There is no realistic plan that can win in a vote, if the public are also offered a fantasy. Hence all that they (we) will be offered is a choice of fantasies.

Or will the Irish be given special allowance?

Still covered under the common travel area?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

In all seriousness the major services will keep running money from the magic money tree will be thrown at the problems and a half arsed implementation of “standards” will be applied

shortly followed by austerity max…

1) a plan for an achievable deal

2) a public vote on that plan

And again, what if the public don’t vote for the achievable deal (assuming you have a guarantee that it will be agreed and not just something that just looks achievable).  Remember how the public are not very good at voting for the right thing….

We choose the deal, or we give up on Brexit.

At some point, that decision needs to be made, and it looks like it’ll have to be made by “US”…

…a wise Labour Party would now say…

“Here is a proposal for a workable deal. If you want a Brexit like this, vote for us… or if you now think Brexit should be abandoned, also vote for us. The Tories are the party of no deal Brexit, we are not. We are the party of anything but no deal Brexit.”

A shed load of people will still go for no deal because they don’t understand the entire consequences, does anyone?.

They’ve been sold the idea that anything EU is bad, therefore everything not EU is good. Plus they are largely deluded and believe we have the upper hand because we’re British and British is best. No deal means the EU will cave to our superiority and give us what we want.

Labour can offer two ways out:

– an achievable Brexit plan

– a public vote

Those who want maximum disruption, with no plan for the future, can vote for someone else.

Let those people vote Tory or UKIP.

I think most of them will anyway.

Let those people vote Tory or UKIP.

I think most of them will anyway

Yes, the same that are voting Tory or UKIP now.  You are rating the average voter a lot more highly than I am.

You know most of the voters won’t have a clue what you are on about and just want to know when the immigrants are going don’t you?

Great Ben Jennings cartoon in today’s Guardian

You know most of the voters won’t have a clue what you are on about and just want to know when the immigrants are going don’t you?

Clearly I do think more highly of other voters than you do.

So, do you want a general election? Do you want another vote specifically about Brexit? Or do you want some remix of the current shower to sleepwalk us into a mess that’ll take the rest of our working lives to clean up properly?

A shed load of people will still go for no deal because they don’t understand the entire consequences, does anyone?.

A lot of people will vote for no deal because

it is at least a tangible option where there are some established rules (wto)

Remainers who want to punish leavers (or vice versa)

Or for all the noise and bullshit inactivity to go away (from the news). I think people would like to be living in caves rather than watch one more tv show full of hot air.

That’s the irony… you can’t vote to “tear it all up” and then expect it to be quietly over by tea time.

The brexiteer mentality is laid bare when barnier points out the bleeding obvious fact that the white paper isn’t a workable proposal and Rees mogg likens him to an aggressive mafia boss.  Well let’s hope nanny finds a horses head next to Teddy at bedtime tonight Jacob.

it is at least a tangible option where there are some established rules (wto)

It still doesn’t seem to have sunk in yet that the WTO is a private members club, of which the UK is only currently a member through being in the EU. The US, Brazil and Australia have stated that they would block UK membership unless they get trade deals that benefit them. There is no automatic enrolment to trading under WTO and some countries have seen weakness and decided to go in for the kill. When brexiteers claim we can/will trade under WTO rules post brexit they are lying (who’d have funked it), it is another agreement that has to be reached quickly but current member will be able to dictate terms, so the UK will be royally rogered.

https://www.ft.com/content/92bb5636-a95b-11e7-ab55-27219df83c97

https://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothing-simple-about-uk-regaining-wto-status-post-brexit

Anna Soubry on the last leg at 10.

That could be interesting

Currently sat in Zell Am See hospital waiting for my wife to come around from surgery after she broke her arm this morning.

Marvellous things these EHIC cards.

Nicer even than a blue passport though?

Hope your better half is ok Col

Can we expect a hike in European holiday insurance?

They even spoke perfect English to us instead of all that foreign they speak over here, bloody EU

Imagine an alternate reality where the Germans kick us out of the eu.

They then fine us 40 billion quid and demand that all car and aerospace manufacturing is moved to mainland Europe.

Then all brits are denied rights to travel in the eu and have to queue up to get in .

Then they impose extra taxes on stuff we want to buy from the eu.

Do you think that the hate press would be happy with that? Would they feel free or **** over?

Those articles re the WTO are interesting… not only do we lose the power of the EU block but we get to negotiate a second time against powerful farming lobbyists…

Looks like we will be heading to a proper free market.

Farmers (who voted resoundingly for Brexit) won’t be chuffed to find that their expectation that they’ll receive their subsidies direct from HMG are going to be seriously disappointed that they’ll be pawns in a further negotiation with WTO that’ll probably leave them poorer….Brexit the ‘gift’ that keeps giving!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/21/jacob-rees-mogg-says-uk-is-heading-for-no-deal-brexit

Can we expect a hike in European holiday insurance?

Read the T&Cs, many insurance policies require an EHIC. So to answer your question, yes.

Rees Mogg on Channel 4 News it could be 50 years before we see the benefits of Brexit.

FFS

My 103 birthday will be a belter.

Farmers (who voted resoundingly for Brexit)

I’m enjoying the schadenfreude. The UKIP veg grower round this way is in for a nasty shock and much lower turnover.

Well theres a first me agreeing with Mogg, i think all is more or less lost and we will end up in a very bad place.

Our ecomomy with its full employment is smoke and mirrors and the productivity statistics confirm this.

The tax rises and services cuts that will be required to keep the shit show running will be very unpleasent.

