What is this thread about – questioning the credence of those that don't go along with the evolution theory or having a pop at Christianity?

Personally I believe in a God who is almighty and way beyond what we can comprehend. I also believe that as human beings we have a spiritual awareness. For me, riding my favourite trails and taking in the wonder of all of nature I have no problem believing that there is a God who creates.

Dunno if it's convenient or not, don't know if it's correct or not.

But if I'm going to read these threads and ponder the issues, which I end up doing, I'd rather ponder what people really think, not what the narrow minded assume they think.

Given that evolution is pretty much directly at odds with the creation myth, its probably about both. I find it interesting to watch the mental hoops that Christians and other religious types have to jump through when confronted with evolution. It's only a theory, but its a cracker..

Kenny, its strangely convenient that the tricky bits get left out, that the garden fete version of Christianity gets chosen over the appreciably trickier to defend full on bible as word of god version. I don't assume to know what people think, any more than people assume what god thinks..

crikey – maybe the issue isn't the issue 🙂

Fair enough mate, I'm not meaning to have a dig at you.

I just wonder though, is it that tricky bits get left out, or is it that these bits aren't actually tricky?

someone said to me once 'we are living in the creation now, its not finished yet' i think they were getting at that evolution is the divine creating tool.

or is it that these bits aren't actually tricky

Slow down bikemonkey, let's get Genesis verse 1 resolved first.

Hmm quite a few issues here.

Starting with thye easier stuff… Crikey – I agree with you… it's not OK to take just the bits of the Bible that you like or fit in with you ideas. I don't believe I do that. It IS (in my view) reasonable to use your loaf in interpreting the Bible. The OT, for example, contains history, law, poetry, prophecy etc. Lots of pictures and images, in keeping with certain literary styles of the times.

Kenny Senior – Christian just means followe of Christ – I think that I am correct in saying that this term was coined before the gospels were written and circulated.

The OT is not at all disregarded by Christians as just background history. The NT is seen as the fulfilment of the hundreds of prohecies in the OT that point to Christ. It all fits together.

Junkyard… don't be in too much of a rush to misinterpret and then dismiss. Your critique needs taking on point by point – too lengthy for this post. I take it that you are of the 'this is all there is…' philosophy – aka atheism.

Cards on table; I'm a dyed in the wool, never had any religion other than at school, atheist type.

But, but but….

I'm fascinated by the way that Christians manage to accomodate what seems to me to be totally opposite themes into their religion.

I am often far to scathing about it, and my real attitude is one of tolerance, but I just can't see how 'you' can deal with, for example evolution when the bible has an alternate theory/myth.

It seems to me to involve some kind of mental gymnastics, and some willingness to ignore the bits that don't fit.

I would enjoy the chance to kick this subject around; I won't change your view, and you won't change mine, but as an intellectual exercise…

the bible in its current form, in my view, is faulty evidence for a fair argument. lost in translation/editing as a power tool. christianity has been too much of a political force in the past. we all know what happens to documents that need adjustment to fulfill aims, step forward tony and george w.

crikey – no offense meant at all, but it's not an intellectual issue because it takes faith to believe in God not intelligence – by that I don't mean that all Christians have low intelligence, far from it, I just mean that you can't argue the point from an intellectual stand point.

crikey – no offense meant at all, but it's not an intellectual issue because it takes faith to believe in God not intelligence – by that I don't mean that all Christians have low intelligence, far from it, I just mean that you can't argue the point from an intellectual stand point.

I kind of appreciate that, but are there issues or themes that cause you to stop and think?
Is there a point at which your faith and society/science/stuff seems to clash?

I'm sure that there are, but I'm most interested in how you cope with it from an intellectual point of view. I'm sure it's not as simple as saying' nah, not having that'; are there issues that have …wobbled.. for want of a better phrase, your faith?

I just mean that you can't argue the point from an intellectual stand point.

Convenient that isn't it?
And funnily enough, a statement I only ever hear made by the religious.

The rest of us are quite happy to use reason and intellect all the time, not just when it suits us.

Sadly, fundamental religious belief is becoming more and more prevalent in this country.
The only way to prevent this pernicious nonsense from undermining our hard won freedom of thought is to defend the rights of the ignorant to believe in creationism, whilst destroying their arguments logically and scientifically.

