Drink driving technicality

If this is in Cambridgeshire your first challenge is even finding a police officer to arrest you. You could try calling them in advance, might improve your chances but I doubt it.

I would avoid getting into the drivers seat, putting the keys in the ignition, or making any ‘brum, brum’ noises.

This.

My brother got a 1 year ban for this. Drunk after a party he was just settling down to sleep it off in his drivers seat when plod knocked on his window.

This is the most STW risk averse question ever raised on STW.

HTF would anyone think this was ever a possibility?

Couple of points to cover here.

1. The car park of a hotel is a place to which at the material time the public has access, and is therefore, for the purposes of this legislation, a “road or other public place.”

2. Theoretically, simply being near the car with your keys in your possession, is enough to form  a suspicion that you are “in charge of” the vehicle.

3. A police officer, suspecting that you are unfit through drink or drugs to drive the vehicle and suspecting that you are in charge of the vehicle, could lawfully arrest you without even breathalysing you.

OR

4. Suspecting that the proportion of alcohol in your blood is over the prescribed limit, AND that you are in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or public place, the office can demand a breath test.

THEN

(i) if you take and fail the test the onus is on YOU to prove that you weren’t going to drive, which under the circumstances a hotel room for the night booked in your name and a simple explanation that you were fetching your bag should suffice

(ii) you refuse to take the test. Here’s where the trouble starts.  The test has been requested lawfully, and you, without good reason have refused to provide it. The offence is complete. It now no longer matters whether you can prove you weren’t going to drive, as the mere suspicion that you were in charge is enough to make the request lawful. It’s the refusal that is the offence, and this will result in a fine, a ban, and its own thread on STW.

As the person making charging decisions in custody areas I have tried to reason with and persuade  more than one person who has simply refused to give a sample as the circumstances of the “in charge” or “suspected to be the driver” could be challenged, but an outright refusal to provide in these circumstances will inevitably land in court.

Eh? I regularly get stuff out my car from my driveway when I’m in no fit state to drive it. That’s not even slightly illegal. 

would you be worried about sleeping in a camper van if you were pished? God forbid you are actually inside the vehicle then!!

Your driveway is not a road or public place

Mate of mine once parked his car in a hotel carpark, and after 2 beers decided to move it to a better lit parking spot as he was worried about thieves. Moved the car about 10 yards within the same carpark and as he was stepping out the police nabbed him. Slightly harsh, but thems the rules

Your driveway is not a road or public place

fair enough, but I’ve also done in hundreds of times in the past when it was parked on the street outside my old flat. Opening a car when pished is not illegal, driving it, or showing intent to drive it is

Without wanting to make the OP paranoid, but I once read of a case where a school teacher went to get some school books from his car (parked on the road outside his house) and was charged.

and was charged.

Was he found guilty though?

Take it to a Crown Court and jury and there is no way he would be found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

I am willing to bet that of all the horror anecdotes about people losing their licence for “just nipping to the car for my wallet/books/whatever” the majority  were actually convicted of failing to provide a sample  rather than for a proven substantive offence of being in in charge.

Surely this is why one employs a batman. Either he or the chauffeur will arrange things for you

Honestly, what a time to be alive

Its the morning after any kind of day/night out followed by hotel stay that is the risk.

Someone brought a breathalyser to a wedding I went to once and as everyone was packing the cars mid morning ready to drive home with our families, everyone had a go, every single person was still way over the limit despite being not even remotely ‘drunk’ or even hungover feeling, plus a good sleep, a big breakfast etc.

Plans were changed somewhat from a mid-morning departure to an afternoon departure.

Just scream at them that you have paid for a hotel room… And their wages.

The popo love that.

Without wanting to make the OP paranoid, but I once read of a case where a school teacher went to get some school books from his car (parked on the road outside his house) and was charged.

Were you reading viz

This is what left luggage is for.  I have yet to have a hotel that doesn’t offer to take your bags in.

Just scream at them that you have paid for a hotel room… And their wages.

The popo love that.

