I think a professional sports man complaining about his job is very very funny.
ton - Member
I think a professional sports man complaining about his job is very very funny.
I feel the same about people complaining about stupid little things like working at heights with no harness and messing round with asbestos.
Workers everywhere have a right to protect their safety. If one of these guys comes off badly it could be death or career ending. Which one would you be happy to see dead? Is there an acceptable level of death and serious injury in sport?
I think a professional sports man complaining about his job is very very funny.
Why?
It is their job, How many people go to work and expect to get hurt? Shall we do away with the factories act, send children back up chimneys? asbestosis, who cares....
There are risks in all jobs, the idea is to minimise them!
[quote=mikewsmith ]I feel the same about people complaining about stupid little things like working at heights with no harness and messing round with asbestos.
An interesting point - are sporting events exempt from HSE regs?
ton - Member
I think a professional sports man complaining about his job is very very funny.
Well, if for example they complained that they were being asked to ride their bikes or to race, yes, clearly that would be pretty funny.
If you asked them to ride their road bikes on a world cup DH course as part of a road race, them complaining would seem more reasonable, surely?
As usual, the middle ground is somewhere between but road racing should be made safe within the bounds of what is practical and reasonable. Road races will always have crashes but where possible the organisers should be trying to make the outcome of those crashes as insignificant as is possible within the bounds of what the sport inherently is.
I can see their concern about the narrow roads and drystone walls and I don't think they're unreasonable to raise it given that riders have died where safety concerns maybe haven't been properly considered.
Or to take another example, should Jackie Stewart have taken a dose of mtfu when he started campaigning for proper safety consideration in F1 or should he and the rest of the drivers have continued to accept that around 1/4 to 1/3 of them would die each season because the organisers didn't want to take safety seriously?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackie_Stewart#Racing_safety_advocate
I also find this forum very funny nowadays.... 😆
And we find you funny too 🙂
As usual, the middle ground is somewhere between but road racing should be made safe within the bounds of what is practical and reasonable.
Yep. As mentioned, F1 went through this a few decades ago. The penalty for failure in your job should not be death. That's why there are runoff areas on motor racing tracks and tyre walls and the like.
"I manage Ok on a ten-inch wide bit of singletrack"
So you...just the one of you mind... on SINGLEtrack.
What happens if a riding pal comes alone side you and tries to get past?
He shouts "Elite rider on your left" and you move right.
The strines road will sort the men from the boys, but its only the first 2 stages, the last few years they have accounted for not very much. the riders will know the dangours and know how to ride safely, im sure there will be one or two accidents but isn't the always, didn't richie port ride of the road on a climb last year.
I think at this point the packs will thin out considarably the climbs are much steeper than most alpine climbs with tighter corners, and rather than there being a break away,a peloton and a drop off group there will quickly become several small manageable groups on this section inperticular. Or course i could be wrong.
You probably aren't doing 55mph though on the singletrack?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26442885
Its the trying to get the Tour caravan, with all the numerous support vehicles, plus all the riders, safely along these quaint country lanes that could lead to mild chaos.
Towards the end of a grand tour narrow roads can work OK in high mountains with small fragmented bunches of riders and a few support vehicles. Not so easy at the start, where everyone is relatively fresh and believing that they have a chance to wear the leaders jersey.
I think at this point the packs will thin out considarably the climbs are much steeper than most alpine climbs with tighter corners, and rather than there being a break away,a peloton and a drop off group there will quickly become several small manageable groups on this section inperticular. Or course i could be wrong.
and if you get stranded in the third group? How much time do you loose? what if there is a crash in the bunch and your stuck behind it? No one wants to be anywhere but the front. You can't win the tour in the first few stages but you can certainly loose it.
And there is always the prize of a malliot jaune for the first across the line.
The road conditions and the risks they pose are related to the attitude of the riders - if you want to risk it all or nothing down the Col du whatsaname on a damp day you have the chance of eternal glory and you risk it all. Or you look to play the long game to get the big prize.
I just think it is a stage like any other. The UK Olympics managed ok on tight roads didn't they?
Cancellara thinks not
What about wandering sheep?
Sniper in the helicopter - sorted.
I think at this point the packs will thin out considarably the climbs are much steeper than most alpine climbs with tighter corners, and rather than there being a break away,a peloton and a drop off group there will quickly become several small manageable groups on this section inperticular. Or course i could be wrong.
first week of the tour, EVERYONE wants to be at the front. it's carnage. that's what did for Wiggins three years ago.
to be fair to him I think he has a point, especially when you put his commnets in context.
I saw the press conference on local tv and what he said was that some of the narrow roads out in the country far away from the main bits were [b]dangerous due to a combination of stone fences very close and a nervous peleton all wanting the yellow jersey on the first day[/b]
I ride the stage 1 roads on a regular basis, have done Kidstones twice recently and they are not as scary as some of the Pyrenean descents, the on off the Aubisque is certain death in places, if you get it wrong. Kitell needs to MTFU
Dales Rider, did you do them with a couple of hundred mates all trying to go as fast as they can together?
