to try and get her deal

Do you mean a trade deal? The White Paper was already full of holes and impossible implementations, and the amendments have made it so that it contradicts itself. There has to be a process of turning it into something concrete, and at that point the Tory party reject it (never mind the opinion of parliament, or “the people”).

If you mean the withdrawal agreement, looks like all work on that is close to being scraped as DUP, ERG and Kate “the saviour of the union” Hoey have pushed the PM into rolling back all that has already been agreed on a backstop for Ireland and, payments for commitments previously made.

2/ @yvettecoopermp tries repeatedly to get a clear answer to this simple question, 'Will we or won't we expect the EU to collect our tariffs?' pic.twitter.com/G8XGVDJ3OW

— Martin Cooper (@mpc_1968) July 18, 2018

Anyone heard anything from the labour party? While this shitshow unravels?

No?

Thought not.

Not only do we not have a government. The opposition appears to have gone AWOL as well.

As this impending disaster materialises, Corbyn and his spineless, useless acolytes should be held equally as accountable as May and her shower of ****-wits

Do you mean a trade deal? The White Paper was already full of holes and impossible implementations, and the amendments have made it so that it contradicts itself. There has to be a process of turning it into something concrete, and at that point the Tory party reject it (never mind the opinion of parliament, or “the people”).

Yep and I agree the white papers a total farce 🙂

As this impending disaster materialises, Corbyn and his spineless, useless acolyte

Yes we get it. Corbyn is to blame for everything.

The “moderates” are the way ahead despite those idiots being the ones who helped UKIP and co gain ground when they dived rightwards after the tories to chase the “centre” ground.

Anyone heard anything from the labour party?

What are you expecting to hear, what would you do as leader of the opposition with an electorate who are split?

Corbyn is doing well by letting them get on with it.  If Labour were running it they would have the same impossible job.  Go for the sensible option and then give up your power as everyone votes for the other party for not doing what they wanted (leavers and remainers)

I’d like to point out a metaphor fail. It isn’t a cliff edge brexit we are heading for but a mudflat brexit. The tide has been coming in for two years and next March will be the first time a lot of people realise that we are stranded. Then we are in for the fighting as the people who got us into the mess try to absolve themselves. After a protracted period of thrashing around, ingesting mud and brackish water, gasping and vomiting, we will just realise at the very end what we have done to ourselves.

I’m on hols at the moment. We are in the Algarve, hardly a hotbed of intellectual excellence, granted, but I think the experience of the flight out and the clientele is relevant. Presumably these people all hold down jobs.

Example one. A 20-30 year old trying to work out the saving of 20% on a £50 watch. “Is it five”?

Example two. Lad and his girlfriend. He is half cut by the end of the flight. They were last on the bus with us on the transfer. He was totally shitfaced within 45 minutes as he had presumably polished off a load of vodka on the bus. Nice start to a holiday.

Example three. Mr Compo. Claims a stewardess hit his knee with a trolley. Spends the rest of the flight wincing every time s stewardess comes near. Insisting on ice packs and getting a form to fill in. I’ve no doubt he has done this before and is just after 10% off his next holiday. His missus was sat across the aisle and didn’t mutter a word.

We’ve also be warned to avoid one street in the town in the evening with the kids because of ‘drunk people’. Almost certainly brits.

This is what we are ‘going out to market’ with. We are screwed.

Europeans I have spoken to just smile at our stupidity and a few have bemoaned an education system that leaves so many people so utterly unaware of the world around them.

Sat at a nice wine bar in girona last night fuming listening to a loud conversation behind me.  Spanish bloke in good English discussing brexit with loud brits. She espoused how much she loves girona but voted out of Europe Spanish bloke asked lots of questions because he obviously couldn’t understand why. Her go to answer was “I don’t care” no discussion, no thought, no politely embarrassed murmur just “I don’t care”.

We are well and truly ****. I’ll add she seemed an intelligent young woman and fairly well off. The sort of person that would be all for striding forward but, well, she just doesn’t care.

So we will hear the first official verdict from the EU today on the Chequers proposal.

Sat at a nice wine bar in girona last night fuming listening to a loud conversation behind me.  Spanish bloke in good English discussing brexit with loud brits. She espoused how much she loves girona but voted out of Europe Spanish bloke asked lots of questions because he obviously couldn’t understand why. Her go to answer was “I don’t care” no discussion, no thought, no politely embarrassed murmur just “I don’t care”.

We are well and truly ****. I’ll add she seemed an intelligent young woman and fairly well off. The sort of person that would be all for striding forward but, well, she just doesn’t care.

Embarrassing, plain and simple. I’ll bet the Spanish guy was just asking if she had a good reason. But, hey, he’s a dastardly foreigner (In her mind) trying to make her look stupid. Something it sounds like she needs no help with. Despair has been my prevalent emotion over the last two years.