A colleague of mine once gave a detainee a refund of 20p as he was being booked into custody. 

I would never have even considered this a risk.

It’s a private car park. Get in and do some doughnuts round the car park

It’s a private car park. Get in and do some doughnuts round the car park

I hear the police love doughnuts. They’ll probably let you off then.

Or is that just in America?

If its a country pub, just go in the land rover and you’ll be fine. Just be sure to rebuild any walls the morning after.

Just say it’s not your car, you’re breaking in to steal the bag. 

Then they’ll be too busy to investigate and you can go back to the room.

Easy eh?

Is Plod likely to waiting in the car park? If he is ask him to get it out of the boot for you.

Was he found guilty though?

Take it to a Crown Court and jury and there is no way he would be found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

I have no idea, I didn’t follow it that closely, I just read an article in the local newspaper. FWIW, he lived on Deighton Road in Wetherby. For some reason, I remember that detail, despite it happening many years ago.

Opening a car when pished is not illegal, driving it, or showing intent to drive it is

I guess you are not an expert on the law because doing such a thing is illegal and I know someone who was caught and cautioned for opening the boot of a car to get his laptop while stinking drunk.

The chances of getting caught and done for this are small, but the OP is correct that it’s technically classed as what we’d call a “drink driving” offence.

Plug your phone into the car, open chatgpt, AI is now in charge of the vehicle therefore you can’t be.

Does your boot have a remote opening option on the key? If you’re that bothered, open the boot from the pub, leave the key with them for a sec and do your thang.

But it’s a non issue. ‘Low it.

“Whatever you do don’t ever buy a campervan! You’ll have a meltdown trying to think that through 😂 ”

…..

I’ve thought about this a bit when off grid camping in a lay by. I’m assuming lying on a bed, in pyjamas, whilst watching telly, is a reasonable defence???

Whatever you do don’t ever buy a campervan! 

Hold up, that’s a good point.  What if I can’t afford a hotel room and plan to sleep in my car?  And how’s that any different to pulling a campervan up for a night on the way somewhere? (phrased such that you’ve not booked a campsite for example).

Edit: snap jonnyboi

I’ve thought about this a bit when off grid camping in a lay by. I’m assuming lying on a bed, in pyjamas, whilst watching telly, is a reasonable defence???

I’ve always pondered that. I mean if you were drunk and stranded I thought if you sleep on the back seat rather than in the drivers seat with the keys in the ignition you’d have more of a defence/reasonable doubt…?

But then what if it’s cold so you turn the engine on to get a bit of heat?

To me ‘drunk in charge of’ is a bit of a problematic phrase… surely the offence should be driving whilst intoxicated, or intent to drive whilst intoxicated… or something, as to me, in theory at least, just having a set of car keys in your pocket whilst over the limit could be construed as a crime, which isn’t really right.

I mean, my car key is on the same ring as my house key, so drunk or not, the chances are I’ve got a car key about my person at all times when not in my house, which would technically make me ‘drunk in charge of…’?

I’ve thought about this a bit when off grid camping in a lay by. I’m assuming lying on a bed, in pyjamas, whilst watching telly, is a reasonable defence???

ive always thought it would be an interesting prosecution proving my intent to drive from my bed behind a solid bulkhead 4.5m away from the drivers seat – While asleep. 

Thanks for the replies – serious and not so. It is a slim, technical chance, but as people in the know know, it is actually an offence.

https://www.jmw.co.uk/services-for-you/motoring-law/drink-driving/drunk-in-charge

It’s good to hear from people who i believe to be police on here that the attitude test is a factor in this. But to get 10 points or a ban, and a big fine however unlikely is still worrying enough that I might consider taking steps to prevent.

Morning after is a concern, but not. I’m such a lightweight I’ll either have given up drinking, or be in bed, or both by about 8pm in all likelihood!

To me ‘drunk in charge of’ is a bit of a problematic phrase… surely the offence should be driving whilst intoxicated, or intent to drive whilst intoxicated… or something, as to me, in theory at least, just having a set of car keys in your pocket whilst over the limit could be construed as a crime, which isn’t really right.

