed.

Only on the most trivial level – you may as well say that the Eurovision Song Contest is just the same as Nazism. Hitler’s superstate was one minus 6 million Jews. If you want to say that the EU is the same as that then you must think that those 6 million are irrelevant, and that make you … you know, a bit anti-semitic.

Just found an excellent piece regarding costs/benefits of the UK being within the EU, and explains how the UK’s relationship with the EU might look should we vote to leave.
It’s a download link, can’t work out how to get it to show in browser.

@mrlebowski “More Boris lies” its hardly an about face of Corbyn-esque propertions though is it ?

I quote from the Graun:

“In his Telegraph piece, Johnson rejected any idea that the free-trade deal could threaten the NHS by leaving it open to competition from US firms, a view now taken by Vote Leave.”

No not a U turn in the slightest…..! 😯 A lie is a lie, no matter how you spin it & it’s not the 1st porkie Boris has told about the EU…

Galloway is indeed a fruit bat but he has more principals than many on the Remain side both Tory and Labour

Oh, so a principled fruit bat is ok if he’s your fruit bat? Hitler had principles as did Saddam – did that make them ok?

What’s this logical fallacy called again JY?

There is no way on this earth, unless its being a lying conniving duplicitous bastard [ affairs and recent flip flop on TTIP- from Churchillian and the NHS is safe to the NHS is doomed], that I am citing Bojo as an authority on anything.

He is basically a serial bullshitter who cannot even agree with himself.

On the history aspect BJ is right. There have been several attempt to unify Europe

Well in that case Boris is just Like hitler as they have both stood for elected office

Boris rides a bike, I ride a bike so basically we are the same

Just because something has one thing in common it does not make them alike.

Secondly Hitler did not try to unify Europe he tried to conquer and make it a German Empire. I have never studied Napoleon in much detail but I suspect he was the conquering kind as well.

The premise is flawed anyway

Basically its racist goodwin sabre rattling to appeal to the lowest type of voter. Its also odd as they are already voting leave – not saying all leave are racists but i am saying all racists are leave- and I think it wont help sway the moderate voters to his cause it will just make him look like a racist loon – unless you love leave so much that facts dont matter.

He is basically a serial bullshitter who cannot even agree with himself.

just like all the lefties pointed and laughed at the blonde fool when he said that ping pong was invented on the dining tables of England, eh Junky?

Since you are throwing around the slur, perhaps you could tell us exactly which race Boris is being racist to?

Pro-EU leftists: “We should Remain because racism”
Pro-EU rightists: “We should Remain because the economy”

Junkyard – lazarus

Just because something has one thing in common it does not make them alike.

Eureka!!! 😆

Sky News discussion this morning, trade

Our trade in services is double with the US than it is with Europe – that is done without any trade deal
Of the UK’s economic activity only 13% is with Europe but the other 87% are bound by European regulations

The EU total trade deals with countires around the world represent 1/3rd of the trade deals the tiny nation of Iceland has negotiated. The EU is a “closed shop” designed to protect vested EU interests, it is not an externally focused or visionary political institution

An interesting comment on import duties, being a member of the EU “saves” us 3% in dutues that would otherwise be applied, the recent move in GBP has saved us more than double that – even without a trade deal we can an will do business with the EU and the rest of the world loke US and China where we have no trade deals

Hillary Benn and Nigel Lamont next up

Our trade in services is double with the US than it is with Europe

How much of that is US financial activity using London as a base for services within the EU? Or is that not how it works? I’m science, not finance.

So no comments on the above posts Jamby?
Bias, Hitler, the establishment and the fact checks? Or are you just pursuing the stuff you like the sound of?

Our trade in services is double with the US than it is with Europe – that is done without any trade deal

Thanks, the real question is whether a trade deal would
a) Increase this
b) Decrease it
What do you reckon sherlock?
I note you had to cherry pick services to make the point and its still very very weak.

even without a trade deal we can an will do business with the EU and the rest of the world loke US and China where we have no trade deals

Who has said otherwise ? you are meant to be explaining how it will be better post brexit not just stating facts no one disputed.

I’ve still not seen a strong case for Brexit, lots of misconceptions and what ifs that aren’t realistic plus a few points for that are also the case if we stay with the EU anyway.

The case for Brexit IMO is that the EU is a corrupt and anti-democratic organisation. The counter argument is that it is nevertheless better than the shower of shite we have in Westminster.

I am originally Dutch but came to the UK about a decade ago. I like the people and the landscape and in general feel much more at home here than I ever did living in the Netherlands. So I built a life here, worked, paid my taxes, found a British partner, with whom I’d like to start a family. My home is here. So rather fearful to suddenly be reduced to immigrant status.
I feel no attachment to my Dutch citizenship but would like to keep the option open to return for a period of time since my parents are getting on and my mom is disabled. With Dutch anti immigration sentiments rising to 1940’s levels I am loathe to give up my Dutch passport.

Just thought I’d ad this. It’s easy to forget, in the midst of all the percentages and trade agreements, that your choice affects actual people’s lives. Not just me, but also all the British living and working in the EU. What’s going to happen?

