My old workplace had a similar “3 periods of sickness” rule. When it was brought in it made a noticeable difference to the attendance of my deputy team leader who up until then used to take 1 day a week off sick, regular as clockwork. Funnily enough, his health picked up remarkably under this new regime.

I had a return to work interview after an accident and my boss told me to promise that I’d never be off sick again. 😯 🙄 I said of course I couldn’t promise that, no-one could. He didn’t seem to think it was unreasonable. Muppet.

She’s in sales – what sort of union could she join to get their support?

anyone with young kids suffers under this type of policy as they catch loads and share the wealth with the rest of the family

for coughs and colds I go in until they send me home (for some reason they don’t want to work next to someone with a streaming cold sneezing constantly)

today I’m off with tonsillitis, first question at the Doc’s I got asked is whether I worked in an office with air conditioning/ recirculated air….

now on a course of antibiotics

I wonder if they want me back in the office tomorrow?

totalshell – Member

lets be clear you can be disciplined and you can be sacked for being legitimately off work sick.

Oh I would have had fun with that when I was a union steward.

yes yo can have robust policies but to sack someone for being off sick is automatically unfair dismissal. Perhaps you have just missed out some step in the process or perhpas a non unionised workplace. You can remove people who are unfit to do the job but that is not the same as sacking people for being legitimately off sick.

The last place I worked had a very similar policy to stop people taking sickies when they weren’t really ill. Apparently 40% of “illness” occurred on a Monday or Friday!

Apparently 40% of “illness” occurred on a Monday or Friday!

Given a 5 day week, and even distribution of illness then every day would be 20%, so Monday and Friday should naturally equate to 40% of the time taken off ill.
Unless I’m missing something?

We also talk about setting “improvement plans” which make me giggle. What can I do personally to improve my “sickness levels” as it is beyond my own direct control. Also, the whole verbiage of plans, I feel like strangling them and saying ok then where is the plan, all you are doing is setting is a target, plans are there to help you achieve targets.

Try running a small business with staff taking the piss – at times I daren’t fart for doing the wrong thing and some of the excuses I’ve had to stomach for sickness and lateness would have been laughable if they weren’t so detrimental to our business – then we get shafted hard by solicitors when trying to buy advice… 🙁

Unless I’m missing something?

Possibly just the fact that the above ‘statistic’ is often used as a bit of a joke statistic. Unless I’m missing something also? 8)

edit: I only knew it was a joke because I saw it here first

Wish this would happen at my company, got two slackers who take days of as they please

I’d quite like to get my lunch hours back to take a break/do some exercise, and not be expected to work evenings and weekends.
Agree companies should not have to put up with skivers but I’d like to see employers keep to their end of the bargain too. E.g. if I work a weekend, time in lieu please. Or pay me for it…

TJ.. your wrong.. sorry…
you can be sacked even if genuinely ill, and people with long term illness or long term sporadic ilness are dismissed.

if a company has followed the appropriate disciplinary process and due care and consideration has been taken at every stage then an employer is perfectly entitled to terminate employment.
with a work force of over 150,000 in the UK and recognising one of the largest trade unions i suspect that if the process was illegal you d have heard about it by now.
the wording of discplinary action was clear.. failure to fulfill a contract of employment.

Totalshell – sorry – I am right.

There is a difference between sacking people who are legitimately off sick which is what you claim and dismissing someone for being unable to fufill their contract of employment.

The former is illegal, the latter can be done. Hence what I posted above

You do not use disciplinary process for people of sick -it needs a different process

Perhaps you have just missed out some step in the process or perhpas a non unionised workplace. You can remove people who are unfit to do the job but that is not the same as sacking people for being legitimately off sick.

So, TJ, what is the difference between ‘removing’ and ‘sacking’?

TJ is right, you can’t sack people for being off sick. Well you could, but you would likely lose the tribunal case. What is legal is to stop paying them sick pay after a certain amount of time, which can vary. I think it is 6 months in a 3 year period in the public sector, possibly a lot lower in private.

These RTW interviews and the like are the first step in the due process of what is (not very euphemistically) called “managing them out of the organisation”.

They are always entitled so statutory sick pay, but the government pays that.

There is a difference between sacking people who are legitimately off sick which is what you claim and dismissing someone for being unable to fufill their contract of employment.

only in the wording, the result remains the same

You’d be hard pushed to suggest that 3 days off in 12-months constitutes an inability to fulfill their contract unless someone was dumb enough to agree that as part of their contract.

My (public sector) employer uses the 3 instances in 3 rolling months and 10 days total in a rolling year system.

This will trigger a “cause for concern” interview and any subsequent sickness (whether related or not) will trigger an “improvement warning” which lasts for 6 months, sickness during this period triggers a “first written warning” which lasts for 12 months.
Any further sickness during the 12 months will trigger a “second written warning” which lasts for 6 months, sickness during this period results in a “hearing” which may result in dismissal.

