just seen a interview with the giant/shimnao team, who have been riding the 2nd stage over the moss today.
the roads are too twisty/narrow/dangerous, with stone walls on both sides.......made me chuckle..... 😆
Ask Chris Boardman after the first stage in Ireland in 98 what he thinks about narrow roads with stone walls either side.
To be fair, stage 2 is likely to be highly stressful for the riders. Although we all love a spectacle (including the odd falling off), rider safety is important. The first few days of the tdf are anxious and a narroow, twisty course could wreak havoc.
in summary, i think they have a point, considering its so early in the race.
I wouldn't ride those narrow roads for the pitance they pay road pros.
Shocking i say.
I would be more worried about the camera crews and team cars and motorbikes, and barbed wire fence's, been a few accidents with them over the years.
Where was the interview?
stone walls on both sides.......made me chuckle
Only seems a couple of days ago we were all shocked by the death of a young woman who crashed into a stone wall.
[I]the roads are too twisty/narrow/dangerous, with stone walls on both sides.......[/I]
Well It's hardly the Isle of Man TT circuit is it? Theyr'e on pedal bikes FFS!
May be wrong but would say the potential for carnage on the strines road descending Eden bank is very high. Time will tell.
How about I put you in the middle of a pack of 170 riders going down there at nearly 50mph, and then come back and tell me that it's nothing to worry about?
Or, is this the reverse of the Audi S3 thread?
Do they do the TT in a group of 220 people now? Does it hurt less if you hit a wall at 40mph if you're on a pedal bike?
thye have a point. the roads on the first stage are very very narrow for a bike race the size of the tour. they are much steeper and twistier too. i wouldn't be surprised if a few favourites have crashed out before london 😕
I think I'd rather hit a wall at 40mph rather than 140.
Anyway, why is anyone questioning this at this stage of the game, surely It's been thought about already!
Ye, plus it's their jobs, career and livelihoods remember. A dangerous parcours is a dangerous parcours.
I'd be interested to hear what the riders actually said.
the roads on the first stage are very very narrow for a bike race the size of the tour.
This looks pretty narrow to me,with high conseqeunces if you get it wrong and I'm sure there are other dangerous bits too.Ride within your limits surely?
Mtfu?
Have you seen the tdf? They are all ****ing mental.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/may/09/wouter-weylandt-giro-ditalia
First few days are always twitchy - there are always lots of crashes. Can see why they won't be looking forward to it.
I want to see the race won with panache and on talent - not a race of attrition through crashes.
As for 'foreign' riders needing to MTFU I seem to recall our brave Wiggo making a fuss in the rain in the Giro in 2013 and all the Brit team generally wussing out in the rain in the World Championships in Italy when it pissed down.
Nationalities and jingoism aside however, as others have said, in a group, at speed, the consequences are massive and roadies generally have massive falls during a typical career - more nails than me for sure.
I think I'd rather hit a wall at 40mph rather than 140.
I don't think it makes any difference to the outcome!
Anyway Stage 5 will probably account for a few more riders!
This looks pretty narrow to me,with high conseqeunces if you get it wrong and I'm sure there are other dangerous bits too.Ride within your limits surely?
[Col de Sarenne]
I seem to remember a few riders made a big fuss about that one at the time too.
And ride within your limit? I'm not sure that's going to be a successful winning strategy. It's not Audax. The whole point of a bike race is you're always riding on the limit 😉 It's a very fine line before you go over it.
The casualty list from the narrow twisting roads of the Amstel Gold shows that trying to squeeze a big peleton onto narrow roads can be dangerous
they will just send a big break of no hopers up the road to be pulled in with 2 km to go 😉
few years ago the tour started in Brittany with a lot of narrow roads there - plenty of crashes. There were lots of mutterings about it at the time
This bloke abandoned
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[quote=gwaelod ]This bloke abandoned
Those Belgians should mtfu
Belgian...but isn't that the Dutch champs jersey he's wearing??? 😉
No .. Pro riders are the hardest b******ds in any sport !!!
I think respect is due.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_cyclists_who_died_during_a_race
Bring back Lance.
He could ride over anything... 🙂
I think it's more does stw have no idea shocker
Marcel Kittel says...
Giant/Shimano have got a point - compare the average British hill country road, which would have been built on the course of a packhorse track or drove road, winding and meandering all over the place, with a French road built by Napoleonic engineers, beautifully smooth and graded with nice even curves.... there's going to be carnage. I can't wait.
The worlds going mad! People have been cycling these hills for years (without helmets too) and its never been an issue. Now gormless idiots are taking up cycling rather than golf and we need an app to warn us hills are steep.. What's the world coming to!