The post above shows the comments in context, and in context they make sense and are quite rational.
I certainly don't want to see 2 or 3 top guys leaving the race before it gets to France because somebody has decided they are going yellow on day 1.
mikewsmith - MemberDales Rider, did you do them with a couple of hundred mates all trying to go as fast as they can together?
There is less than 200 in a tour, so not a couple of hundred. I ride occasionally with 30+
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That aside riding down hill is more dangerous for the average Brit when there are cars on the road, and getting it wrong can have fatal consequences. However in a pro tour the peleton strings out on a descent as there has always been an up before.
I dont thing the roads here are any more dangerous than this....
There is less than 200 in a tour, so not a couple of hundred. I ride occasionally with 30+
22 teams, 9 riders a team. 200 riders. are your 30 mates all going flat out, fighting for position, being told by their DS to move up?
it's laughable when people try to compare themselves to pro riders, and the pro peloton.
There will be big crashes on the first two days. Having seen first hand what happens when bones hit dry stone walls at 30mph + I really hope that there are no serious injuries, or worse...
Ask Jonny Hoogerland what it's like being booted off into a barbed wire fence, by a over zelous team car (IIRC) and maybe ask his opinion, I bet it's "yeah lets ride!!"
I'm up there again in a few weeks, the roads have been resurfaced and worn in a bit, I'll let you know what I find FWIW.
As for the widths and walls and fences, if you want to see what the Pro tour rides, head on over to the Doli's or Basque country or even Norther Belgium for that matter.. They ride the same type of roads we do.
I really don't think this will be an issue. All the pandering/patter is for the media to "big up" the Tour and gain coverage whilst at the same time warn other Teams to back off cos' "we're commin thro'" metality by the big Teams.
Roll on, I've pumped my 23mm's upto 110psi and I'm coming right up atcha...
warton - Member22 teams, 9 riders a team. 200 riders. are your 30 mates all going flat out, fighting for position, being told by their DS to move up?
it's laughable when people try to compare themselves to pro riders, and the pro peloton.
You are wrong on so many levels not the least your maths.
22 x 9 = 198
I have never tried comparing myself to the pro peleton.
For one I'm now too old and too heavy/unfit to go uphill at their pace, however I do know the roads they ride on both here and abroad and there is no significant difference in the danger levels descending them.
But I guess you know better
by a over zelous team car (IIRC) and maybe ask his opinion, I bet it's "yeah lets ride!!"
It was a media car, but yes, point still stands.
Agree with the rest of the points. There are 198 starters in the tour, comparing riding in a social group of 30 is laughable.
You are wrong on so many levels not the least your maths.
Seriously? I don't think people would dispute 198 being "a couple of hundred", which you said there weren't.
[i]Seriously? I don't think people would dispute 198 being "a couple of hundred", which you said there weren't.[/i]
I think if you were flying in a plane and had fuel for 198 miles and the airport was 200 miles away lots of those on board would be disputing it.
Riding in a social group of 30+ is actually more dangerous than riding in a large peleton.
Riding in a social group of 30+ is actually more dangerous than riding in a large peleton.
Jesus, are you joking? you must be, right?
Surley if any rider is worried they could drop back? If they choose to ride in the group then they must be happy-ish with the conditions. Oh, and before people jump in with 'it's a race', 'they're under pressure', 'they have to fight for the front' etc. etc. I know this, but it doesn't change the fact that they could drop back if they felt it unsafe.
Talking of expensive campsites.... My friend has one in Masham and said she was charging normal rates in the hope that people would recommend them to people so once the Tour has been and gone her business keeps going. 😉
chestrockwell - MemberSurley if any rider is worried they could drop back?
That is what they do, very rare that a road race is won on a descent, lost yes. Being able to descend well can pull you back into the race as many have.
Like most riders the pro teams have good descenders, not sure that Kitell is one of them so would belly ache.
Edit:- people are camping on my land for free, if you know me you're welcome. Doubt if I'll get many takers on here though as its obvious no one does.
however I do know the roads they ride on both here and abroad and there is no significant difference in the danger levels descending them.
I would suggest that there is a very significant difference.
You're going downhill well within your capabilities on roads that you know. You know they're open to traffic, you can change your line, drift across the road, brake, accelerate...
They're going downhill at the limits of traction and speed on roads they don't know, hemmed in by 197 other riders, countless cars / TV motos / spectators, their direction and speed are constrained by everyone else in the peloton and one mistake by another rider 20m away can cause a domino effect across the entire peloton.
About the one plus point in their favour is that they are pros and unlike the Mamil-fest that you see on the roads every weekend, these guys do actually now what they're doing.
I'd say that's very significantly different to you and a couple of dozen mates.