Faith is one thing and organised faith or "religion" quite another. Religion is just like any other organisation managed by humans. Power corrupts and… .

XTC God, can you link vids on this site?

Crikey – I'm certainly no expert on evolution, though I am starting to read up about it.

For me it all came about in reverse… having grown up an atheist, I had some God encounters/experiences that turned my life around and things have never been the same since. I now try and work out how all this fits.

Quote from Stephen Jay Gould, America's leading evolutionary biologist (not a believer AFAIK)…

based on the views of evolutionary biologists 'either half my colleagues are enormously stupid, or else the science of Darwinism is fully compatible with conventional religious beliefs – and equally compatible with atheism.'

Two surveys amongst active scientists, one in 1916, the other in 1997 – the figure for the number that believed in God (that is personal and answers prayer) remained a consistent 40%, with 45% (in 1997) believing that there is no God. The big statement from Dawkins is that 'most scientists don't believe in God'. Something of an overstatement!

As I understand it, many (from both sides) seem to agree that science neither proves nor disproves the existence of God.

Sadly, fundamental religious belief is becoming more and more prevalent in this country.

I would argue that this is not true. Fundamental religious belief is becoming more noticeable and noticed, but not more prevalent; if anything, fundamentalist beliefs are ever more under siege and are ever more disdained by the 'normal' religious folks.

I see more and more 'ninjas'* (ladies in full 'Islamic' style headwear that covers their faces and only shows their eyes) than I did when I was growing up, but I think this is an example of increasing liberalism rather than a sign that I'm going to have to convert soon.

*ninjas as a description came from a mate who hails from Pakistan…

I would suggest that it is not the aim of science to prove or disprove the existence of God, and I know the work of Steven Jay Gould and the arguments he has had with others regarding evolution and so on.

The number of scientists believing or not in God would seem to me to be a more accurate representation of the society and schooling that they recieved rather than an implicit correlation between science and religion?

I'm more interested in …matters of Faith.. I suppose, the kind of questions and evidence that make you stop and think 'Hold on, this doesn't really fit with what I believe to be true, How can I accomodate this into my Faith?'

I'm asking fairly/very personal questions and I appreciate that public mountain bike forums are maybe not the place for this, but I'm interested nontheless..

Scientists can take the view that they are getting to know the work of God through their own work. Quantum physics and evolutionary theory being descriptions of features of the universe God created. Conflicts between science and religion have arisen simply because of poor human interpretation of God's message as it is poorly transcribed by humans in the Bible. The error of creationists is that they decide what God did rather than just using their eyes and observing.

Just a view worth expressing that isn't necessarily my own.

I see more and more 'ninjas'* (ladies in full 'Islamic' style headwear that covers their faces and only shows their eyes) than I did when I was growing up, but I think this is an example of increasing liberalism rather than a sign that I'm going to have to convert soon.

Sadly, I see it as a retrograde step in the battle for sexual equality.
And people are too scared to do anything about it because it 'might offend someone's beliefs'.
Well it bloody well offends mine.
See also fundamentalist Jewish sects who believe that women should be segregated from men (Channel 4 news, Friday night), Catholic Pro-lifers, etc, etc.

Are we really going to fall for this crap all over again?

Scientists can take the view that they are getting to know the work of God through their own work. Quantum physics and evolutionary theory being descriptions of features of the universe God created. Conflicts between science and religion have arisen simply because of poor human interpretation of God's message as it is poorly transcribed by humans in the Bible. The error of creationists is that they decide what God did rather than just using their eyes and observing.

In other words, regardless of evidence to the contrary, people who hold that view will simply manipulate and interpret every logical argument that dismissed the existence of a god as proof that their exists one!
Rather than being some pseudo intellectual attempt at logic it should be seen for what it is, delusion of the highest order.
As Hitchins said. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Agreed, but our society is more and more secular and will become evermore so…

I am aware of the subjugation of women via which ever religion is in vogue, but this is changing, it just takes time. I work with women who, 10 or even 5 years ago, would have been married off sharpish, no question. Now the matter is one of negotiation, of a careful dance between parents and children, and in the next generation will be even less so.