As to TdF and MTFU. Most definitely, they were wearing full length lycra on what was a barmy Yorkshire summers day, soft foreigners
the roads are too twisty/narrow/dangerous, with stone walls on both sides.......made me chuckle.....
Well It's hardly the Isle of Man TT circuit is it? Theyr'e on pedal bikes FFS!
As aP and others have said, I assume youve ridden these roads elbow-to-elbow and wheel-to-wheel with 180 other riders at 40+mph. You have watched cycle races and seen how often there are crashes? Dead straight roads with grass verges can claim collar bones when there's nerves in the group.
Stone walls offer zero margin for error and limit line-of-sight unlike many alpine descents.
there's going to be carnage. I can't wait.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wouter_Weylandt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabio_Casartelli
I'm from Yorkshire and am going up to watch. Call me squeamish but I have no desire to see people crash and get injured, I've got the pins and surgical scars (hence the username) and don't wish that on anyone.
I've done Stage 1, the wrong way, and the climb out of Aysgarth following through Buckden is teeny, then as you pop over the top and head into Buckden down to Grassmere it's a teeny single lane too but a little more open. However they're doing it the other way and it's looks pretty much the same, I can see it being a bit of a squeeze yes, but some of the roads in the Dolomites they use for the Giro have been very similar width and very much poorer surfaces.
My concern would be the fat boys will not have enough room and it'll be strung out all the way from Grassmere through Hawes, gonna be excellent 😆
Certainly a few interesting squeezes in my neck of the woods on stage 1 that I can think of. For some reason instead of going straight up from Buckden up Kidstones they're heading out to Hubberholme, doing a tight turn there into a very narrow lane to rejoin. There are some tight corners on the descent from Kidstones too.
Even the narrow stone roundabout at the bottom of Skipton High Street strikes me as tricky as they could be all together and moving a bit at that stage with crowds and barriers to contend with.
thin roads on mountain stages are less of a concern, as the bunch has tends to thin out when the geography starts getting spiky. Thin roads on flatter stages, especially at the beginning of the tour will have every bugger and his dog trying to jockey his way through to the front of the bunch.
that's the problem right there. what are they doing with dogs in the peloton? Just ask Marcus Burghardt
What about wandering sheep? Plenty of those on the roads.
I've ridden those roads. no way I'd like to do them in 220 riders, all fighting for position. there will be major crashes on some of the descents.
But, it's what the get paid for, it's never going to be a safe sport, and they know that.
Does it hurt less if you hit a wall at 40mph if you're on a pedal bike?
Yes
never mind that, have you seen the prices the grabbing gits are asking for camping and hotels !!!!
Walls a problem ?
Biggest danger surely is riding around Winkobank
I think they have a point, those roads are very narrow for a full TDF bunch in the first week of the race. And I've seen the affects of what hitting a stone wall at 30mph+ with your face looks like and it ain't pretty.
I manage Ok on a ten-inch wide bit of singletrack. Surely these lads can muddle through on a road?
does it ruin the pointing?
I think a professional sports man complaining about his job is very very funny.
ton - Member
I think a professional sports man complaining about his job is very very funny.
I feel the same about people complaining about stupid little things like working at heights with no harness and messing round with asbestos.
Workers everywhere have a right to protect their safety. If one of these guys comes off badly it could be death or career ending. Which one would you be happy to see dead? Is there an acceptable level of death and serious injury in sport?
I think a professional sports man complaining about his job is very very funny.
Why?
It is their job, How many people go to work and expect to get hurt? Shall we do away with the factories act, send children back up chimneys? asbestosis, who cares....
There are risks in all jobs, the idea is to minimise them!
[quote=mikewsmith ]I feel the same about people complaining about stupid little things like working at heights with no harness and messing round with asbestos.
An interesting point - are sporting events exempt from HSE regs?
ton - Member
I think a professional sports man complaining about his job is very very funny.
Well, if for example they complained that they were being asked to ride their bikes or to race, yes, clearly that would be pretty funny.
If you asked them to ride their road bikes on a world cup DH course as part of a road race, them complaining would seem more reasonable, surely?
As usual, the middle ground is somewhere between but road racing should be made safe within the bounds of what is practical and reasonable. Road races will always have crashes but where possible the organisers should be trying to make the outcome of those crashes as insignificant as is possible within the bounds of what the sport inherently is.
I can see their concern about the narrow roads and drystone walls and I don't think they're unreasonable to raise it given that riders have died where safety concerns maybe haven't been properly considered.
Or to take another example, should Jackie Stewart have taken a dose of mtfu when he started campaigning for proper safety consideration in F1 or should he and the rest of the drivers have continued to accept that around 1/4 to 1/3 of them would die each season because the organisers didn't want to take safety seriously?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Stewart#Racing_safety_advocate
I also find this forum very funny nowadays.... 😆
And we find you funny too 🙂
As usual, the middle ground is somewhere between but road racing should be made safe within the bounds of what is practical and reasonable.