At any time after 28 days long term sickness the employee may be summoned to a workplace meeting, if too ill to attend, then line manager plus HR person have the right to initiate a home/hospital visit, this is irrespective of any medical advice or certification.

There is a review at 3,6,8 & 12 months (which the employee does not attend and to which they and their medical care team have has no input) at any of these reviews there is a decision on “can continued absence be supported” purely on the basis of a “business case” rather than a “disciplinary issue” if the decision is “No” then it usually results in termination of employment.

This convoluted and slightly intimidating procedure (for both staff member and line manager – I mean who wants to force a home visit onto a person with severe illness !!) was negotiated and agreed by a large public sector employees Trades Union

Not to mention any stress related absence as being recorded on your HR records as “mental illness”, also TU sanctioned 🙄

Tesco used to stop overtime if you were off too much. I got attacked and needed a week off (week = three 5hr shifts as i was part time) went back for a week, then needed another week after an operation on my broken nose. I was banned from overtime for three months. However, i discovered that if i’d taken three weeks off straight i’d not have been banned as that is long term sick. But because i went back and did my work i was punished.

COme and work in the Social Care sector – we have terrible sickness issues and our impotent policies and senior management mean people just get away with it. And we pay them for it!

I have often used a thing called the Bradford Factor to manage absenteeism, its simply the square of the number of occasions multiplied by the number of days, and works on the basis that single days may well be avoidable absences, whereas longer periods probably aren’t.

So for example 10 single days = a factor of 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000
As opposed to 1 period of 10days = a factor of 1 x 1 x 10 = 10

Two ways of doing it, one being to reward those whose attendance is deemed to be good or better. Personally I view showing up for work as being a minimum requirement and therefore don’t go with bonuses or whatever for merely doing what is expected.

Generally I’ve interviewed all staff below the average of the group, along with all of their absence returns over the period. Usually, the process of interview alone has been sufficient to achieve a modification in behaviour. However on one occasion there was an individual who I highlighted as having consistent time off with a “stomach problem”, and therefore recommended she took the data to her GP and got a check up. It transpired she had bowel cancer and because of these actions it was identified early enough to be treatable.

Last time I did it I was managing a business that initially had absenteeism in the order of 10% and in this way we reduced that to about 1%, with a total of one dismissal, the diagnosis mentioned above, and no other negative outcomes.

I very much doubt if any company would institute a disciplinary hearing without the right of reply or defence, unless of course they want to be paying your Mrs out at a tribunal sometime later. Best bet for her is to keep a contemporaneous diary of events, it can be used as evidence later, but to listen to what is being said before passing judgement.

Where I work, 3 separate occasions of sickness within a 12 month period would trigger a meeting with line manager and HR – not disciplinary, just a “you’ve had 3 absences due to sickness, is there anything going on we need to know”. An absence management plan may be put in place if deemed appropriate. If that was then breached, then disciplinary process could be initiated.

I agree the short self certified absences tend to be regarded as more suspicious than a block of time signed off by a doctor – it becomes very difficult to discipline someone under those conditions, as it also does with someone who has a long term health condition which is known to the company when they employ that person.

I worked in the healthcare sector too bigdaddy – the level of absence was quite shocking, and p1sstaking was fairly widespread and blatant.

I worked in the healthcare sector too bigdaddy – the level of absence was quite shocking, and p1sstaking was fairly widespread and blatant

Totally agree (unfortunately) 😕
When I was working in public healthcare sector staff would openly joke about taking their “statuatory sick days” and work schedules would be planned to take “Friday Flu” and “Monday Migraine” into account

my practical experience i’m afraid begs me to differ to TJ’s response. I know of people with chronic health conditions who have been dismissed as they can no longer fulfill or be likely to fulfill any part of thier contract. I have to say that the company went to extraordinary lengths to provide support medical and financial support and thier local HR managers played the system to extraordianry lengths to maintain thier employment status.. but the end result was always the same they became ex employees.
and frankly if you ve been off work for longer than a year with no medical optomism of a return within 12 months what would you expect your employer to do? I have seen a lad who was very badly injured in a car accident have surgery paid for as his condition was worsening whilst wating for the nhs he came back to work after about three years and i,m aware of a lady with a proper bad back who was absent for over two years who had physio from the company. and ive personnally arranged for private counselling for alcholics. it works both ways.

Totalshel – the points you have missed

1) its not disciplinary
2) its not dismissal.

Yes people who are not able to fufill their contracts can have their contracts terminated as I said right from the beginning. This is very different from sacking / disciplining someone for being off sick. Its a different process. You have to jump thru differnt hoops

You also need to be aware of disability discrimination act

Really, TJ is right on this (well he has to be occassionally 😀 )

I was given a disciplinary hearing in the NHS, due to going to my grandmothers funeral and not giving them 7 days notice. I suggested to them that next time a member of the family is in the process of passing away I would ask them to hold off for 7 days so I could inform the trust.