Can anyone convince me I haven’t just wasted £500 on this piece of crap?

Had an Elite Qubo Digital B+ before and always enjoyed using it around zwift. It was very smooth and had a great feel. Well, until it died earlier this week. Que an upgrade to a wheel off trainer. Plenty of reviews read etc and ended up getting the Direto due to its price in Halfords.

I have calibrated correctly and it is within 2 of the sticker number.

When I ride on Zwift 250w feels like 350 did on my old trainer. The difference from 0% to 1% gradient is very obvious. By that I mean the effort required to maintain speed is significant and it fells more like 4 or 5 percent would in the real world.
My ftp with my old trainer was 260. I honestly don’t think I could hold 200 for twenty minutes on this. It just seems to be way out.
I get that the Qubo is low end but I don’t believe it would that far out.

Am I doing something wrong? Is the trainer faulty? I am seriously thinking of returning it tomorrow it is that bad.

I have one and love it.

There is a fair chance your old one was that far out. It is quite normal to find a significant power drop when going from a lower end wheel on to decent direct drive turbo.

What do you have the trainer difficulty setting at? Do you know anyone with the same or other well regarded direct drive turbo you could try as a comparison? (Or do you have a cycle Republic near, they have a Direto zwift demo rig in some stores).

One other thing you could try is borrowing power meter pedals and dual record to see how close the power values are.

Many cheaper turbos vastly inflate power figures, 25% is easily conceivable.

My Direto power numbers usually closely match my 4iiii crank pm numbers.

where do you live ?
you might find somebody local to lend you some pedals that do power, just to see

Zwift trainer difficulty is set to 100%. I want a 8% hill to feel like an 8% hill.

Another thing. And this is not necessarily a fault. When I got a slope the resistance change feels too quick. In the real world momentum will help you up the first few meters and my old trainer had this feel. The new one increases almost instantly and there is no benefit from carrying any speed into a hill. It ruins the flow of a ride.

I know someone at work that has vector pedals… I could ask.

You might find “power smoothing” setting in the Elite my training app will improve the gradient transition feel.

By default it’s 2 iirc, try 3/4/5.

You might find “power smoothing” setting in the Elite my training app will improve the gradient transition feel

Does it? My understanding was that this is a power average setting. As in, if it’s set at 5 it displays a power reading average for the last five pedal strokes, if that makes sense. A bit like the 3 sec setting on Zwift. It stops you seeing fast fluctuations in power as a displayed value rather than having any effect on the resistance itself.

Surprised you find the transition too quick. If anything it’s a touch slow. I find I get 2-4s to power up after ‘hitting’ the slope before the full effect kicks in.

I think there is a reason the default difficulty is set at 50% in the same way the game uses half draft rather than the double ‘full’ draft.

Quick bump for the weekday crowd.

I had another session at the weekend, getting used to the different feel, slightly. But still feel as though 300watts shouldn’t be that hard. It is unsustainable for more than a few minutes. I have read elsewhwere (via google) that other owners have found theirs to read 50-60 watts too low.

Mine also pretty much matches my 4iiii with zero offset set on the 4iiii

Did you download the phone app and use that to calibrate it?      Otherwise mine is acting the same way as everyone else is posting here.

I would say that I have found Smart Trainer/Zwift watts harder than outdoor watts – and I had a Tacx before so its not unique to the Direto.

Did you download the phone app and use that to calibrate it?

Yep, it is 2 points off the sticker so well within limits. Although from what I can make out, calibration doesn’t actually do anything. It just confirms that the trainer is still working to the tested levels of the factory. To actually change anything you have to adjust belt tension.

But still feel as though 300watts shouldn’t be that hard.

Extrapolating a but and assuming you’re not massively above average speed wise, 300W should really hurt after a few minutes unless youre either lightweight and/or fast!

I want a 8% hill to feel like an 8% hill.

