How would you feel if the price from labour for accepting a national unity government was that Swinson goes as leader of the lib dems?

Corbyn doesnt have to go as leader of labour; he just has has to throw offical labout support behind a govt. Nat. Unity lead by someone else; that’s what she is sugesting: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/news/105931/jo-swinson-says-ken-clarke-or-harriet-harman-should-lead-unity

None of the current leaders should lead a Govt. Nat. Unity; otherwise it is skewed beyond its purpose. Surely that makes sense to everyone??

The squabbling just increases chances of no-deal. The only way to stop it is for someone (KC, HH as per article or KS (my choice!)) to pcik up the standard, stand forward and say ‘If there is a no confidence vote I will lead a national unity govt’. Then we’ll see if politicioans will put action behind words.

Someone is going to have to compromise. A caretaker PM who was a senior frontbencher in the past but now a backbencher retiring from the house in the forthcoming GE should be possible to find and should be the least threatening option for all.

Labour keeps Corbyn as Leader (if they want) and fight an election to make him PM. That election is called be an interim PM from the Labour Party who gets support from MPs from many different parties. Why is that so objectionable? Surely, “the man that no Tory wants as PM”, would be a positive message in that election campaign? No?

he just has has to throw offical labout support behind a govt. Nat. Unity lead by someone else

He also would have to resign and be replaced as official leader of the opposition prior to this being a possibility. Only the person who holds this role can approach the Queen and request the opportunity to form a government.

Labour keeps Corbyn as Leader (if they want) and fight an election to make him PM. That election is called be an interim PM from the Labour Party who gets support from MPs from many different parties.

Personally I wouldn’t have a problem with it. As I’ve always said, my focus is on the policies not the personalities. However, you have to see it in the context of Corbyn’s opponents using the brexit issue to depose him. It also goes against all convention, and there is no time to negotiate the agreements required between the different party factions.

There is also the problem of the fixed term parliament act. It requires a 2/3rds majority to call an election. It would require very few tories to kill an election once no deal is avoided, and we’d end up with a tory led govt for the next 3 years. You think labour will take that chance?

He also would have to resign and be replaced as official leader of the opposition prior to this being a possibility. Only the person who holds this role can approach the Queen and request the opportunity to form a government.

Then it’s not really a debate about no deal is it?

It’s moving into the real crux of the matter – the centrists don’t want Corbyn. This has been the background argument all along here.

So you’d prefer a no deal brexit to Corbyn as PM?

I don’t trust Corbyn on the E.U. one bit.

He’s done nothing but facilitate Brexit since the beginning & he’s been a lifelong opponent of the E.U.

Why should I trust him now? We all know politicians have a casual approach to promises made..

& the choice is not binary – no matter how many times you repeat the question…& you know this but you can’t see past your tribal allegiance.

The arguments for/against Corbyn were a valid discussion to have six months ago, but are increasingly becoming moot. The rapidly diminishing pool of outcomes now means that anyone who is genuinely interested in stopping no deal, or Brexit, may have to work with what they’ve got.

I have little faith that what we’ve got, in any of the parties, is going to be enough, unless the leaders of all the anti no-deal parties, and the anti no-deal factions in the Tories, for want of a better phrase, get their **** acts together.

There is also the problem of the fixed term parliament act. It requires a 2/3rds majority to call an election. It would require very few tories to kill an election once no deal is avoided, and we’d end up with a tory led govt for the next 3 years. You think labour will take that chance?

Not if a Government can’t be formed after 14 days – and a new Government can’t win a VOC. (after the orignal VONC). I think.

He’s done nothing but facilitate Brexit since the beginning

apart fropm voting for remain. campaigning for remain speaking to more people at more forums than anoy other politician. apart from making several bids in parliament to gain control and prevent no eeal ( foiled by other labour mps) apart from agreeing a second referendum with a remain option

But yes – apart from all that and all the rest he =has done its all Corbyns fault

Not if a Government can’t be formed after 14 days

But a govt would have been formed, otherwise there is no way of avoiding no deal. Once a govt is in place with whoever as leader, they can request an extension from the EU, then call an election under the FPA, then it would need 2/3rds majority in parliament to enact. If a tory moderate is PM, can you see the tory moderates voting for a new election and risking a Corbyn govt?

Once a govt is in place with whoever as leader, they can request an extension from the EU, then call an election under the FPA, then it would need 2/3rds majority in parliament to enact. If a tory moderate is PM, can you see the tory moderates voting for a new election and risking a Corbyn govt?

Under what circumstances would a Tory moderate be PM? Choice is either Boris continuing after an unsuccessful VONC, or JC forming an emergency coalition govt after a successful VONC sequence. At which point everyone would want an election, the tories because they are out of govt, and Labour et al because they promised it.