Yep. As mentioned, F1 went through this a few decades ago. The penalty for failure in your job should not be death. That's why there are runoff areas on motor racing tracks and tyre walls and the like.
"I manage Ok on a ten-inch wide bit of singletrack"
So you...just the one of you mind... on SINGLEtrack.
What happens if a riding pal comes alone side you and tries to get past?
He shouts "Elite rider on your left" and you move right.
The strines road will sort the men from the boys, but its only the first 2 stages, the last few years they have accounted for not very much. the riders will know the dangours and know how to ride safely, im sure there will be one or two accidents but isn't the always, didn't richie port ride of the road on a climb last year.
I think at this point the packs will thin out considarably the climbs are much steeper than most alpine climbs with tighter corners, and rather than there being a break away,a peloton and a drop off group there will quickly become several small manageable groups on this section inperticular. Or course i could be wrong.
You probably aren't doing 55mph though on the singletrack?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26442885
Its the trying to get the Tour caravan, with all the numerous support vehicles, plus all the riders, safely along these quaint country lanes that could lead to mild chaos.
Towards the end of a grand tour narrow roads can work OK in high mountains with small fragmented bunches of riders and a few support vehicles. Not so easy at the start, where everyone is relatively fresh and believing that they have a chance to wear the leaders jersey.
I think at this point the packs will thin out considarably the climbs are much steeper than most alpine climbs with tighter corners, and rather than there being a break away,a peloton and a drop off group there will quickly become several small manageable groups on this section inperticular. Or course i could be wrong.
and if you get stranded in the third group? How much time do you loose? what if there is a crash in the bunch and your stuck behind it? No one wants to be anywhere but the front. You can't win the tour in the first few stages but you can certainly loose it.
And there is always the prize of a malliot jaune for the first across the line.
The road conditions and the risks they pose are related to the attitude of the riders - if you want to risk it all or nothing down the Col du whatsaname on a damp day you have the chance of eternal glory and you risk it all. Or you look to play the long game to get the big prize.
I just think it is a stage like any other. The UK Olympics managed ok on tight roads didn't they?
Cancellara thinks not
What about wandering sheep?
Sniper in the helicopter - sorted.
I think at this point the packs will thin out considarably the climbs are much steeper than most alpine climbs with tighter corners, and rather than there being a break away,a peloton and a drop off group there will quickly become several small manageable groups on this section inperticular. Or course i could be wrong.
first week of the tour, EVERYONE wants to be at the front. it's carnage. that's what did for Wiggins three years ago.
to be fair to him I think he has a point, especially when you put his commnets in context.
I saw the press conference on local tv and what he said was that some of the narrow roads out in the country far away from the main bits were [b]dangerous due to a combination of stone fences very close and a nervous peleton all wanting the yellow jersey on the first day[/b]
I ride the stage 1 roads on a regular basis, have done Kidstones twice recently and they are not as scary as some of the Pyrenean descents, the on off the Aubisque is certain death in places, if you get it wrong. Kitell needs to MTFU
Dales Rider, did you do them with a couple of hundred mates all trying to go as fast as they can together?
The post above shows the comments in context, and in context they make sense and are quite rational.
I certainly don't want to see 2 or 3 top guys leaving the race before it gets to France because somebody has decided they are going yellow on day 1.
mikewsmith - MemberDales Rider, did you do them with a couple of hundred mates all trying to go as fast as they can together?
There is less than 200 in a tour, so not a couple of hundred. I ride occasionally with 30+
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That aside riding down hill is more dangerous for the average Brit when there are cars on the road, and getting it wrong can have fatal consequences. However in a pro tour the peleton strings out on a descent as there has always been an up before.
I dont thing the roads here are any more dangerous than this....
There is less than 200 in a tour, so not a couple of hundred. I ride occasionally with 30+
22 teams, 9 riders a team. 200 riders. are your 30 mates all going flat out, fighting for position, being told by their DS to move up?
it's laughable when people try to compare themselves to pro riders, and the pro peloton.
There will be big crashes on the first two days. Having seen first hand what happens when bones hit dry stone walls at 30mph + I really hope that there are no serious injuries, or worse...
Ask Jonny Hoogerland what it's like being booted off into a barbed wire fence, by a over zelous team car (IIRC) and maybe ask his opinion, I bet it's "yeah lets ride!!"
I'm up there again in a few weeks, the roads have been resurfaced and worn in a bit, I'll let you know what I find FWIW.