The Tory party will end up out power and Labour will not be able to cope with the post brexit economy without borrowing lots of money.

The grown ups know this hence Moggs comments, but truth is they are well enough financially protected to ride the storm.

The likes of Boris, Mogg  Farage, Davis etc all know the US obsession with “posh” England gets them all business opportunities including books, tours, investments, non execs etc.

This was WW2 in UK political terms, WW1 was Thatcher.

This was a fight for who becomes our “parents” and the EU has lost us and we are now Trumps Bitch.

Rees Mogg on Channel 4 News it could be 50 years before we see the benefits of Brexit.

I sure he will see the benefits of it sooner than that but of course he won’t mention what he is getting out of it personally.

A nice sound bite vid of him saying that wouldn’t be a bad thing to be doing the rounds

Rees Mogg is a little twerp who got his first stiffee when matron rubbed his tummy at boarding school. He hasn’t the first concept of ordinary folk and actually uses this as a selling point for the tossers who lap up celebrity appearances on HIGNFY at face value.

The average **** in the street who thinks the circus of PMQs is how things get decided just forms their stupid opinion on soundbites. For heaven’s sake, even that totally useless and unwarranted ‘knight’ Soames is able to sound ministerial amongst the current wunch of bankers. Yes, he of wardrobe and key fame. Shame on us. If the EU choose to **** us over (as we deserve), any sane person can only say “Well, there you go”.

The whole thing is a national disgrace and I will never, ever vote Tory again as I used to prior to 2016. And yes, I admit I was wrong my whole voting life up until that point.

Here is a thought. If by some miracle we were to remain in the EU, the new Japan trade deal has, in one fowl swoop, negated the need for Nissan, Honda and Toyota to actually produce their cars in the UK. OK it cuts down on transport costs to Europe but there will surely be a political will to bring those jobs back home since there will be no tariffs and quotas any more.

Nissan is French owned.

Good article in the Guardian – that Ninfan might agree with for once

My own work confirms this. The 2016 exit poll showed that Trump won because he decisively beat Clinton among the 18% of Americans who did not like either candidate. These voters tended to be suburban, college-educated, Republican-leaning men. These “reluctant Trump voters” were undecided until the very end of the race, but ultimately decided that the devil whose policies they liked was better than the devil whose policies they didn’t.
One can be outraged at how Trump is enforcing immigration laws without thinking eliminating enforcement is a good idea
Advertisement

Democrats have done nothing since Trump’s election to reduce these feelings. On issue after issue the Democratic party has moved to the left, catering to a progressive base outraged at Trump’s election and seething at how the Democratic establishment foisted a fatally flawed candidate upon them. The latest progressive cause célèbre is for eliminating America’s border enforcement agency, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (Ice). One can be outraged at how Trump is enforcing America’s immigration laws without thinking that eliminating all border enforcement is a good idea. An idea like this keeps Republicans united in their support for Trump as it clearly shows how unacceptable the alternative is.

————————————————————————————————————-

This has, predictably, hardened the attitudes of many Trump supporters. As minor issues are blown up into major catastrophes, it’s not surprising that potentially major issues like Trump’s embarrassing and obsequious behavior towards Russian president Vladimir Putin in Helsinki get overlooked. It’s “boy who cried wolf” syndrome writ large; when the media cries “wolf” at every passing shadow, many Trump backers simply don’t believe them when they say that a wolf might actually be coming.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/23/liberals-donald-trump-support

This is also, exactly why I think Corbyn will lose the next general election.

For those of us that are hard of thinking, how does that link to leaving the EU? Is it that some people will vote for anyone/thing that promises to hit the hate plank of people they identify as “others”, and won’t vote for someone/thing that they feel might not do so?

Wrong thread, whoooooo! You seem a bit hurt though, that the Blairites may have a point.

Hopefully the Blairites will have their own party by next G.E

Hopefully the Blairites will have their own party by next G.E

Don’t think the divided Tory party would use that name for the non ERG group, no matter how close to his polciies they are….

Hurt? Blarites? What the actual __ are you all on about? Weird. Perhaps there’s another thread I need to read.

Hurt? Blarites? What the actual __ are you all on about? Weird. Perhaps there’s another thread I need to read.

I think that the general point, which is loosely tied to this thread, is that the polarised left are making themselves unelectable. Whether it’s Corbyn, selling out the young and centrist remain voters, loud social justice types putting off moderate Tories who may otherwise vote for a Blairite government, or Democrats who’s increasing swing to the left in response to Trump is only serving to harden the attitudes of supporters who may have ditched Trump.

If you read that article carefully, it is only one base of Trump supporters that are attracted by his racism – the rest aren’t.

And as you’re response shows, the left seems to have an innate ability to utterly ignore that fact. So yes, that article is indirectly linked to this thread and the way UK politics is in itself going.

I don’t believe for a second that the current labour polling numbers are a true indication of what they would achieve in a general election. And if they do win because hard brexiteers vote for UKIP, the following election will be a wipeout for Labour and they won’t get in for another two decades after taking on the poisoned chalice of a post-Brexit government and solidifying a centrist-tory response.

“The Left” over this side of the Atlantic make use of the anti-migrant feeling as much as anyone. The current Labour leadership’s only real red line as regards a new relationship with the EU is that “FOM must end”.

“loud social justice types”… you’ll need the define which issues you think are a turn off for “moderate” voters, and why. I might agree with you, but I’d need details.

Nice that, after all I’ve said about Corbyn and his cabal, in this thread, that my “response” to a pretty random post can be seen as proving  something about “the left”.