I know this, but it doesn't change the fact that they could drop back if they felt it unsafe.
Yep, just as someone on a construction site could refuse to go up some scaffolding, or a delivery driver could refuse to drive on certain roads.
I'm genuinely interested in how a social ride of 30 riders is more dangerous than a pro-peleton of 198 though?
Doubt if I'll get many takers on here though as its obvious no one does.
Eh? Surely you know who you know on here? Or are you saying that people don't "know" you because we're not agreeing with your peculiar opinions?
crazy-legs - Memberhowever I do know the roads they ride on both here and abroad and there is no significant difference in the danger levels descending them.
I would suggest that there is a very significant difference.
Why ?
Judging by your comments you have never seen a pro peleton descend as they dont descend en mass,
Do you actually have any experience or are you like most just making up things ? Bet you dont even ride a bike, just come on here to argue for the sake of it, is your job that boring
I'm genuinely interested in how a social ride of 30 riders is more dangerous than a pro-peleton of 198 though?
I can see his point on that one Nick. 30 riders of differing abilities riding as a group on open roads with the occasional idiot failing to call potholes or sprinting off for a road sign or wobbling while looking behind...
I'd prefer to be in a bunch of 198 pros on closed roads, at least you know that everyone else knows what they're doing!
Edit:
Do you actually have any experience or are you like most just making up things ?
I'm well aware of how pelotons work thanks, I've been road racing for 15 years.
Yes, I guess you're right in that context, plus the traffic issue. I suppose I'd say it's a different danger, you're not pushing the limits on a social ride in the same way.
Judging by your comments you have never seen a pro peleton descend as they dont descend en mass,
They pretty much do - just strung out in a long line, which serves only to exaggerate the speed differences into corners, plus means each one is using more and more of the road, leaving a smaller margin for error. Look at how many of them just ride off the side of the road! Add in the nervousness of the first week, the virtual guarantee of rain (it is in the North after all) and the likelihood of at least a few mishaps is very high indeed.
But yes, they could all just sit up, bimble down the road and sprint for the town sign at the bottom. In fact, why bother racing at all?
Surely the limits and constraints of the space available will shift the focus from out-and-out speed to racecraft and tactics? It doesn't have to be sheer speed that makes a race interesting.
I am riding over the strines on Saturday, I shall report back if I think it is dangerous.
obviously I will be travelling at speed........ 😆
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crazy-legs - MemberI'm genuinely interested in how a social ride of 30 riders is more dangerous than a pro-peleton of 198 though?
I can see his point on that one Nick. 30 riders of differing abilities riding as a group on open roads with the occasional idiot failing to call potholes or sprinting off for a road sign or wobbling while looking behind...
I'd prefer to be in a bunch of 198 pros on closed roads, at least you know that everyone else knows what they're doing!
Edit:
Do you actually have any experience or are you like most just making up things ?
I'm well aware of how pelotons work thanks, I've been road racing for 15 years.
So you at least have qualified your abilities, and race I wont ask you to prove it I trust you even though I dont know you. But others make total bollox statements, I've ridden up and down a good few of the French cols and ride the Dales on a daily basis, I could say I've ridden in 200+ Peletons and ridden with winners of the Tour and the Vuelta. But maybe I'm making that up or do you trust me ?
That said I have descended off Kidstones I think 5 times this year and dont think it any more dangerous than descending the Aubisque which actually scared me at one point, riding at [inst speed you think I travel at] with 2 foot high concrete blocks protecting you from a couple of hundred [OK so it may have only been 150] of foot of vertical drop.
Edit:- BTW in a social ride I always go to the front on a descent as it is the safest place, wouldnt want bringing down at [again insert speed] it hurts.
Yep, just as someone on a construction site could refuse to go up some scaffolding, or a delivery driver could refuse to drive on certain roads.
Yes, just like that. What's your point?
Edit:- BTW in a social ride I always go to the front on a descent as it is the safest place, wouldnt want bringing down at [again insert speed] it hurts.
Damn right! I'm not following someone else's lines unless I absolutely trust them, but that's the advantage of a social ride. In a race, a lot of people are wanting to do that, and that's the trouble!
I don't know what "knowing you" has to do with anything, nor having ridden with pro riders. FWIW, if it helps qualify my statements to you, I have also done my share of road racing, although don't do much these days, and have ridden regularly with various pros, including TdF riders.
That said I have descended off Kidstones I think 5 times this year and dont think it any more dangerous than descending the Aubisque which actually scared me at one point
How much of that is about knowing it though? There's a descent near me that's rather steep, I'm confident I can let off the brakes and pedal into it, because I know it's pretty straight and there's nothing to get you into trouble. I don't do it regularly (it's a terrible waste of altitude in a very fast, but dull descent), but I still know it. Would I ride it the same way if I'd not seen it before? No. Would I ride it differently in a race? Yes, even though I know it.