Don’t worry, the relevant legislation is perfectly adequate without adding to or rewording it.  Think of the spirit of the legislation. It’s to prevent drunken people from killing others whilst on the road pissed. It isn’t intended to give a bored cop the excuse to go around breathalysing campers, or harassing teachers for leaving it until after dinner to do the marking. 

The legislation, policies and procedures around drink driving are some of the most stringently and carefully controlled bits of evidence gathering in the known universe. Every  time that the Mr Loopholes of this world get another throbber off the hook, the processes are revised and updated.  

What course of action would you take to make it clear you’re getting a bag out of a car in a car park, not attempting to drive under the influence?

And here we have a classic example of overthinking…. 

If you’re really worried about such an edge case, do you reckon you could rock up to reception before check-in and get them to hold your bag prior to coming back later, thus avoiding the need for you to interact with the car at all once shit-faced (only some poor receptionist)…

It is a slim, technical chance, but as people in the know know, it is actually an offence.

https://www.jmw.co.uk/services-for-you/motoring-law/drink-driving/drunk-in-charge

The piece you linked makes it pretty clear that getting something out of the car wouldn’t be considered drunk in charge.

You being in the car – you weren’t.

Where the keys were – hand not ignition

What you were doing – getting a bag

Whether there was any intention of you driving the car – you’re booked in the hotel so clearly no.

That’s not to say there’s a zero chance of some overzealous cop arresting you but I’d say there’s zero chance of a successful prosecution.

I suspect most people who find themselves in court for drunk in charge for these sort of circumstances

…are actually lying about the circumstances and their behaviour, and *were* either drunk-driving or about to be.

IDK. It’s an overnight stay — how much clobber do you really need?

Personally, I’d just go wearing three sets of clothes, plus my toothbrush wrapped in a carrier bag in my back pocket.

The outer clothes will get covered in football-match related detritus such as beer and pie crumbs. So they’ll be dirty.

The inner clothes will be next to your skin, so they’ll be dirty.

The middle clothing will be nice and clean, because they’ll have been protected by the inner and outer layers. The next day just put those back on, put all the dirty clothes in the carrier bag, and brush your teeth with the toothbrush. Job done, and no need to go back to the motor.

are actually lying about the circumstances and their behaviour, and *were* either drunk-driving or about to be.

Or at the very least aren’t giving all the details. Everyone knows a guy (or knows a guy who knows a guy) who ‘got done’ for something seemingly innocuous but there’s always more to it.

…are actually lying about the circumstances and their behaviour, and *were* either drunk-driving or about to be.

yes, like other motoring offences people are quite good at telling others all about just how unlucky they were and how it was a technicality that tripped them up not actually them being a dick.

You being in the car – you weren’t.

Where the keys were – hand not ignition

What you were doing – getting a bag

Whether there was any intention of you driving the car – you’re booked in the hotel so clearly no.

That’s not to say there’s a zero chance of some overzealous cop arresting you but I’d say there’s zero chance of a successful prosecution.

not zero – there’s no need to be in the car, nor for the keys to be in the ignition to be found to be in charge of it.  It’s the offence used when the cops find you too pished to actually get the key in the door lock (I guess remote central locking makes that less of an issue now); having a hotel room helps the defence but isn’t automatically sufficient – plenty of people have four pints in the hotel bar then decide to drive to a shop/pick someone up etc.  The bag helps.  The hotel room helps.  It’s all about showing no likelihood of driving whilst over the limit – not you were not trying to drive.

the camper van “issue” is a real problem although not as bad as some owners would make out, more so for folk sleeping in a car.  They’ll be making a judgement call on whether you were settled down for the night and not looking like moving, or if your explanation doesn’t stack up.  Clearly parked sensibly, segregation from the cab (or at least sleeping in passenger seat), not running the engine for heating, how you are dressed, a bed or sleeping bag, what you tell them you were going to do in the morning etc all make a more convincing story