‘Nul points’

It’s ok we’ve sent frothing Raab over there.

Massive bellend that he is & still selling the unicorns, it’s gotta be better than permanently befuddled Davis

I know of one or two colleagues who voted to leave.

One of them actually told me “Yes I voted leave but I’m not all that bothered as I’m going to retire in Spain in a few years”

WTAF!

This is a well paid professional working for a large multinational.  It just beggars belief how shallow or non-existent the thinking has been.

What are you expecting to hear

That Labour supports staying in the Single Market and Customs Union… i.e. that they have a plan that can be implemented, where the government do not. Additionally, that they will call for a referendum for “US” to choose between that deal and membership. I think that referendum could be won by the “outer ring” proposal, and we’d still leave. The alternative is, however we Leave, it will be sold as being “not the Brexit people voted for”… so it has to go back to the people. Most Labour supporters would support this clear two step approach… and so would many others, when it is compared to what the Tory/ERG/DUP/Hoey types are pushing on us.

 Tory/ERG/DUP/Hoey types are pushing on us.

This is how it will happen.

There will be no deal.

In the years between leaving the EU and the next GE the rush will be on to completely tie us to the USA in attempt to set our future path in stone regardless of who wins the next GE.

You only need to look back a few years to see what the likes of David Davis, Liam fox were doing and who with, they were attending conferences in the US where the only talking point was how they could wrench the UK away from the EU and tie it to the US.

The type of conservatism you are seeing from Johnson, and Mogg etc, is not the British version, its the US version. The use of language, Johnson in his resignation letter calling us a Colony, or Davis recently blaming the French, or the Irish should shut their gobs over the border is all very deliberate. Some would say this is the leavers trying to absolve themselves of them blame for the coming sh*t storm, but it was always part of their plan.

Remember when people believed when the leavers said leaving the EU didn’t mean leaving the SM or CU? I’m sure many people voted to leave on this premise, well now we see it wasn’t true. All part of the plan.

Even this week when the Tories once again broke parliamentary conventions to achieve their goal of getting the country over the brexit line with no deal. The country has shifted to the right by a very long way, its not fascism as many are calling it, but we are on our way, and all it takes it 40% of the electorate to continue voting this way to achieve everything we are witnessing here.

And what of this glorious brexit?

Millions of jobs lost? Irrelevant.

Lower standards of living? Irrelevant.

NHS sucked up by US private health care companies? Excellent.

The intention was always to destroy it and rebuild it in their image. With quite a bit of disaster capitalism along the way.

Oh, I suppose I had better mention Corbyn and militan…I mean momentum, you ain’t got a chance.

Have you heard May’s speech?

Backstop is now dead.

Back to square one.

Nothing to show for last 2 years.

That Labour supports staying in the Single Market and Customs Union… i.e. that they have a plan that can be implemented, where the government do not.

Why would they support that though?  When they are meant to be elected representatives of people who voted leave?

I’m playing devil’s advocate here but tbh it’s a fair question isn’t it?

Because if you oppose people who do not have a workable plan, then you need to have a workable plan, or you are just expelling hot air, not showing you can do a better job.

SM&CU in an EEA+ manner means we are no longer members of the EU and allows future campaigns/politicians to push for cutting/replacing trade ties, if they wish. People have not voted yet to cut those trading ties, only the political ties. Any working replacement trading arrangement has yet to be spelt out, or agreed, within any party, or supported by any vote, by anyone.

Brexit is dead, just no-one realises yet. I’m still not sure how it’s going to end, but I’m sure it will end. Politics can’t trump reality.

Because if you oppose people who do not have a workable plan, then you need to have a workable plan, or you are just expelling hot air

No, you need to convince the public you have a workable plan.  That’s not the same as having one…  Hot air isn’t a problem in electoral terms as long as it’s hot air people like.

And what happens to the UK when your bluff is called?

Just bullshit some more, isn’t that standard practice?

I’m hoping that the end of that particular line is being reached though.  But the problem is that leavers are always going to blame the EU if it goes tits up, and remainers are going to blame the government.  That’s confirmation bias, and it’s human nature.

Brexit is dead, just no-one realises yet.

Reading the papers today, some of them seem convinced that it’s not dead and that various EU countries are preparing for the UK to simply crash out with no deal.

Genuinely though – what happens? There’s a realistaion that what is happening is criminal negligence of the highest order and they back down or they drive the bus off the edge and screw the consequences?

The “moderates” are the way ahead despite those idiots being the ones who helped UKIP and co gain ground when they dived rightwards after the tories to chase the “centre” ground.

No, that was May legitimizing the hatred of immigrants during her time in the Home Office. Most peoples lives, including the majority of the working classes – got better under the Blairites.

Her go to answer was “I don’t care” no discussion, no thought, no politely embarrassed murmur just “I don’t care”.
We are well and truly ****. I’ll add she seemed an intelligent young woman and fairly well off. The sort of person that would be all for striding forward but, well, she just doesn’t care.