The case for Brexit IMO is that the EU is a corrupt and anti-democratic organisation. The counter argument is that it is nevertheless better than the shower of shite we have in Westminster.

I think there are many on the Remain side (and posting here) who see the EU as a controlling influence on British politics and think thats better than our own democratically elected government.

@Edrakat – thanks for posting and joining the discusion. I hope the gerenal tone of it doesn’t put you off. I am firmly Vote Leave and it is my opinion that there is zero chance you would be asked to leave the UK in the event of our exit from the EU. Zero. Sadly for you Holland does not allow you to keep your Dutch passport in the event of taking a Brirish one, I know this as an ex-colleague with joint Columbian and Dutch citizenship had to give up the Dutch when he took British cirizenship. It may be that in the event of a Brexit Holland would apply the joint nationality rule to allow you to keep your Dutch passport, I hope so. I have a French wife and will almost certainly live and work in Europe in the next 10 years, if I have to apply fir a visa like I did for Singapore and US then so be it. I hooe I’ll have the skills to be accepted but I acknowledge another countries right to decide who it wants

@mike have been busy this morning and off to scope out a mtb area another STW Paris resident posted on. Boris was a bit foolish to mention Hitler given recent Livingstone row, he’s well studied enough to have suggestd the Kaiser to go with Napoleon.

@MrLeb Even the least well read student of history would recognise Winston’s Churchill’s belief in Great Britain and its status as a world player and a force for good. There is not a snowballs chance in hell he intended Great Britian to be consumed into a European superstate. His words on Europe where with the intention to effectively eradicate France and Germany as independent nations, to join them economically and politically to stop them being at each others throats and dragging Europe and the world into conflict. This whilst we focused internationally as well as looking Westward to the US.

Corbyn is going on holiday over the period of the vote, leaving before the 23rd – Benn was asked about this on Sky. It does seem he realises that being around and campaigning for elections isn’t his strong point 8)

it is my opinion that there is zero chance you would be asked to leave the UK in the event of our exit from the EU. Zero…..but I acknowledge another countries right to decide who it wants

yes we are leaving the EU and banging on about immigration and free movement but honestly deep down we want you all to stay. 😕

The reality is we have no idea what your status will be and you are correct to be worried about this as the outcome, despites jambys unswerving faith, is uncertain.

I almost wish corbyn would resign just so that you would STFU about him.

Edraket – Member
So rather fearful to suddenly be reduced to immigrant status.

There is nothing to be fearful about being immigrant coz everyone will be treated the same.

With Dutch anti immigration sentiments rising to 1940’s levels I am loathe to give up my Dutch passport.

The reason is simple. Your lefties thinking party/people messed things up for everyone including other legitimate immigrants. The lefties take comfort in their “whiter than white view” but they have forgotten their own locals who do not feel that way.

My only way to describe the situation is like “a bit of salt in your food will taste good but if you have too much salt it will taste very salty”. There is no such thing as free movement of people in the world coz we are not designed that way.

Just thought I’d ad this. It’s easy to forget, in the midst of all the percentages and trade agreements, that your choice affects actual people’s lives. Not just me, but also all the British living and working in the EU. What’s going to happen?

It will affect everyone all over the world but we all have to face it the same way and adopt to the changes. The ones that you need to blame are the ones that ignore the feeling of the local people. Who spoiled it for all? Lefties political correctness. Put it this way at least you are citizen of a European country so even if things change you will be impacted least by comparison to say an Indonesian.

ninfan – Member

just like all the lefties pointed and laughed at the blonde fool when he said that ping pong was invented on the dining tables of England, eh Junky?

You realise the wiff waff story was proved wrong, don’t you? It wasn’t a “lefty” thing, it was “he is trying to be clever and talking pish” thing. I laughed because he came up with a daft line in a speech apparently just because to him ping pong sounds a bit chinese, didn’t bother to check the facts, got it wrong, then refused to accept he was wrong- it was all very Boris, whether he’s talking about ping pong or driving around in a bus with a misleading claim on the side about EU costs.

@DrJ

“Only on the most trivial level – you may as well say that the Eurovision Song Contest is just the same as Nazism. Hitler’s superstate was one minus 6 million Jews. If you want to say that the EU is the same as that then you must think that those 6 million are irrelevant, and that make you … you know, a bit anti-semitic.”

Your are a clever person but that is rubbish and you know it. Don’t let BJ cloud your opinion, why is there no historical context of the EU commissions federal plans and the various other attempts to have a European state. Why can’t a person use history to defend there argument? If not how can anyone use the long period of peace we have enjoyed in western Europe as a reason for maintaining and strengthening the EU?
I’d mention that the Romans did a fairly good job of it (in their view) given how long the empire went on for and how inclusive it was for those that supported it. Don’t talk about the romans though as you’ll be anti-loads of different peoples and religions (its a long list) who they exterminated.

It seems a bit daft IMO to compare a “European superstate” which is imposed by stormtroopers and gas chambers with one freely entered into by democracies even if the subjects then feel a bit fed up about bananas and vacuum cleaners. It’s just an entirely dishonest argument.

Brexit – The movie

Some very good arguments for voting out, without mentioning immigration once.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0[/video]

Well the first sentence in that film is bullshit.