The big vector for this change is education and more specifically the earning power of women in an increasingly equal society; it's tough to be the patriarch when your wife can kick your butt in terms of earnings…

I'm with Hotfly on this, once you have come to believe the difficulty is working out how to fit it all together.

Remember that the "it doesn't make sense to rational thinking people" argument only makes sense based on what you understand. For a huge amount of time the idea of a creation out of nothing would have seemed both impossible and irrational. Now of course it makes complete sense (if you are a quantum physicist of course).

That doesn't mean heads can be stuck in sand with loud cries of lah lah lah not listening. It just means that the spiritual side shouldn't always be binned immediately because it can't be fully and completely tied up with the physical.

I'm more interested in …matters of Faith.. I suppose, the kind of questions and evidence that make you stop and think 'Hold on, this doesn't really fit with what I believe to be true, How can I accomodate this into my Faith?'

There are contradictions within this statement, however if what you are saying is the you look to "bend the facts" to accommodate them within your faith then don't be surprised if you find what you are looking for.
In my opinion this is hardly an enlightened view.

I'm just asking…
I don't believe in any of it, but I'm intrigued as to how people who do make sense of the way that new discoveries must challenge their beliefs…

Seems like not many want to share, which is fine…

I lived in a house with a group of "God's work scientists", delusion as you say Surfer but they found it both a crutch and inspiration to the point that their work and religion became their life, with no space for anything else and therefore no challenge to their beliefs.

it's tough to be the patriarch when your wife can kick your butt in terms of earnings…

i dont find this crikey my mrs earns about 4times what i do yet its me that the family look to for most things.

Jesus (I understand the irony in using that as an exclamation as an atheist) I wish my wife earned 4 times what i did, and so would Jimmy Choo…

Serious question about something I hear a lot (and I've seen again on this thread)- how can someone be a Christian but not believe in Creationism? I might be missing some semantics here – but I thought creationism was fundamentally the belief that the "world" was made by (a) god? If you don't believe in that, is that not fundamentally contradictory to the christian religion?

To be honest, I have no understanding of the mindset that allows religious belief – it's entirely alien to me – but on the surface at least, a Christian that doesn't believe in "creation" just comes over to me as someone who's sweeping the "difficult stuff" under the carpet.

Tis easy, the Biblical days of creation are just a metaphorical summary of 15 billion years of God's work.

Seems like not many want to share, which is fine…

I suspect it is a combineation of factors including there njot being all that many and for those that do stick their heads above the parapet a rather visceral blasting by the (irony mode on) holier and more intelligent than thou (irony mode off) atheist brigade. They get an even harder time on here than the Marin owners! 🙂

I think creationism holds that the earth was created exactly as set out in (English translations???) of Genesis, i.e. in 6 x 24 hours periods. Not all Christians believe that that is, word for word, exactly how it happened. Creationism is not as simple as 'God made the world'.

just comes over to me as someone who's sweeping the "difficult stuff" under the carpet.

I thought that was part of religion in the first place…?
A mate of mine at school was from a very Christian family – church several times a week (twice on Sunday), no sex before marriage, all that kind of stuff. Anyway to any difficult questions about origins of life, the universe etc he'd come out with the stock answer – "God moves in mysterious ways" or "it is not for us to question the ways of the Lord" or some such crap. Basically (to me) it said "I don't know the answer but rather than admit that I don't know I'm just going to pass it all over to God". The "cop-out" answer.

All that is all very well, and it's easy to take the piss, but I'm genuinely interested in the thought processes involved. Maybe this isn't the right place…

I personally struggle to believe that we are just here by accident, that everything was formed by this big bang thing and that we evolved. The only thing I have ever seen evolve is a tadpole and it seems to be on repeat.

But on the other hand I also find God, creation etc hard to believe.

This sort of discussion will never end because we simply cannot understand everything about life.

Perhaps the question shouldn't be how we were made (evolved if you want) but why?

If we evolved we have a good understanding of why as we understand the process of evolution. If god I assume you understand your reason..we both know why we just dont agree.
Evolution has some pretty serious and weighty divergent evidence to support it and you have faith.

@crikey
8) not gonna lie to you it is fairly handy.

If there is a god-can I have the lotto ticket that wins for £90 million next week and I will build you a shrine and worship everyday!

Homer Simpson said: Alla, Jesus and Budha I love you all!