That’s the answer I get from even close friends who are brexiteers. You mention the food/dairy issue – the answer is “oh but I support more jobs being created for UK farmers”, so the question then becomes “So are you happy for high tech jobs that bring money into the country being replaced by fruit picking jobs, how is regressing as economic power a positive? Do you see Japan attempting to build a cotton picking industry?”. The answer is then somewhere along the lines of “Shut up, I don’t care, this isn’t a debate, you’re talking down at me. I’ve heard all the arguments, I’m a doer not a moaner”.

I’d add that these people, are people who think that they are intelligent, they may even be quite specialized in a tight technical field – but they tend to base their opinions on one or two opinion column writers that they choose to read. They rarely read outside of their technical field and when they do, it’s the opinion of a limited amount of writers – as they either do not care or do not have the time to read around a lot of subjects and develop a more holistic view of the world around them. They tend hold people like Jacob Rees Mogg in veneration, as the ideal image of an “intelligent person”, however as the Guardian has stated, Mogg is the stupid persons idea of a clever person.

Unfortunately, the age of the polymath is dead.

That Labour supports staying in the Single Market and Customs Union… i.e. that they have a plan that can be implemented, where the government do not.

What is the point of a plan when you are not the people putting the plan in place and what if that plan would require us to keep freedom of movement and what if the Labour voters that voted Leave didn’t like that plan ?  But mainly, how is the Labour plan going to be implemented ?

kelvin
Subscriber

Have you heard May’s speech?

Backstop is now dead.

Back to square one.

Nothing to show for last 2 years.

Has anyone got the actual quote. It sounds like she said something rather interesting – that the backstop should apply to the whole U.K.

I wonder what that means.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/theresa-mays-keynote-address-at-belfasts-waterfront-hall-full-speech-37138123.html

Barnier now:

Thanks for the paper, but how’s any of this going to work?

He doesn’t believe in unicorns then?

But mainly, how is the Labour plan going to be implemented ?

By being ready for, and forcing, a general election. This whole “not in power, don’t need a plan” doesn’t seem to apply to the NHS, taxation, pensions… etc… just to international trade and cooperation/coordination. You want votes? You want to be in power? You need policies that are better than the alternatives offered. You need to spell out how you will implement those policies.

This government is only winning votes in parliament with the support of DUP and Labour MPs… it is balanced on a knife edge… but will only falll if put under pressure by an opposition that has set out, and can win support for, a way out of our current stalemate.

How does not having a hard border fulfill the wishes of the WTO?

Do we need to stop talks with Brussels and try and get a better deal from Geneva?

Why certain politicians are so keen to bow down before an unelected foreign beauracracy I don’t know.

Traitors.

I hope (but doubt) labour are silent because they have a bloody good plan that they don’t want stealing or rubbishing before the next general election.

There won’t be general election in time, unless they make a move… of course, many of us suspect that is the plan… to not make a move… to ensure any general election is too late… and then to assume power only after the damage is done.

I think this shares a lot in common with BoJo’s plan.

  Politics can’t trump reality.

Who’s reality?

The people clamouring for no deal brexit view it as very real, they have an end game and its irrelevant who or what gets trampled on to achieve it.

Real reality. We can’t do the borders, no time no plan no money, we can’t survive without imported food, not for more than a few days. That’s only the first bit. We can’t fly planes either, well not legally. Nor nuclear power or radiation in medicine. All these things are immediate civilisation-threatening problems. There are others.

Kelvin – thanks for that link. I think I need a pint of what she’s having.

if I wrote something that convoluted, imprecise and indefinite at work they’d fire me.

Vacuous nonsense.

On the other hand, it had at least one sound bite for everyone.

@kelvin, disaster recovery is probably easier than disaster prevention right now.

I say easier from a standpoint that no one would get elected by just saying “let’s just pretend all this Brexit stuff never happened and cary on as we were” even though they probably should.

So the Belfast agreement allows the Irish to choose to be Irish or British. Essentially a freedom of movement (of nationality)

How will that work going forward for someone in Derry who wants to be Irish any go live there, which they can do now under the EU and Belfast Agreement, but they’re then told they can’t because no FoM? Or will the Irish be given special allowance?

Basically the whole thing, as may and the Tories want it, can’t happen.

We can leave the EU at the expense of the Belfast agreement. There is no fudged solution at all.

By being ready for, and forcing, a general election.

And again, what if the voters don’t like the Labour plan or don’t care about it and the tories win again with help from media.  What sort of plan would bring people around to a majority agreement?

That’s why they need to offer:

1) a plan for an achievable deal

2) a public vote on that plan

the time for fantasy politics is over

The Tories

1) don’t have a plan

2) have ruled out a public vote

pair those two together, and they are ripe for being brought down and replaced