I rode mine up a virtual Ditchling Beacon that I’ve downloaded on Friday and it felt a lot like riding it for real. My time was 4 seconds quicker than my best time up there on the road when I’ve put in a similar effort.

If mine were out by the amount you feel yours is, 100 watts, I’d have a watts per kg of over 5. I definitely don’t!

My (secondhand) Direto works really well with Sufferfest App.  I can’t match the numbers from a Stages PM when used on outside rides but it’s not massively different (and I expect better numbers outside)

there isn’t a concept of momentum on Sufferfest, I have found that if I change cadence when a power interval changes it can be slow to catch up (5 seconds), but keeping cadence constant drops the time down to 1-2 seconds.

even with an ftp of 260, 300W for 5 minutes is going to hurt – especially if you’re a Diesel engine TT specialist.

i wouldn’t calibrate it against any other power meter. Accept the number it tells you and set your training plan to improve that number.
what I would look at is how you are connecting from your device to the direto – I’ve heard better reports from Bluetooth users than ANT+ but can’t confirm this myself.

there isn’t a concept of momentum on Sufferfest,

Strangely I was playing about last night and there kinda is….

Wheel on dumb trainer, spin it up with the resistance unit detached and the watts go up to 700 or so, let it spin down and it all looks normal over a minute or so. Repeat that but slam the back brake on and the watts drop to zero but the displayed speed continues to drop at a slow rate. I wonder if its using a virtual speed to help the smarter trainers adjust.

Extrapolating a but and assuming you’re not massively above average speed wise, 300W should really hurt after a few minutes unless youre either lightweight and/or fast!

even with an ftp of 260, 300W for 5 minutes is going to hurt – especially if you’re a Diesel engine TT specialist.

OK, maybe I am rounding up a little too much here to make a point. On my old trainer my ftp was around 260. I could hold 260 for 30 minutes up alp zwift. The same output on the new trainer feels impossibly hard, I don’t think I could hold onto it for 10 minutes let alone 30.

Anyway, I am going to redo an ftp test tonight and see where it puts me compared to my old trainer.

@tinas

https://support.thesufferfest.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000519475-Understanding-Speed-And-Distance-Calculations

You’re right,virtual speed is used. However it’s not like Zwift though where you could use momentum whilst racing someone as there isn’t the concept of racing someone – it’s just you raging against the machine at various power levels

If you FTP is 260W then 300W should feel hard. Its 115% effort so you won’t be able to hold it for more than a few minutes. Using my own FTP x 115% the best I’ve averaged that effort for is 6 minutes and I was trying bloody hard in that race (climbing race).

Are you on ZP? What does the power curve indicate for how long you’ve held 300W for?

I noticed a considerable difference going from my old Tacx one to the Direto with a reduction in FTP of around 20% following test. Managed to borrow a Stages power meter & the results were very similar to the Direto.

Talking to a few of the local roadies, consensus was this is fairly normal for any direct drive trainer as it isn’t making assumptions influenced by things such as grip/friction, tyre pressure, & even tyre size.

I reckon your best bet, OP, is to see if you can borrow those Vectors from your work colleague and establish whether your new trainer is accurate or not. If it is, you know there’s a good chance that your old Quobo was over-reading – if I have it right, it relies on bodyweight to hold the rear tyre against a soft roller, which means at least two variables in weight and tyre pressure, plus if you stand/sit.

If it’s not accurate, the new one, you can look at calibration or assume it’s potentially faulty. Or see if you can grab a ride on someone else’s notionally accurate smart trainer.

How quick are you in real life?

Are you on ZP? What does the power curve indicate for how long you’ve held 300W for?

That’s a good shout. I have just looked and 300w is 5 minutes.

But having said that, that 5 minutes of 300 watts on my old trainer. Given the difference in perception of power output I doubt it would be that high on the new one. I will report back after tonights effort.

I thought review/tests of the Qubo said it was inaccurate and slow to respond to changes. Body position changed power readings as its body weight that loads the roller, body weight and tyre changed power readings. A cheap trainer to get into smart/VR training.

