Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • Cycling and insomnia
  • flanagaj
    Free Member

    I have posted about poor sleep when cycle touring before, but I wonder if anyone else has struggled with insomnia and exercise. I have definitely concluded that cycling causes me to suffer with insomnia. Last week I did 2 mid week 1 hour threshold sessions and then a 2.5 hour ride on Saturday and 3 hours on Sunday. Neither of which were hard going or beyond what I can normally do, but sleep on Sunday night was woeful and it just manifests from there on. I ate a good recovery meal when I got straight in to ensure I refuelled, but made no difference.

    HR on Sunday night had come back down to normal levels so not an elevated HR keep me awake. Just find that cycling really does give me too much stimulation and although I’m tired from the exercise, I just feel wired and can’t switch off.

    Have booked a Forth Edge blood test, but at age 48 and after 30 years of riding I am seriously contemplating giving it all up as I have had chronic insomnia since Feb and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

    I’ve googled and ‘normal’ folk seem to find exercise helps their sleep, but keen to hear from anyone who may have had a similar experience and if so what was the outcome.

    I’m quite a wired person anyway and wondered whether cycling just adds to the stress?

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    How much sleep are you actually getting? Maybe you are just getting anxious because you’re not getting the “regulation” 8 hours.

    shooterman
    Full Member

    I found last summer when I was getting mid week rides in after work I had terrible trouble sleeping.

    Mentioned it to a colleague who is a fairly serious runner and she also found late evening exercise ruined her sleep.

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    n0b0dy0ftheg0at
    Free Member

    If I go too mad after ~1930, whether that’s a number of sub 3min efforts or something longer around threshold, more often than not it takes hours for me to wind down and I’ll be even more of a zombie the next day.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Tell us about your post ride stretching and rehydration routines OP.

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    Usually, when sleep is ok I can go to bed at 10 / 1030pm and sleep through until 7am without any problems.

    After a long ride I will always come home and stretch / drink a couple of pints of water.

    I am always done exercising by 730pm in the week. Mid week sessions though can be sometimes 3 * 10 mins at 105% FTP

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Tends to be later/harder rides that disturb my sleep. Especially if I’m with mates as they tend to involve hop based rehydration as well.

    Are you using caffeine energy drinks – I’m getting increasingly sensitive to caffeine and any caffeine – or, god help me, even chocolate – after 5-6pm and I get very disturbed sleep

    hunta
    Full Member

    I definitely have issues getting a full night’s sleep when I exercise in the evening. Any option to try riding before noon for a week before deciding to throw it in altogether?

    You’ll presumably want to retain fitness in some way, and I’d imagine it’s worth assuming initially at least that it’s exercise rather than cycling per se that’s the issue.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    OP do the insomnia and exercise go hand in hand?

    If not then surely exercise is exacerbating the insomnia and the latter is what you should be addressing?

    Any anxiety etc?

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    OP do the insomnia and exercise go hand in hand?

    If not then surely exercise is exacerbating the insomnia and the latter is what you should be addressing?

    Any anxiety etc?

    I do suffer from mild anxiety and sometimes I think the exercise can heighten the flight or fight syndrome as well. I have also read that exercise is a stressor and if you are already stressed from other factors it can cause quite a load on the adrenal system.

    breninbeener
    Full Member

    I have postwd on these threads before, but i thinkk its a cortisol response. The body releases it as you are stressing your body and the after effects arw poor sleep.

    I take a hayfever tablet (loratadine, the one that makes you drowsy) if ive had a v hard day or a late intense session.

    I also struggle to rehydrate, so have a constant cycle of drink and pee lots all night. This doesnt help. I can have 5-6 proper full bladder pees in the night if i have strugglwd to rehydrate.

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    but i thinkk its a cortisol response.

    Is anything you can do about the cortisol response?

    chakaping
    Free Member

    I think you are on the right track OP.