As for the widths and walls and fences, if you want to see what the Pro tour rides, head on over to the Doli's or Basque country or even Norther Belgium for that matter.. They ride the same type of roads we do.
I really don't think this will be an issue. All the pandering/patter is for the media to "big up" the Tour and gain coverage whilst at the same time warn other Teams to back off cos' "we're commin thro'" metality by the big Teams.
Roll on, I've pumped my 23mm's upto 110psi and I'm coming right up atcha...
warton - Member22 teams, 9 riders a team. 200 riders. are your 30 mates all going flat out, fighting for position, being told by their DS to move up?
it's laughable when people try to compare themselves to pro riders, and the pro peloton.
You are wrong on so many levels not the least your maths.
22 x 9 = 198
I have never tried comparing myself to the pro peleton.
For one I'm now too old and too heavy/unfit to go uphill at their pace, however I do know the roads they ride on both here and abroad and there is no significant difference in the danger levels descending them.
But I guess you know better
by a over zelous team car (IIRC) and maybe ask his opinion, I bet it's "yeah lets ride!!"
It was a media car, but yes, point still stands.
Agree with the rest of the points. There are 198 starters in the tour, comparing riding in a social group of 30 is laughable.
You are wrong on so many levels not the least your maths.
Seriously? I don't think people would dispute 198 being "a couple of hundred", which you said there weren't.
[i]Seriously? I don't think people would dispute 198 being "a couple of hundred", which you said there weren't.[/i]
I think if you were flying in a plane and had fuel for 198 miles and the airport was 200 miles away lots of those on board would be disputing it.
Riding in a social group of 30+ is actually more dangerous than riding in a large peleton.
Riding in a social group of 30+ is actually more dangerous than riding in a large peleton.
Jesus, are you joking? you must be, right?
Surley if any rider is worried they could drop back? If they choose to ride in the group then they must be happy-ish with the conditions. Oh, and before people jump in with 'it's a race', 'they're under pressure', 'they have to fight for the front' etc. etc. I know this, but it doesn't change the fact that they could drop back if they felt it unsafe.
Talking of expensive campsites.... My friend has one in Masham and said she was charging normal rates in the hope that people would recommend them to people so once the Tour has been and gone her business keeps going. 😉
chestrockwell - MemberSurley if any rider is worried they could drop back?
That is what they do, very rare that a road race is won on a descent, lost yes. Being able to descend well can pull you back into the race as many have.
Like most riders the pro teams have good descenders, not sure that Kitell is one of them so would belly ache.
Edit:- people are camping on my land for free, if you know me you're welcome. Doubt if I'll get many takers on here though as its obvious no one does.
however I do know the roads they ride on both here and abroad and there is no significant difference in the danger levels descending them.
I would suggest that there is a very significant difference.
You're going downhill well within your capabilities on roads that you know. You know they're open to traffic, you can change your line, drift across the road, brake, accelerate...
They're going downhill at the limits of traction and speed on roads they don't know, hemmed in by 197 other riders, countless cars / TV motos / spectators, their direction and speed are constrained by everyone else in the peloton and one mistake by another rider 20m away can cause a domino effect across the entire peloton.
About the one plus point in their favour is that they are pros and unlike the Mamil-fest that you see on the roads every weekend, these guys do actually now what they're doing.
I'd say that's very significantly different to you and a couple of dozen mates.
I know this, but it doesn't change the fact that they could drop back if they felt it unsafe.
Yep, just as someone on a construction site could refuse to go up some scaffolding, or a delivery driver could refuse to drive on certain roads.
I'm genuinely interested in how a social ride of 30 riders is more dangerous than a pro-peleton of 198 though?
Doubt if I'll get many takers on here though as its obvious no one does.
Eh? Surely you know who you know on here? Or are you saying that people don't "know" you because we're not agreeing with your peculiar opinions?
crazy-legs - Memberhowever I do know the roads they ride on both here and abroad and there is no significant difference in the danger levels descending them.
I would suggest that there is a very significant difference.
Why ?
Judging by your comments you have never seen a pro peleton descend as they dont descend en mass,
Do you actually have any experience or are you like most just making up things ? Bet you dont even ride a bike, just come on here to argue for the sake of it, is your job that boring
I'm genuinely interested in how a social ride of 30 riders is more dangerous than a pro-peleton of 198 though?
I can see his point on that one Nick. 30 riders of differing abilities riding as a group on open roads with the occasional idiot failing to call potholes or sprinting off for a road sign or wobbling while looking behind...
I'd prefer to be in a bunch of 198 pros on closed roads, at least you know that everyone else knows what they're doing!
Edit:
Do you actually have any experience or are you like most just making up things ?
I'm well aware of how pelotons work thanks, I've been road racing for 15 years.