Could it be that the Direto is more accurate and quicker to respond?

If you can borrow power pedals/crank etc it should be a quick diagnosis if the new turbo is wildly out.

Could it be that the Direto is more accurate and quicker to respond?

I don’t doubt that… the point I am making (probably badly) is that the Qubo seemed to replicate real world riding feel more closely than the direto.

I don’t doubt that… the point I am making (probably badly) is that the Qubo seemed to replicate real world riding feel more closely than the direto.

Fair enough, I would be pissed off if I had spent more money on a “better” trainer and it felt on/off rather than a smooth transition.

I’d be pissed too if I thought my threshold power was 260W and it’s actually 200W. Genuinely. I am currently too scared to figure out what my threshold power might be. I’m worried it would be… unremarkable!

My Direto feels good, smooth, not noticibly on/off. It’s a bit noisier than I’d like – a slight beep, beeeep, beep, beeeep from the stepping motor, but the fan I use more/less drowns that out once I’m up and running hot

Regarding FTP, it reports about 20-30w lower than my 4iiii left only PM. But this can be due to left/right imbalances to some extent (maybe I’m a bit wonky). So If I cared about Zwift numbers for racing that’s a bit annoying, but I don’t. I just do intervals if I go on it, so the actual FTP doesn’t matter.

On the whole, I like the device though.

Regarding FTP, it reports about 20-30w lower than my 4iiii left only PM. But this can be due to left/right imbalances to some extent (maybe I’m a bit wonky). So If I cared about Zwift numbers for racing that’s a bit annoying, but I don’t. I just do intervals if I go on it, so the actual FTP doesn’t matter.

Ive wondered if some people might be susceptible to an unconscious bias when using a single sided meter. In the same way that trainers that rely on bodyweight to push on the roller over read when out of the saddle might encourage that sort of riding. Or when riding we tend to do things that feel fast even when we know they’re not (skids, jumping rather than pumping etc).

Even if youre not thinking about it, could LH only power measurement convince your brain to favour that side?

Im living in blissfull ignorance with a wheel on trainer!

Ive wondered if some people might be susceptible to an unconscious bias when using a single sided meter.

Yep I’ve wondered the same, and think it might be true. I used to do a lot more on the turbo, when I was racing. And would hit it hard! And then race with the same PM outside. So would focus a lot on this magical number. So yeah could well be that you’re subconsciously doing whatever possible to get this number up.

Zwift bases your workouts on your FTP, so if you are using the FTP calculated using your old trainer which is probably over estimated, it is going to be harder. I’d run a FTP test on Zwift and go from there. I’ve the Direto and not had any problems. Do a warm up for 10 minutes or so, then use the elite app to calibrate, then resume zwift. The trainer needs 10 minutes or so to warm up before running the calibration. Then no need to do it again for a couple of months (depends how much you use it!)

Direto doesn’t “calibrate” by simply running the app, the setup of the turbo is not changed if the figure is +/- 5 points from the sticker. If there is a deviation from the sticker value, contact Elite, they will then send you a link to video where you carefully change the belt tension to get a figure that closely matches the sticker.

IMO It’s a good idea to refresh your FTP stat every ~6 weeks, it can vary up and down over time. For example, 95% of my best 20min effort was ~270W this time last year, I improved this over winter to ~298W before catching a prolonged lurgy. It dropped to ~250W mid summer, not helped by upsetting my left knee’s IT band and consequently having to ease up completely on threshold efforts, but having been back on Zwift since August it’s now back to ~270W.

I find the Zwift “ramp test” no good for giving me an accurate FTP estimate, because when fit I can normally at least complete the 380W interval, which means it will give me an estimate of 285W+ IIRC. I’ve not been able to hold 285W+ for 20mins since my March lurgy, but I’ve managed just under it (284/283W) in August/September respectively.
But IMO it’s ok as a very rough ballpark, plus I quite like using it simply for a short “structured” workout, which doesn’t leave me completely dead and I might do another ~20mins or so of turbo straight afterwards.