    I’d just say try using rehydration tablets, stretching more and make sure your bedroom is cool enough.

    Also, if you’re not tired then stay up a bit later rather than laying in bed unable to sleep.

    brakes
    Free Member

    I’m lucky in that I’ve never had any problems sleeping, but maybe that makes me a good control. I’ve recently been doing a lot of late evening (9/10pm), hour long interval sessions and it has impacted my ability to get to sleep, and then restlessness during the night. So sometimes I don’t go to bed until 1/2am and have to make it up with a nap the next day. Rehydration tabs help, as well as a shower.

    TiRed
    Full Member

    Night before a race I seldom sleep. Even a 12hr. But normally I sleep well. Lack of training man’s minor sleeping as well now – about 6.5hrs. Normally an hr longer.

    I read somewhere don’t lie in bed if you can’t sleep, get up and do something. That works for me.

    w00dster
    Full Member

    15 years of limited sleep for me. Don’t read this as a sympathy mail, this is just how it is.
    As a former rugby league player I had a neck injury, about 15 years ago. It was two separate physical injuries, but was a build up of damage that resulted in two occasions where I had to stop playing. At 32 the doctor diagnosed degenerative disc disease in my upper neck, I don’t remember all the detail now. NHS were spectacularly useless in helping me, pretty much saying I needed to lose weight (15 stone and less than 10% body fat) and to stop playing rugby, anyhow that’s a story I’m not going down. I followed the physio and steroid route and took the decision not to fuse the bones. This worked to an extent but there is still pain and lack of movement which are exasperated by lying in bed.
    On top of that, for the last 3 years I’ve had frozen shoulder. The combination of the neck injury and the shoulder means pretty much no sleep. I’ve been through the nhs for my shoulder, done my physio. I’ve got more movement in my arm than I did, but the pain is still very bad. I sleep from about 11 until 1am, then I’m awake from 1 until about 5. I tend to fall into a good sleep from 5 until 6ish.
    My shoulder means I can no longer mtb, I just don’t have any grip in my left arm, after 30 mins I’m in too much pain. Recently it’s also affected my road riding, during the ride it’s fine, but an hour or so later I’m in a lot of pain.
    I had a hydrodilation injection and a steroid injection last year, that worked wonders, unfortunately with lock down I’ve not been able to get it this year. Hoping to get it done in July once the clinic is open. Also thinking of getting another MRI to see if there is other damage in the shoulder as frozen shoulder isn’t supposed to last this long.
    Of a night time when lying awake I try and stay of any devices, but it’s not easy lying in bed, especially when my wife is snoring next to me. I consider myself fortunate knowing there are other people in a lot worse position than me. Before lockdown I’d still be training most days, even planned on racing again this year, but I can’t see me doing that now.

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    I remember SiS doing a nighttime recovery drink with magnesium in it? Helped the muscles to relax after hard exercise.

    I guess the fact that it’s been discontinued suggests it maybe didn’t work, but there’s still chat online about magnesium as a recovery supplement. Maybe just chuck some extra cashews and spinach into your recovery shake?

    yourguitarhero
    Free Member

    From the way you write about your bike rides, it seems you’re focusing on the training side of it a lot? When I write about a bike ride I write about the nice things I saw when I was out and about – bike riding is relaxing for me. Not saying that’s better or worse, just different.

    Maybe the intense thought processes involved with the focus that attitude to riding requires make it hard for you to relax after? You could try doing some yoga/breathing/meditation/random other hippy stuff after you get home and put the bike away, drink some water and change out of your cycling clothes?

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    Exercise always reduces my anxiety, but I’m not working towards any particular goals, just for enjoyment.