It requires a 2/3rds majority to call an election.

An interim government would require new legislation to call an election based on a simple majority, and to change our EU exit date. Or the courts might be used if the government seeks to interpret the fix term parliament act differently to the way most read it (as Corbyn’s letter suggests).

Under what circumstances would a Tory moderate be PM?

None IMO, but that’s what some anti-Corbyn moderates are suggesting with the likes of Ken Clarke or Dominic Grieve. I agree Corbyn is the only feasible option as a caretaker PM to avoid a no deal.

An interim government would require new legislation to call an election based on a simple majority,

I don’t see why. The two-thirds would be achievable because, well, who would oppose it? The alternative would be a continuation of the ‘interim’ government to the end of the fixed term.

An interim government would require new legislation to call an election based on a simple majority

What if parliament doesn’t vote that legislation through? You can only operate on the law as it is now, not what you hope it to be. As it is now, it would take very few tory MPs to kill a new election. Tory moderates would prefer to continue with an interim govt than allow either Corbyn or Boris to be PM following an election.

Corbyn on the E.U.:

1975 opposed membership of the EEC.
1993 opposed ratification of Maastricht.
2008 opposed the Lisbon Treaty.

2011 supported a proposal on a referendum on leaving the E.U.

2017 imposed a 3 line whip in favour of A50.
2019 imposed a 3 line whip against the WA (JC would prefer a Labour Brexit rather than a Tory one IMHO).

He may not be a full on (???) Brexiteer but he has no love for the E.U.

He may not be a full on (???) Brexiteer but he has no love for the E.U.

But do you want to avoid a no deal brexit?

What if parliament doesn’t vote that legislation through?

> sigh <

If an interim government can’t get legislation through the house in the Autumn (whoever is the PM) to call an election and change our date of exit from the EU… we still end up with an election… but No Deal can’t be stopped in time. That is why the VONC was required before the summer recess… so that if it ended up with no one having the confidence and support of the house, an election would be triggered and could be completed before our current exit date.

Most MPs have a chequered history with the EU and voting. Lot of flipping and flopping.

I think you’ve just got to take stock of where we are currently rather than trying to prove something or other to undermine Corbyn when the position is very clear today.

I personally don’t care if it’s a coalition of the reincarnated Charles Manson, Fred West and Harold Shipman as long as somebody gets stuck in and stops no deal.

But do you want to avoid a no deal brexit?

Yes, which is why I will & do vote LD. & not Labour when their leader has been a LIFELONG eurosceptic..

See? There’s another choice open to you ie not binary…..have a think about that for a second..

If an interim government can’t get legislation through the house in the Autumn

They only have to get a vote through to ask for (and presumably get) an extension to the brexit date to avoid a no deal. This will be the only business required of the caretaker govt. Once that’s done they will call an election under the FPA, not some imaginary replacement that there will not be time to enact. Under the FPA they will require a 2/3rds majority. A minority of MPs could easily derail that to ensure the interim govt remains in place, hence why there is very little trust on all sides.

Yes, which is why I will & do vote LD.

And how does that avoid no deal?

Kelvin – there is still plenty of time for that.

Edit – or so Hammond ( and others) say

“I’m very confident that the means exist for parliament to make its voice heard and to pass legislation that gives effect to the clear view of parliament,” he said.

“It’s very clear to me, and the Speaker of the House of Commons has also been very clear, that if a majority of MPs clearly want to go down a certain route, a means will be delivered to allow that to happen.”

The Speaker, John Bercow, told an event in Edinburgh on Wednesday night that MPs did have the ability to stop a no-deal Brexit and said he would “fight with every breath in my body” to stop the prime minister from proroguing parliament to force through no deal without the consent of MPs.

Hammond said that to prorogue parliament or to attempt to hold an election after 31 October to prevent MPs expressing their will on no deal “would provoke a constitutional crisis”.

TJ you are going to have to vote on party lines if you hate all the candidates personally.

Re unity governemnt – should be led by John Bercow obvs.

Not really molgrips – if its a foregone conclusion in my consituency then no need to vote. If its not a ivote for the party most likely to keep the tories out

Given that Tories were in a reasonably close 3rd place last time and I suspect a collapse in their vote in scotland then my vote is not going to make any difference from a berxit point of view

The lovely and principled Swinson. will do anything to stop brexit so long as she does not have to even meet with Corbyn. I think this rather shows her true colours. she would rather have brexit than do a deal with Corbyn

Rebel Conservative MPs have agreed to meet Jeremy Corbyn to discuss how to stop Boris Johnson pursuing a no-deal Brexit, without committing to backing him as a caretaker leader.