Sounds like you need to accept that your ftp has never been as high as you thought it was. Except willy waving it’s irrelevant anyway as long as you are Testing / training on the same calibrated trainer. Consistency is what you need not the ultimate number. A quick google tells you the qubo trainers are known give flatteringly high power figures.

I’ve no idea what you’re talking about, but it sounds like you’re just obsessing over numbers and perhaps the numbers coming out of the two trainers aren’t directly comparable? In which case – who cares, what’s important is the numbers today relative to the numbers yesterday rather than what your old one used to say, no?

I used to have this conversation on like a weekly basis with an ex-partner. She’d go to a clothing shop, try stuff on and be dismayed that she’d gone up a size, then next time we were out she’d be overjoyed that she’d gone down one. The notion that different manufacturers might have slightly larger or smaller interpretations of what a size ‘n’ might be never seemed to quite stick in her brain.

OP if its any reassurance i would say you old trainer was way off the mark. Virtually everyone i know of, myself included has said exactly the same thing when moving from low budget wheel on to wheel off trainers. I went from a tacx flow smart to wahoo kickr core and everything was harder and numbers were all smaller. Turns out my tacx was approx 20% out and the core was spot on, sadly i wasnt as great as i thought i was but your numbers will come back up as you get used to the increased effort. I now eliminate all zwift pr’s that predated the wahoo as they are all garbage.

Turns out my tacx was approx 20% out and the core was spot on, sadly i wasnt as great as i thought i was but your numbers will come back up as you get used to the increased effort.

Or you could just accept that your numbers are less impressive than they seemed, but they are what they are and you won’t be as fast on Zwift, though in the real world, it’ll make no difference at all.

Rider 1: ‘You seem slow today’
Rider 2: ‘Yeah, turns out my turbo was over-reading’

Apparently some geeks have developed a USB interface to allow you to tweak your numbers between the trainer and the game, so you could always just go for that. Meanwhile various virtual power users are powering around Watopia at a constant 10 w/kg and a sub-130bpm HR unmoved by the whole metaphysics of power thing.

I cant wrap my head around what that means in zwift racing. So my old trainer was potentially reading high. The trainer doesn’t have a power meter in it, so it uses a power curve submitted to zwift by Elite? I think that’s correct.
So if I was racing in cat C, and above 3.0wkg is that the trainer telling zwift its further along the curve than it actually is?

Anyway, I didn’t get to do the ftp test on the direto last night, so now it has to wait until tomorrow night.

I think this can be correctly filed under ‘first world problem!’

BTW I have just bought the new Novo Smart trainer which is a slightly different frame and the old Qubo power unit but with a proper switch to push it against the wheel, not rider weight. I’m very impressed about its real feel as I was expecting it to be rubbish after all the comments on here about wheel on trainers – however at no time did I feel the wattage was accurate. i haven’t done an FTP yet but figures of 360 w that I was sustaining for 5-6 mins felt very optimistic! Still fun though – afterall its a game right?

unmoved by the whole metaphysics of power thing.

And worse, the wheel on trainer would be reliant on consistent tension on the roller, tyre temp/pressure, slipping, the trainer mechanics etc…

Anyway, now you’ve got an accurate one and you can join the rest of us wannabe real-life racers in the C category wondering why you’re getting dropped on a 2% digital hill after yesterdays intervals.

I can’t wait for you to try erg mode, you think just pedalling the thing is hard on your legs wait until erg mode becomes a thing….

however at no time did I feel the wattage was accurate. i haven’t done an FTP yet but figures of 360 w that I was sustaining for 5-6 mins felt very optimistic! Still fun though – afterall its a game right?

It’s all fine until you arrange a date in real life with the hot chick avatar who you met on the Groovy Grafters Friday night group trundle and she drops you humiliatingly on every slight rise because she has an accurate power reading and you don’t 🙂