    Might it not be helping anxiety if you are thinking about it too much?

    speedstar
    Full Member

    Cortisol is cummulative. Life stress + increased bike stress will take its toll eventually. Are you doing enough lower intensity riding? The tendency with training is to hit things fairly hard a lot of the time but the more we stay at near threshold levels during exercise the more stress hormones we produce. I would suggest making one of your rides intentionally a “smell the roses” one where you set an alarm on your computer to not allow you to go even into zone 3 for HR. Either that or take an extra rest day. You don’t say what other life stressors you are experiencing but if there are some, sleep is even more important to reverse the cycle you are describing.

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    Life stressors? Sadly, one of those individuals who really finds it hard to switch off and not be thinking of something. My wife says I am like a race horse as if my ears are pricked back and ready to go. The more I think of it the more I think that + 8 hours cycling/week is just putting too much of a stress load on the body.

    Could be that I was able to get away with it when I was younger, but as you get into your late 40’s your recovery time slows and you naturally find it more taxing to do the same amount?

    speccyguy
    Free Member

    3*10 at 105% is a hard session, basically FTP test level of stress, so I’m not surprised you end up a little less than relaxed.

    (FTP protocol being 20 mins at 105 or 2*8 at 110. Where FTP is what you can achieve at most, not what you can do after work on a Tuesday. And a couple of watts either way on what you think your FTP is can make a big difference between a 102% session and 105%)

    I do a couple of high stress sessions a week and also suffer poor sleep sometimes. Never usually with dropping off but more often not being able to stay asleep. My solution (after all the warm down, relaxation, general sleep hygiene) is to have a good low GI supper and fluids just before bed.

    If you wake up hot it can be a sign that your body is trying to replace glycogen but doesn’t have enough water to do it.

    Anyone doing structured session like your 3*10 owes it to themselves to look after themselves and educate on what the effects are (on them). If the session loses you sleep then do something different.

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    If you wake up hot it can be a sign that your body is trying to replace glycogen but doesn’t have enough water to do it.

    I usually sleep cold, but have noticed that when I can’t sleep I feel hot. It’s only when I feel my temperature drop off that I then find the urge to sleep arrives.

    For me a structured plan also adds it’s own set of stressors as you are conscious of missing then when you sleep so bad that you know doing the workout will just add to the insomnia.

    jameso
    Full Member

    I have postwd on these threads before, but i thinkk its a cortisol response. The body releases it as you are stressing your body and the after effects arw poor sleep.

    I take a hayfever tablet (loratadine, the one that makes you drowsy) if ive had a v hard day or a late intense session.

    Yes, this, ime/from what I’ve read and experienced.

    I am always done exercising by 730pm in the week. Mid week sessions though can be sometimes 3 * 10 mins at 105% FTP

    Too hard and too late in the day for me to sleep afterwards. Look up Cortisol and stress responses. It’s all normal, if you stress yourself (as training should) you won’t sleep as easily afterwards, you’ll be revved up for 12+ hours afterwards as part of the metabolism or recovery process.

    And 2 hard sessions a week is (imo/ime) more than you need to get fit for distance riding/racing. Maybe right if you were moving up the road categories, but you and I are both 40+ and not racing for 2-4 hours. I’d do 1 session a week, before mid-day, over a 8-12 week block if I was building towards an event or a particularly hard ride that had a timed element to it. Any more than that is counterproductive as I’m too fatigued to do the other things I need (inc recovery). Accept that you’ll not sleep as well after the session and try Nytol as a natural aid, make up for it the night afterwards to get the recovery you need.

    Alternatively, what are you training for? Just ride.. I really believe that some basic structure and understanding how your body reacts can turn everyday riding into something that gets you to a really good level of fitness, then the 1x a week turbo block is just the fine tune for when you want top end ability. That’s not something you can maintain easily anyway so I don’t tend to bother unless I have something worthwhile motivating me. just fwiw / ymmv etc

    jameso
    Full Member

    For me a structured plan also adds it’s own set of stressors as you are conscious of missing then when you sleep so bad that you know doing the workout will just add to the insomnia.