The Tory MPs Dominic Grieve, Caroline Spelman and Oliver Letwin, plus the former Conservative Nick Boles, said they would be willing to enter talks with the Labour leader in the weeks before parliament returns from recess.

Their tone was very different from that of Jo Swinson, the Lib Dem leader, who dismissed the idea of Corbyn leading a caretaker government as nonsense and said the Labour leader would not be able to build even a temporary consensus.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/15/lib-dems-and-anna-soubry-reject-corbyn-caretaker-government

she would rather have brexit than do a deal with Corbyn

Swinson the no deal enabler. She’ll do anything to avoid an election, including accepting brexit. it’s a pretty shocking betrayal of the remain cause.

That piece is a good summary TJ of lots of stuff going on. Worth reading it all.

The desire to boil this down to Swinson being the block on all that is sensible by some is very odd.

The desire to boil this down to Swinson being the block on all that is sensible by some is very odd.

But she is the block. Even the tories are willing to talk to him, whereas she won’t even do that. What Corbyn has suggested is eminently sensible. Stop no deal, hold an election and let the people decide. What is Swinson’s problem with that?

And how does that avoid no deal?

https://www.libdems.org.uk/brexit

You’re just getting boring now – don’t bother asking again as this is my answer. It’s unequivocal, unlike the fence-sitter extraordinaire..

I think the PC and ChangeName position of an interim government having a referendum before a general election is a good one as well.

Oh, I see nothing in that guardian article suggesting that Swinson won’t talk with Labour (including Corbyn) just that they are ruling out supporting him as PM. The LibDems are not ruling out talks… are they? Just ruling out talk about Corbyn being PM with LibDem support… something that LibDem members would probably block anyway (that party has to get these things agreed by their members) (not to mention Tory and ex-Labour MPs blocking Corbyn as PM).

Kelvin – everyone else will agree to discuss options without preconditions. Everyone apart from Swinson who makes it a precondition that Corbyn goes. Tory rebels, SNP, Plaid, Greens, all will go into discussions without preconditions. Swinson will not.

So anything to avoid brexit so long as she doesn’t even have to talk to Corbyn.

Blackford making sense – and remember labour and the SNP have bitter emnity between them

“I believe that when we get back to parliament in the first week of September that we can bring forward legislation, we can do it through a mechanism called a SO24 application to stop no deal. And that is what we should be focusing on,” he said.

“It’s not about, in this immediate case, who is prime minister, it is about stopping that act of economic self-harm that all of us would suffer from.”

Just ruling out talk about Corbyn being PM with LibDem support…

Leader of HM Opposition as the default candidate? Yeah, crazy idea. Swinson is the problem here, and deep-down the anti-corbynists know it.

Blackford making sense

Yes, he is.

Sorry… what was the point?

Leader of HM Opposition as the default candidate?

Depends on whether you are after a cross party agreement to get us through the autumn, and avoid No Deal, or just see Brexit as the means to get Corbyn as PM.

And as for the “anti-Corbyn” comment … getting MPs on side who might not be “pro-Corbyn” is essential.

the point is that everyone except swinson will go into discussions without precondions. Swinson makes preconditions that Corbyn goes

This quote from blackford shows her hypocrisy

“It’s not about, in this immediate case, who is prime minister, it is about stopping that act of economic self-harm that all of us would suffer from.”

Are there any ‘pro-Corbyn’ MP’s anywhere outside the labour front bench? The vast majority of his own MPs think he’s a liability and he’d make a terrible PM, so getting any Tory’s to back him is going to be harder than if it were any other Labour MP, with the possible exception of Dennis Skinner.

Pretty much any other politician would get support a lot more readily than Corbyn. Ironically its him and Boris who represent the 2 most marmite figures in parliament

getting MPs on side who might not be “pro-Corbyn” is essential.

Likewise it is essential to have those pro-Corbyn MPs onside who might be put off by voting in a right winger. Which will almost certainly be used to attack them later.
Lets face it the last time the Libdems enabled a government it didnt really go well for most.

Good to see this anything to stop brexit has lots of terms and conditions attached.

Depends on whether you are after a cross party agreement to get us through the autumn, and avoid No Deal, or just see Brexit as the means to get Corbyn as PM.

And as for the “anti-Corbyn” comment … getting MPs on side who might not be “pro-Corbyn” is essential.

The best way to get an agreement is Corbyn’s proposal. He has the numbers and the means if Swinson drops her pre-conditions. Anti-Corbyn MPs will need to decide if they’re prepared to pay the price of no-deal Brexit in order to prevent him from becoming temporary PM. If PC and SNP agree with Corbyn (as they may well do given their early indications) then the Lib Dems are going to be isolated – what then? Are they going to abstain in a VONC?