    Better off de-structuring and learning how you react and cope. Fit things in in cycles rather than to a calendar. Weekly cycles might be convenient in life but flexibility means doing the session when you’ll actually gain from it ie if you’re tired and can’t give it 100% on the turbo, try a longer warm-up or a freshen-up ride outside first, or skip it for another day – just stick to the pattern not the daily schedule. “You can’t train a tired muscle” and recovery is when the gains happen.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    I’m probably saying things you already know, but insomnia is often largely a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    So when people do things to prevent it, sometimes they are having a beneficial effect but often it’s just as much a placebo.

    If you feel like you’re taking action to take care of yourself, you’ll be more relaxed and maybe get out of the “can’t get to sleep” worry cycle.

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    All the posts make a great deal of sense and my first port of call is to just get my sleep back on track. Once the insomnia goes past a few days it is very difficult to get things back on track. I’ve literally been on a week on / week off with it. Training goes ok, but sleep gets worse as the week goes by until eventually the insomnia kicks in and I spend a week feeling shattered with no sleep and then it ends and the cycle repeats.

    I’ve not tried the nytol or hayfever tablet after a long or hard session but will give it a go. Sleep is the most crucial thing as without it you don’t recover and I suspect your cortisol levels remain high because you are just adding to the stress.

    alric
    Free Member

    I’m a bad sleeper normally, but after a really hard day’s walk or ride, I hardly sleep atall.
    I guess its cortisol levels.and tried various herbs etc to lower that, and gave up alcohol for 4 months, and thought I was gettting somewhere. But then I fell off the bike, so been on medications since,and its hard to get comfortable in bed
    My sleep also tends to be between 11-1am and 5-8am
    I notice a shoulder pain when I wake up at 1am ish, so need some painkiller before I can sleep more
    One thing I’m bad it, is getting out of bed when not asleep. This idea of having a connection in your brain, between the bedroom and sleep, and nothing else- is weird- but its one I obviously dont have, and I dont know that I can make one

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    yourguitarhero
    Member

    From the way you write about your bike rides, it seems you’re focusing on the training side of it a lot? When I write about a bike ride I write about the nice things I saw when I was out and about – bike riding is relaxing for me. Not saying that’s better or worse, just different

    This makes sense at least as part of the story, and possibly hints at the core part?

    As a (recent years) confirmed (and wretchedly) insomniac I’ve learned to tailor my evening rides to a gentle bimble as stressing it and coming home hot and hyped up just had me spending midnight hours cooling off. Early morning rides are infrequent (partly because insomnia leaves me dead at 5am) but when they’ve happened I invariably get a better night’s sleep following.

    I’m quite a wired person anyway and wondered whether cycling just adds to the stress?

    Possibly, but I’d be first thinking back to February when this began, and then ticking off any life/work/health/schedule/relationship changes that may have occurred back then? Rule out stuff, then focus on what’s left?

    Insomnia for me is caused by a lucky bag of tangled mental, emotional, practical life-sapping (both real and suspected real) crap which unfortunately includes ongoing injury. So worrying about not being able to cycle* (from ongoing injury) adds to the problem.

    * cycling has (habitually and traditionally) been my main stress-reliever/happy place whether bimble/explore or caning it on a fast commute. Am on the verge of necessarily quitting it but it’s hard to let go. Living on a hillside and cycling from the door doesnt help injury rehab. Also not currently able to lift the bike into the car and go somewhere more flat.

    Mind and body. Where the body fails the mind needs to be on top form to recover the body. When the mind is failing, exercise can play a part in recovery but it can easily become an obsession and then tip the balance.

    reeksy
    Full Member

    Really interesting posts here.
    Having enjoyed various sports over the years I’ve always found exercising late in the day or not exercising at all, messes with my sleep/moods/relationships/life.
    I moved to Australia 15 years ago and the culture is much more suited to exercising early and that makes a huge difference for me. It’s quite normal to be up at 5am and in bed by 9pm. My long commutes start at 5.30am, my winter MTB park rides start at 6am at the latest. Caffeine stops before lunch.

    Mounty_73
    Full Member

    I suffer with sleep after riding. I have been out this morning, I was finished by 11ish and my sleep will be scatty tonight. I get tired quickly, in bed by 10pm fast asleep then wake up constantly, making me feel crap tomorrow.

    I drink plenty and eat pretty good, so I put mine down to stressing the body, but I have been increasing either the mileage or intensity.

    I will then get out riding again in the morning and go through almost the same again, but come Monday night my sleep should be okish.

    Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    Is this just a Sunday night thing OP? Did you drink on the fri and Sat night?.

    I used to sleep poorly on a Sunday night, but don’t drink any more, and don’t get the fear on a Sunday night, the issue has gone away.

    Just a thought.

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    I used to suffer from a poor nights sleep after long or very hard rides, but it was always just the one night and I would sleep really well the night after. However, the one night now seems to just keep going and I am starting to feel like I have lost the ability to sleep. I am sure it’s now become psychological which is making the problem much worse. Can feel tired out and really ready for bed, but sleep just doesn’t come until stupid hours.

    I do have a couple of beers on Friday / Saturday, but I have found that even during the week when I don’t drink my sleep is still rubbish.

    Need to have a serious rethink as sleep is far more important than riding my bike and it can make you feel really low when you have consecutive bad nights as you struggle to function at work …

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Need to have a serious rethink as sleep is far more important than riding my bike and it can make you feel really low when you have consecutive bad nights as you struggle to function at work

    That’s an issue then. I usually get just 5-6 hours sleep per night and I function fine on that. I’ve been doing so for 30 years. If I go to bed too early – before I’m actually tired – I get worse sleep as I lie awake anxious that I’ve not got to sleep yet. I was going to suggest trying this, just to see how you felt after a few nights, but if it’s actually having an effect on your work and life then perhaps not.

    didnthurt
    Full Member

    Op, I hope that backing off the training a bit helps you sleep. The lack of sleep my wife and I had when when the kids were born turned us into zombies.

    When I can’t sleep I do self hypnosis, sounds a bit w$$ky but works for me and it’s free!

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    Is it possible you’re dehydrated (water + electrolytes) when you’re going to bed? Even light dehydration leaves me completely unable to sleep. Have historically struggled to get to sleep following hard exercise, but the moment I paid more attention to my liquid intake and chucked an electrolyte tab in the bottle the problem was solved.

    Summer temperatures don’t help sleep when you’re still cooling down a couple of hours after exercise either. Try a thinner duvet.

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    I’ve come up with a plan that I am hoping helps.

    1) Going to bin the training plan as that is certainly adding to the stress.
    2) Going to go back to how I used ride. That approach whilst maybe not the most efficient has enabled to cycle tour a great deal and I didn’t feel obliged to ride the bike.
    3) Need to start making a conscious effort to stop stressing the small stuff in life that you have no real control over. This certainly does not help matters.

    I am confident that I can get this sorted out with resorting to sleeping pills.

    bloodyshins
    Free Member

    My experience is only with proper MTB rides, not indoor training or anything. It takes me hours to mentally come down after a ride, even if I’ve physically exhausted myself, I’m still mentally buzzing for ages. It’s a great feeling and one of the reasons I love MTB but I can’t do it in the evening if I have work the next day unless I have some chemical help to get me to sleep.
    I think it’s a fairly common thing talking with my riding mates. Can’t you adjust the timings of your rides so you have longer to wind down and get all your endorphins back to a normal level?

    flanagaj
    Free Member

    Can’t you adjust the timings of your rides so you have longer to wind down and get all your endorphins back to a normal level?

    During the week it’s either before work or after work and exercising before work is a real struggle for me as my energy levels seem to be at their highest at around 4pm where as first thing before breakfast there is nothing in the tank and it then leaves me pretty washed out for the whole day.

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